I race in circle track racing. I want to knwo which motor is lighter a 351C or 351W? Please and Thank you
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I race in circle track racing. I want to knwo which motor is lighter a 351C or 351W? Please and Thank you
Windsor is the lighter, mainly because of the heads, blocks are actually close in weight.
Thanks for the information
Cleveland makes more power tho
the cleveland in the long run would make the better motor
yep fords coppy of a bbc :3dSMILE:the bbc is still better engine:DQuote:
Originally Posted by tigers83
The better engine for what? What kind of car, what rpm range do you want to run in? what is the weight? and a gazillion other questions.....
Clevelands need a good oil pan for circle track racing
Tried to find parts for anything but a 'W' engine lately? Inexpensively/reasonably priced?
the w engine seams to be the one to build ? every one i know that runs the 351 use the w engine the 351 c heads are abit big less your going hi rpm engine???
Then of course with the right combination of parts a 351W can grow to 427 and in a few cases even bigger.
Cleveland parts are expensive, you can get the same power out of a Windsor for equal money (but more parts). Then there's the Clevor. C heads on a W. Probably just as pricey, though.
The C is a peaky engine, where the W pulls strong all the way, just not as much top end. Had 'em both, much prefer the Windsor, but I'm talking street engines. Gave up racing years ago, ran a 302 Fairlane stock car.
Tigers83; I've built my share of clevelands and can tell you the there is good and bad for both motors. The cleveland is a great motor for building alot of power.
I don't post alot any more cause I'm tired of fighting with other people that have opions that don't know what thier talking about. I've got a couple of people that I really trust
on here for thier Input. Techinspector, Dave Severson, Mr. Mustang and one or two others. It's like Dave said what do you want to do with it. Clevelands have come down alot in price in the last few years. They have two differant kind of heads for a cleveland,2V and the 4V. Depending on what you want to do, will determine what head you use.
If you want a broad power motor, use the 2V head. This will give you a great street strip motor you'll have alot of fun with, and enough power to spank just {about} everything out there. If you want a all out race moter, just for the strip, use the 4V heads.
These heads are awsome for top end power above 4000 RPM's they build all kinds of HP and torque. Both kinds of heads need a good intake, carb and some headers.
I've never seen a street Windsor 351 leave a street Cleveland 351.
Your gonna have to build the crap out of a 351W to beat a stock 351 Cleveland. Kurt
One of the best things about the cleveland motor is the smaller main size--
And I definitely agree about the 2v / 4v head statement
And you need a good oil pan on any engine that is run in any extreme conditions
yes the 351 W mains are the same size as a 460 but why is it evey one works with the W head it allway seamed to me the 2v head was better then a w head but the bigger C head seam to kill the low end big time?Quote:
Originally Posted by jerry clayton
The 4V Cleveland heads make very poor bottom end power, but with a light reciprocating assembly they will make scads of top end power, from 5,000 to 8,000 rpm on the dyno, never seen any Windsor head come close to them on power!!!!
Dart recently came out with a block that will take a Windsor crank, has the distributor location of a Cleveland, and is available with a 4.125" bore with either an 8.2", 9.2", or 9.5" deck height, just your standard 460ci small block.... Soon to be available with the dimensions I want in aluminum!!!!! When it's available in aluminum (probably early Spring) I'm going to get one and send my old Cleveland 2V heads off to be ported and flowed at Erik's. Gonna put the whole thing in a 2400 pound car and go chebbie hunting....... Should be the most fun an old Blue Oval fan like me could ever be allowed to have!!!!!!!!
PS, make up your own performance numbers, I pretty much know where it's going to be based on what those tired old cast iron heads did the last time they were off the shelf and on a car with considerably fewer cubes.....
Another good combination for you SBF guys to consider is the Boss 302 block that Ford SVT released a year or so back, with a set of either the 4V Cleveland heads, or the Aussie Clevland head.... Put in a light crank, aluminum rods, light pistons, roller cam and rockers---- Then go hunt down the mouse motor chebbie guys and show them what a high rpm engine REALLY pulls like........ That poor sbc has never seen a head that will flow like that Cleveland 4V that's been tweaked!!!!!!
PS-- Before you sbc guys unload on me with a bunch of "virtual engines" with "virtual performance", I am ready, willing, and able to put one of these together and back it up with a sizeable wager......
hey i do not care at all:D i want to do is bore /hone holes mill block rebuild heads build engines and pay bills i do not care what make it is :D all i care is it better after it leaves my shop:DQuote:
Originally Posted by Dave Severson
Quote:
Originally Posted by pat mccarthy
I know Pat.....it wasn't directed at you or the other "real" engine guys..... Anyway, maybe I should just do up one of these engines and put it in my 'Maro?????:LOL::LOL::LOL:
that fine with me:DQuote:
Originally Posted by Dave Severson
Quote:
Originally Posted by pat mccarthy
I'd like to, but then I'd have to find someone as sick and twisted as me to buy it when it's done!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:whacked::whacked::LOL::LOL::LOL:
Thanks for all of your opiniosn and your information. I think that I am going to get rid of my 351W and get a SBC.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tigers83
Yup, a 350/350, just like everybody else....(yawn).... I would imagine it's better to run what's in vogue for most rather then something that with the right kind of parts and machining could actually be a better set up....
