1929 Ford Model A Coupe Build

It's the new year and I'm starting my build in earnest. I've also had time to research and start to refine my plan.
Engine....going with a sbc 327
Transmission....Camaro T5 with a NWC S10 main shaft & tail housing,
Rear end....Maverick 8"
Front end....Heidt's Superide. I'm going with the Heidts because this is going to be an everyday driver. So I'm looking for more creature comforts.
Wheels....15x6, maybe 15x8 rear. True Spoke... Chrome Hot Rod Wire Wheels - Raw F Still haven't decided on white wall or black wall.
Right now I'm waiting on a welder to arrive (just ordered it). Need to brace the inside of the cab before I remove it. In the mean time I'll spend the time getting a little more organized. Trying to stay within the one side of the garage.

Here's what I started with.
http://s5.postimg.org/n5rdp6b3n/IMG_0034.jpg http://s5.postimg.org/dmhovpnlf/IMG_0035.jpg http://s5.postimg.org/95pbx19df/IMG_0036.jpg
http://s5.postimg.org/4nw7wf837/IMG_0556.jpg http://s5.postimg.org/6uvv6lnzn/IMG_0040.jpg http://s5.postimg.org/fomrnpayb/IMG_0041.jpg

Progress pic's
New work bench. Going in and out of the basement got old fast.
http://s5.postimg.org/m8lgt652r/IMG_0014.jpg

http://s5.postimg.org/3vkvilulv/IMG_0008.jpg http://s5.postimg.org/erc9dyfjn/IMG_0017.jpg

Surprise rust.
http://s5.postimg.org/mze6yy7g3/IMG_0011.jpg

I'll be watching your progress, have fun.

Looks like a super good start,high five bud.

Sounds like fun times ahead........

Slow week on the car. Did get a few things done. Got the roof fabric off, removed the steering column, took out the braking system.

http://s5.postimg.org/4y4pc094j/IMG_0003.jpg http://s5.postimg.org/m6ftuxmib/IMG_0007.jpg

Went scrounging through junkyards the other day. Trying to find a Maverick rear end, plus a couple of other odds and ends. Through Craigslist I now have a B-W T5 out of a Camaro. Tag Number 1352-175. If this website is to be believed.....Identification Key to Borg-Warner T5 transmission ID Tags
Then I have a GM 1988 F Car B9 Racing 5.0L V WC Code-U Rev.-2.76 1st-2.95 2nd-1.94 3rd-1.34 4th-1.00 5th-0.73. B9 I believe = LB9, not sure what Racing means. So now my first question. If what I've found is correct. Maverick rear ends came geared only 3.0 and 2.79. I'm going by memory here. Tires I'm thinking of using are 15x6 front and 15x8 rear. Engine will be either a SBC 327 or SBC 350, Between 280hp and 300hp. Would a 3.0 Maverick rear end work ok? What can I expect from it?

Question #2. How much horse power is too much? This little '29 coupe weighs 2400lbs soaking wet. I'm looking at this as more of an everyday driver vs. a street racer. Those days are far behind me. I've looked at sbc's running anywhere from 270hp to over 350hp. Should I be looking around the 280hp to 300hp range?

I've had a couple 8" rears with factory 3.25 gears, not real common but out there. With the five speed a lower ratio would be preferable for drive-ability. A 3.55 would be even better. Since the 8" is common to the popular Mustang and even Falcon/Comet crowd parts are still plentiful.

One comment on the Camaro derived T5, you may already know, they are designed to be rotated, I think something like 17 degrees so use an unusual bell housing and the tail shaft housing would have a canted rear mount if you tried to set it up in "conventional" manner. Also, relative to placement in a model A the shifter (also canted) would end up under the seat, or well back with buckets.

WC T5s can take 300 ft. lb. pretty well, so watch the torque rating of the engine, not just hp

Bob, thanks for mentioning torque. I should have remembered that. Will definitely keep that in mind.
As far as the T5 is concerned. I should have mentioned I'm looking for a nwc s10 t5. I plan on using the main shaft and tail housing to straighten it up and move the shifter forward ~9". If I can only find a wc s10, then I will go with a gps speedo.