I had Friends that owned Mach 1's with 351w and 351c engines all of them where stock or near stock and 4V engines . The 351w's where not very fast . Know the 351c 4V Mach 1's Raged . You hear how the 4V Cleveland heads with them Big Ports killed the Low end Power ? You would never now it watching them cars run . Even that 1972 Mustang 351 HO was and still is a Bad Boy right out the Box .
Quote:
Originally Posted by tango
I still have one of the Boss 351 Clevelands, 4 bolt block, steel crank, 4v heads....... Now if I could ever find "the right" car to put it in.... Thanks to Pat giving me a heads up on an eBay deal, even have the dry sump pan and most of the other goodies!!!!!!!! Need a '71 Mustang or Torino......!!!!!!!
That 351c 4V is an un-real engine . Very Powerful I would Like to see more of them being built . Not sure how rare they are these days ?
No a 400 bored 40 over and a turbo 350 trannyQuote:
Originally Posted by Dave Severson
Quote:
Originally Posted by tango
Well, they're rare, especially the 4 bolt block.... Expensive to build is about the only drawback, think that's what scares a lot of people away from them.... Even box stock they were a strong engine, but with some CNC and flow bench time on the heads, a light (or stock lightened) reciprocating assembly and they do stay together quite well at RPM.... Always wished their popularity would have been higher so the aftermarket companies would have tooled up some aluminum heads for them..... Roush used to do some High Port Cleveland heads that really helped with the flow on the exhaust side.... The way the centrifugal blowers react so well to good exhaust flow, betcha they would respond quite well to a blower (either roots or centrifugal) with about a dozen or so pounds of boost...... Don't remember the flow numbers on them, got it on a head sheet someplace in the piles and piles of paperwork and propaganda.....
PS--We ran the high port exhaust heads back in the late 70's on a road race car I crewed on for a couple seasons--for whatever reason they moved the power band down about a thousand revs. .... great power and no failures mechanically..... sure would like to find another set of them sometime!!!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by jerry clayton
Waiting on dyno to test 351C/408cid stroker.... just built.. will see what she produces.. let you boys know..
Regards Daryl
Pic of the beast:
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y14...LAM4SMOKEN.jpg
Hey Dave; I'm not sure if you knowthis but Brodix made a aluminum head for the cleveland.
Talked too one of thier rep's a few years ago who said they had built a bunch of them for nascar racing. I didn't know nascar raced the clevelands.
Ford Heads: Roush 200cc or less, World Products 200cc or less, RHS ProAction 200cc or less, SVO 200cc or less, Boss Cleveland or four barrel Cleveland pre 1973 allowed. These will be the only heads larger than 210cc. Brodix SPFO allowed. Only head allowed to have larger than 230cc in any class is Ford Boss Cleveland. Any heads deemed of lesser performance value than those listed above will be given .20 handicap. Standard runner height heads only other than heads actually listed above. All heads must be 20 degree except for Boss Cleveland.
Kurt
Quote:
Originally Posted by vara4
Thanks for the info, Kurt. Gonna have to do some digging for some heads one of these days. Had my 4V heads ported and flowed many years ago when we used them on a Clevor engine... Take some real healthy heads to outflow them!!!!! Aluminum with equal or better numbers would be kewl just for the weight savings....and of course Ford does sell the Boss 302 block again....
Hello Cleveland fans/ Kurt & Dave & Steve & others...:D....just back from dyno .. with this 408cid 10.3:1 comp....P/C 230 cc runner alum heads..Isky 290 Mega cam , flat tappetQuote:
Originally Posted by Daryl
P/C intake/ Ed's Victor copy:eek:...box stock Holley 3310 carb.. / couple tricks nothing fancy... P/C dist. ..produced 465 HP @ 5800 RPM 455 ft lbs torque @ 5300 RPM.....:D......with bone stock oil pan & $127.00 Dyno-Smack headers..had to beat on them to clear dyno bellhouse...:CRY:...
Here's a vid of the test..5th pull.. brought her to 6200 RPM..
We figure with good oil pan with windage tray ect & good set of pipes and some ring break in time...will see darn near 500HP
LINK: http://s4.photobucket.com/albums/y14...=ricksdyno.flv
Regards Daryl
Nice strong stroker, Daryl!!!!! What are you going to put the engine in???? Real good numbers considering the heads, flat tappet cam, and cheapo headers!!!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by Daryl
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Severson
Hello Dave...thanks :D.......boys @ dyno...snickered & rolled..:rolleyes: there eyes..when i rolled in with this Cleveland.. there CHEBBY & Mopar boys......
..why bother ect..oh well lets see what shes got..hoo hummm...ect
I kept a tight lip..& let the Cleveland do all the taking...and boy did she talk #'s..the snicker'n turned into chin rub'n & head sratch'n..dam those are serious #'s what the hecks in this thing..they said...?
Oh....just some stroke'n & some o'll Cleveland oil'n tricks & a flat tappet cam
hyd......and Pro-Comp heads..CNC ported..Dave by the way..i'm impressed with these P/C heads for the money spent.1/2 of more less then other CNC ported Cleveland heads out there:D... ...
This engine's going in a Cobra kit car.........will see how she proforms in that with a Tremec TKO 600 trans & Mcleod clutch..3.55 rear gears / Also going to Canton road race oil pan & 2" custom SS headers..then will do a roll'n road dyno test on her...see what we've got were the rear skins touch the road
i'l post some video when shes done.... Regards Daryl
Sounds like a good plan to me!!!! Anxious to see how things turn out!