Looks like a really solid piece to start with, good luck!
Rich

GADad,
To run the numbers take (MPH x Rear gear x 336 x OD ratio)/ Tire Diameter Inches to give you cruise RPM. For example, at (70mph x 3.00 x 336 x 0.73)/30" yields 1717 RPM. The "336" is a unit constant, dealing with differences of miles to feet, hours to minutes & diameter to circumference. You want your cruise rpm to be at/near the bottom of the torque band on your engine so that you're not having to shift down to 4th every time you get to a hill, or even to pass on the interstate without flooring it. If you get your cruise rpm too low your mileage will actually suffer on all but near level terrain, but your top end will be awesome!

rspears, thanks for the formula. I'm going to have to sit down and play with some numbers.

I got ambitious today and decided to get the old engine pulled. Turned out to be a bit more work than I was expecting. But then again everything takes longer when you're working by yourself. Tomorrow I will make a rolling stand for the motor. Since my work area is small, everything must be on wheels. If I have time tomorrow I will also lift the body off of the frame. Hopefully sometime next week I can send the frame off to be blasted. Then I will have a better idea of what I'm working with. But from what I've seen of the frame. It's not bad at all.
I had the engine just about out when I remembered to take some pic's. :LOL:
http://s5.postimg.org/5ib1u4h0z/IMG_0718.jpg http://s5.postimg.org/n9mo8kwfn/IMG_0719.jpg http://s5.postimg.org/w77e5xovn/IMG_0720.jpg

It's hard to believe I'm going to put a sbc back in that little space. :LOL:
http://s5.postimg.org/osi2dk303/IMG_0010.jpg

Quote:

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Originally Posted by GeorgiaDad

It's hard to believe I'm going to put a sbc back in that little space. :LOL:

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How about a 4.6 Mod Motor, or a 5.0 Coyote, or a 5.0 SBF? It's not a '29 Chevy, is it? :confused:;):LOL:

You may want to rethink the 15" wheels. Tires in that diameter that have a street rod vibe are harder and harder to find.

Warning--Long post.

rspears, I found this calculator... Gear Calculator I read on another site my cruising rpm's should be between 1800 & 2100. Does that sound about right? If so, a Maverick rear end isn't going to work with the T5 I have. Does this sound about right? I got it off another website.

"Selecting the Proper Rear end Gear Ratio
RESOURCES:

Selecting a rear end gear ratio (ring & pinion set) to provide the desired highway cruising speed, 60-65 MPH, for a modern hot rod.

How:

A number of factors must be considered when selecting a rear end gear ratio (ring & pinion set). Tire diameter, transmission choice (with or without overdrive) and desired highway cruising speed.

Tire diameter is the first consideration because styling and available space within the wheel opening dictate the size of tire / wheel combination that will be chosen for the car. The choice of a direct-drive (1to1) or overdrive (usually 30%) transmission will determine drive shaft RPM at cruising speed. A highway cruising speed of 60-65 MPH is considered a good target speed

Engine RPM at cruising speed should be maintained between 1800 to 2100 RPM. Lower RPM at cruising speed will produce a vibration that is often mistaken for drive shaft imbalance. This vibration is actually caused in a typical V8 engine by acceleration of the piston on a downward power stroke that is only cancelled out by other cylinders doing the same in rapid succession. This only occurs when the engine is revving in excess of 1800 RPM. This vibration isn't noticeable when the engine is idling or accelerating through the gears but is often misdiagnosed as a drive shaft out of balance of out of phase.

The proper rear end gear ratio can be selected using the following simple formulas whether using a direct-drive (1to1) or overdrive (usually 30%) transmission."

There are more formula's in that post. I can post them if anyone is interested. But I just started punching numbers into the Gear Calculator I posted above.


So at this point I'm wondering what to do. While I was wondering around the salvage yard today, I realized there was a boat load of Chevy S10's. 15 as a matter of fact. So.......

Plan A-- I did some reading and now I'm thinking of using a S10 rear end. Preferably a GU6-3.42 gear ratio. Matching that up with the Camaro T5 I have.

Plan B-- If I stick with a Maverick rear end (which I haven't found yet), I will need a different T5 transmission.

So let me just think out loud here and ya'll tell me if this would work.
I came across a 1993 S10 W/T5. It was a V6 with a GU6 rear end. I ran the numbers through the calc. and came up with 2022 rpm's @70mph. Anyone have any idea how the S10 T5 would hold up with a mild sbc? Also would the bell housing match up to the V8?

Now the wild card in all of this is tire size. From reading on the web, I thought the only tire size that would fit a fully fendered Model A was a 15" front, Maybe a 16" rear. Anyone have an idea on the biggest tire I can fit in this car? I'm going with a Hiedt's Superide front end and Maverick or S10 rear. Worse case is I wait to get the front suspension installed then do a mock-up.

Time to update my build. Cold temp's chased me out of the garage for a few weeks. But I'm back at it again.

I built the wheeled body frame. The cars body is now on an adjustable wheeled frame. This way I can move it around. Removed the front end and rear end. Now the frame sits on 2 modified furniture dollies. This way I can move anything anywhere to work on what I need.
http://s5.postimg.org/obcd5fn03/IMG_0021.jpg

While I was at it, I built a cart for my mig welder.
http://s5.postimg.org/ecreiydkj/IMG_0028.jpg http://s5.postimg.org/uqbe23tpv/IMG_0024.jpg http://s5.postimg.org/yb79lby9f/IMG_0027.jpg
Cost me 2 2x4's. I had everything else lying around.

I've been knocking the rust off of the frame with a wire wheel on my grinder. Getting the frame ready to take to the sandblaster. Hope to get it there by next week.

As I was getting ready today to weld on some temporary cross braces. I checked the frame for squareness. I leveled the frame front to back and side to side. It's perfect. But....Here's what I don't understand. The c-channel Is different top to bottom. The frame is level front to back, side to side, and the sides are level too. But when I went to measure for the cross bracing, I noticed the top and bottom lips are different widths. :confused: The bottom lip is 3/16" smaller than the top. Except at the front horns up to where the body mounts. Is this normal? In the pic's below I moved the tube steel to show the difference.

http://s5.postimg.org/n3yfd7wvn/IMG_0017.jpg http://s5.postimg.org/n6ib020j7/IMG_0018.jpg http://s5.postimg.org/i40z59r8z/IMG_0019.jpg
http://s5.postimg.org/7wifsv50z/IMG_0020.jpg http://s5.postimg.org/obcd5fn03/IMG_0021.jpg

Check frame specs at Wescottsauto.com


Tech section has detailed drawings of frames--------

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jerry clayton

Check frame specs at Wescottsauto.com


Tech section has detailed drawings of frames--------

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Thanks for the link. Printed everything off and rechecked all measurements and for square. It's spot on. The only thing off is the bottom of the "C" channel. It's shorter than the top. I'm worried that when I go to box the frame, the inside is going to have a slight inward slant which could affect me later on down the line.

GeorgiaDad, I sincerely apologize for not replying to your post earlier. Somehow I missed the one from 2/7, and didn't see it at all until today's update. I'll try to answer your questions, best I can.

For the cruising rpm, I'd say that your 1800 to 2100 rpm is a good ballpark range. Ideally I like to be at the point on the torque vs rpm curve where the line is breaking over towards horizontal. If below that you're not going to have as much power to make a needed move or to accelerate quickly without changing gears, and with an automatic overdrive tranny you may be in that spot where it's going in & out of OD with very little throttle, which is annoying. My torque curve comes up pretty steep from idle, and at 2000rpm has tailed over and is nearly flat out to about 5500rpm, so I picked my rear gears for 1995rpm at 70mph, which I really like. As for the "gear calculator" site you found, I find it to be cumbersome with all of the info they ask for. I like to work with hard numbers, i.e. the actual diameter of the tire I'm running, or of the tire I've selected as listed by the maker. Places like DiscountTiresDirect or Tire Warehouse list the specs for the various tires they sell. Also, here's a link to a really handy listing of tires by wheel size that I've used a lot - http://tire-size-conversion.com/tiresizes/ Credit Ryan (40FordDeluxe) for that one.

I'd forget about the rear gear ratio at the junk yard and pick the rear end you're going to run based on track and strength, depending on the engine you're going to run. The Ford 9" has become the differential of choice for lots of folks, and you can either get one salvage or there are several places that offer them new, built to the width you want. That can be a big plus for a full fendered car, where tire position side to side is critical. On a hiboy you can live with an extra inch of width, where that may put you into the fenders on your car. Once you get the track decided you can replace the ring & pinion for less than $200 to dial in your rpm's. When you have your custom driveshaft made it's common to use different u-joint's front & rear to match the yokes. Don't get hung up on "all chevy" or "all ford".

I'm pretty sure that the S10 T5 Tranny is only rated for about 250 ft#, which is really pretty weak. You might be OK on the bellhousing to SBC interface - here's a reference that points to Gen I, II, and III engines sharing the same bellhousing pattern with the V-6 engines - Chevrolet Standard Shift Parts Interchange - Novak Conversions

On tire size, you're getting into an area of a lot of personal preference. I can't help with how much tire you can fit into the fenders, but someone else may know and be willing to share their experience. My approach would be to hit as many shows as you can, looking for Model A's that look right to you, and see what they're running. As Jack mentioned earlier, tires for 15" wheels are becoming less common, and sizes that were readily available five years ago are gone today, or only available from specialty suppliers like Coker Tire. Wheel and tire size is one of the most critical decisions that you are going to make to affect the "look" of the car, as they form the stance that makes or breaks the appearance. In my book you really do not want to simply install the Heidt's components and then try to make do with the wheels & tires. You will have some flexibility in the front end placement to affect ride height, but you need to have your wheels & tires figured out first, again in my opinion.

I think that the mismatch in top and bottom flange widths that you mention is not uncommon, and I assume that you're going to box the frame for strength so you can take care of that with the placement of the boxing plates, against the short flange, and butting the wider, right? At least that's what I would probably do without researching. Again, one of the other guys here can give you some guidance based on their experience.

Hope this helps at least a bit, and thanks for posting the update!

rspears, Thanks for the info. You gave me a lot to go over.

Per the rear end. I'm going with a Ford 9" rear end. I did some searching around and found a shop that does nothing but specialize in rear ends just 10 miles from me. I can pick up a Ford 9" from the savage yard. They will rebuild it and can cut it down to any width I want. So now at this point I need to decide on the best donner rear end. Also what rim size/off-set I'm going to use. Possibly a 3.25:1 ratio?

The transmission I have is a 5-speed manual WC B/W T5 #1352-175 from a 1988 5.0 Camaro. I only swapped out the tail housing from the S10 to move the shifter forward. Not the main shaft. I will either go with a GPS speedo or none at all.

I found a GM certified engine builder ~25 miles from me. He will build an engine to my spec's. I can even help build the engine. Since this will be a daily driver, I'm not looking to burn the tires off. :LOL: But I do want the car to be able to get out of it's own way.:rolleyes: He said we can sit down and plan the build out to match my needs.

For the front end, I have decided to go with a TCI IFS. The decision I need to make is chrome or no chrome. Being a daily, I'm wondering if polishing all of that chrome underneath is worth the hassle. But with wire spoke wheels, what is the non-chrome going to look like?

As per the frame. Ole Henry was quite the penny pincher. I was going over the frame when I noticed something. From the tip of the horns to about 3" past where the body bolts down is completely square. Top and bottom of the "c" channel is the same. But just past that point on both sides of the rail. The bottom rail angles in 3/16" making the bottom rail just a tad smaller than the top. Guess Mr. Ford was trying to save some steel cost. :p Not a big problem. I can square it up when I box out the frame.

I'm just a couple of days away from having the frame sandblasted. I was going to spray the frame down with weldable primer when it came back. But I'm not so sure now. I've been reading a lot about Southern Polyurethanes, SPI.. I'm going to contact them and see what they recommend. Has anyone else used Southern Polyurethanes products? What did you think of them?

Time for an update.

I got the frame back from the blasters. It came out really nice.Nice clean steel is so nice to work with.
http://s5.postimg.org/flpuo5b5f/blasted.jpg
For the boxing plates. I bought mine from Wolfs Metal Fabrication. The ones I bought have holes predrilled. 1928 - 1931 Model A "Drilled" Boxing Plates - Wolfes Metal Fab In hindsight, I should have used the solid plates and just drilled out where the body bolts go.
http://s5.postimg.org/ieegufm43/clamps.jpg

My TCI IFS arrived.:D I went non chrome. Going to have it powder coated to mach the frame.
http://s5.postimg.org/4tsa91voz/TCI_IFS1.jpg

Wanting to flatten out the back axle hump some. I went on a search for a new rear brace. Just about everyone I found said "for use with our frame". All of which have been narrowed. Not wanting to narrow my frame, I decided to make my own using 3"x2" tube steel. After taking careful measurements it was time to cut the steel. I needed to make 22.5* cuts. My portaband will cut deep but not wide. That left using the sawzall. First thing I did was set up a mockup of what I was trying to do.
http://s5.postimg.org/mq7nx6ier/Jig1.jpg
From there I made a jig using some steel I had laying around.
http://s5.postimg.org/4fqy9gblf/Jig4.jpg http://s5.postimg.org/m38r7nlir/Jig3.jpg
From there I used a 9" blade in the sawzall and took my time cutting.
http://s5.postimg.org/gqjwtixmb/Jig2.jpg

After cutting I then tacked welded each section together. Making sure each one was square and at the proper angle. The bottom is a nice straight edge. From left to right it's off by .3*, I can live with that.
http://s5.postimg.org/ikwrb9kmr/Rear_support2.jpg http://s5.postimg.org/opo9olcqb/Rear_support1.jpg
It's going to my friends shop to be tig welded then off to the sandblaster before being installed on the frame.

I picked up a Ford 8" rear end from a '70's Maverick. The fit is perfect. It's at the blasters now. I'm going to replace the axle's with Mosers just to be safe. The differential is at Vanishing Point Race Cars. They are replacing the ring and pinion for me. Going from a 2.79 to a 3.25 gear ratio.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by GeorgiaDad

Going from a 2.79 to a 3.25 gear ratio.

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Very strongly recommend using a 3.80 gearset.
http://www.currieenterprises.com/ces...e.aspx?id=1173

Ideal final drive first gear ratio should be between 10.0:1 and 11.0:1. With a 3.80 rear gear and a 2.73 first gear, the first gear final drive ratio would be 10.49:1.

Combining a 3.80 rear gear with a 0.73 5th gear will result in a 5th gear final drive ratio of 2.77:1, which is about as low (numerically) as I would want to go with a low-torque motor. Use a ~28" rear tire (the bigger the rear tire, the better the car will look, up to about 28/29 inches. Using tires taller than that may make the car look dorky.)

With a 2.77:1 final drive 5th gear ratio, 28" tire and a cruising speed of 65 mph, the crank speed would be 2,164 rpm's.

Build the motor between 8.0:1 and 9.5:1, with an ideal SCR of ~8.75:1. Use a cam with intake duration of no more than 200 to 204 degrees @0.050" tappet lift. Many fellows forget that you must match the cruise rpm's with the cam timing to get the cam into the lower end of its operating range at cruise. Such a cam as I'm recommending here would cruise at ~1800 to 2200 rpm's, allowing you to accelerate smoothly from 55 mph in 5th gear (1,831 rpm's). It would create a DCR (Dynamic Compression Ratio) of right at 8.0:1, which, when combined with a tight squish of 0.035" to 0.045", would allow the use of lower grade pump gas without detonation.
http://www.crankshaftcoalition.com/w..._compatibility

A 350 built with 64cc heads and 22cc pistons would have ~8.7:1 SCR, just about ideal for this combination.
https://www.uempistons.com/index.php...9cd4d2555812d4

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Just FYI if you're not familiar with those "banger" motors, you can get good $ for them if they run good.
Motor trans & radiator can bring you $600 to put towards your project.

DO NOT TOSS IT!

That being said, good luck with you're build, I'll be following along.

Wow, I haven't posted an update in a while. Things are moving a bit slow lately. Been too darn cold in the garage a lot of nights. So here's where I stand.

I have the engine mostly rebuilt. I'm holding off on the carb, fuel pump and headers until I get the engine set in place permanently. I'm going back and forth on a couple of items. I'm leaning towards going with an electric fuel pump vs. mechanical. Also leaning towards a carb vs. EFI. Not sure I want to go through the headache of setting up an EFI for a daily driver. I've also decided to remove the mechanical fan and go with an electric radiator mounted fan. From my calculations it should let me move the engine 1 1/2" forward. I need all the room I can get. Going with a Walker radiator.
http://s5.postimg.org/8jd379s4z/engine5.jpg

I have the rear suspension fabbed up. Took a lot more work than I was expecting. The rear has been powder coated and is at the shop being rebuilt at the moment.
http://s5.postimg.org/c48yqhwoj/rearend1.jpg

Put the front clip together with some temp tires. I'm happy with the way it turned out. Had to modify the front fender brackets but it wasn't too hard.
http://s5.postimg.org/dbmwipmsz/frontend2.jpg

So at this point I've got the front modded up to check for fittness. I'm waiting on the new radiator to arrive before I start finalizing everything. so far I'm happy with how thing are going. I just wish it would warm up.

http://s5.postimg.org/muwlc6ab7/mockup1.jpg http://s5.postimg.org/h5gcrv44z/mockup4.jpg
http://s5.postimg.org/ul3dhbcmr/mockup5.jpg