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Thread: 390 Turned 445 Stroked Mudder Project
          
   
   

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  1. #1
    MTDave is offline CHR Member Visit my Photo Gallery
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    390 Turned 445 Stroked Mudder Project

     



    Hey guys! This is an amazingly great forum! This is my first post, but I've checked out a good deal of the threads for a while now. Hopefully, this wonít come out too badly.


    I suppose it would be a good idea to tell you about the situation. Iím a Ford guy. Iíve only ever owned fords, and rarely driven anything else. Iíve had 2 Ė í77 F-250s, 1 2wd, the other a Factory Highboy 4x4 Ė a í84, and í90 Bronco II (lifted 7Ē on 33ís), as well as a 2001 Ford Escort ZX2, And my recent purchase of a 2008 Ford F-150 FX4 super cab. Blue Oval! Next step is a Ford Racing TattooÖ But enough of that. Iím surrounded by the Bowtie boys, and the dodge guys. I need a hand gathering info, and recommended parts for a (budget) blue oval powered decimator. Just want to shut them up.

    Application: The í77 f-250 Highboy, my Mud Toy. Factory lift(4Ē?), 3Ē body lift, divorced transfer case, np435 top loader, Though I believe it may have come with a 360? The original owner... Put it this way, He knew the truck worked, and didnít care about anything else. D60 rear, High pinion 44 front. Standard cab long bed. I am currently running 35x15x16.5ís, though I would LOVE to switch to maybe a 13/13.5 wide, and change rim sizes so I have better beads until bead-locks are acquired.

    Future Plans: Dedicated Mudder Ė Rockwellís, 44ís, and new 10Ē total of lift. For now though, street able for in-town jaunts for future work on the truck. Or I may just keep it as is, though with a Hp D60 steering front.

    Target/Desired Outcome: At least 400 HP/TQ, naturally aspirated, and exceedingly reliable. Any more than that is welcome! But Iím searching for the minimum 400 of both, if possible.

    Constraints: Not looking to buy a new block (have 2 to work with), And I Donít want to spend more than $5000 after a stroker kit (which I will explain). If need be, so be it though.

    My experience (if it helps): Iíve done a few engine swaps for/with friends, changed the heads on a 390, done a few trans/t-case swaps, few bolt on mods here and there, But thatís about it.

    References: If it helps, Iíve been closely following Jef Perkinís build, and a build Carcraft has done.

    Jeffís: http://www.clubhotrod.com/forums/showthread.php?t=41324
    Carcraft: http://www.carcraft.com/techarticles..._fe/index.html

    What I have: (I am checking, and writing down the block numbers tonight when I get home)
    390 block 2v 4bbl from a 68 Galaxy
    75,000 original miles
    10,000 miles off a poor rebuild (looks and runs as if original 100,000 miles)
    Everything else is stock minus a cheapo-msd rip-off distributor/coil
    Everything else is pretty much going to go.


    The Plan:
    I wanted to go with the Prison break 445 Stroker kit from Survival motorsports, which requires going .030 over. I Wanted to make the basis of my build. After that is where things get a bit fuzzy for me.

    From my research, I would like to go with: (from top town)

    Carb: Holley/Edbrk. 750 double pump, or truck avenger (due to odd angles when wheeling)
    Intake: Edelbrock Performer RPM
    Rockers: Depends on the cam type, right? If so, No Clue.
    Rocker-shaft end stands: Should i be grabbing those for support?
    Heads: Edelbrock, assembled, changing springs to match cam specs
    Lifters: Probably go with the Survival lifters, depending on the cam
    Pushrods: Not a clue
    Camshaft: Need help with this. Would love a nice low lope, aggressive and mean. Need a cam thatís got potential for HP and TQ, in an operating range that would suit what the motor will run with that stroker kit, which I also donít know.
    Ignition: need some input here.
    Most of the lower end stuff comes with the kit.
    Oilpan: I want to go to at least a 7qt rear, or possibly dual sump? Itís for mudding, and will see odd angles, which direction should I head? Not to mention the windage tray.
    Oil pump: Probably a pump to match the pan?

    Headers I have, though the make/type is unknown. They are rusting through in a spot or two, and will soon need to be replaced as well. Probably go with the super stock header plug wires so they wont melt. Full Fel-pro gaskets are in order.

    Machining:
    I will more than likely have everything ported/polished to match.
    What should I look for as far as deck height, piston deck, and squish go? Or will I need the parts to figure out the stack first? Sorry, this is way above me at my level.

    What kind of machining, porting/polishing do I need? As well as oiling modifications to my otherwise stock block?

    Accessories:
    As it stands, the motor/wiring harness are set up for Alternator (which I may as well replace), and power steering (which the whole system will be replaced).

    Also, in relation to the ignition system Ė I was thinking of going with a new wiring harness from Painless Performance. This would increase the energy going to the coil/distributor increasing spark, therefore horse power, correct? Seems like a very good investment. Though my wallet won't feel too good




    Is there anything I overlooked?

    Thank you for taking the time to read this, and I value any and all input. Questions will be answered as fully as possible, and as quickly as I can, so please donít hesitate to ask! And please correct me if I am wrong!

    Dave

  2. #2
    techinspector1's Avatar
    techinspector1 is offline CHR Member Visit my Photo Gallery
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    Hi Dave and welcome aboard.

    If you're looking for only 400/400, you can do that with a 390. It certainly won't require a 445. Have you considered that?

  3. #3
    MTDave is offline CHR Member Visit my Photo Gallery
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    Hello Tech! And thank you kindly!

    Well, A minimum of 400/400, As i don't mind it going past that

    Yeah, I have considered that i won't neccesarily need the 445 stroker, However... The bowtie boys are going blown, or turning on the turbo. And it would be nice to have something Naturally Aspirated to keep up with their bolt on toys... Chevy and dodge guys, Go Figure?

    Plus, if i understand the math on a supercharger and how the power works through the PSI pushed, With this build, even without the stroker, Eitehr the components, or the block, wouldnt hold a charger, or turbo for long.

    I suppose i've just lost my idea.. Oh, If i wanted to join them in blower/turboville, i would just build a 460, with a turbo/charger and kill them.

    However, I love my FE. Plus it would be nice to have the bragging rights, that a natural FE beat a blown bowtie

    So... I know you are just offering your two cents, and i thank you. However, i'm leaning heavily towards it at the moment. I just don't see the point in not really building it, if im going to build it at all, you know?

    Sorry for the rambling post, i'm going to go eat dinner.

  4. #4
    hotrodstude is offline CHR Member Visit my Photo Gallery
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    if i'm not mistaken the last year for the fe's were 1976,in 1977 ford went to the 351/400 m for there mid range engines.with the 460 being top dog.all which use the same bellhousing and the 351m is not a cleveland but some of the parts are interchangeable.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by MTDave View Post
    The bowtie boys are going blown, or turning on the turbo. And it would be nice to have something Naturally Aspirated to keep up with their bolt on toys..

    However, I love my FE. Plus it would be nice to have the bragging rights, that a natural FE beat a blown bowtie
    Dave, you need to re-think this whole idea in my opinion. I don't see a naturally aspirated ANYTHING driving around a blower motor. No matter what you show up with, those guys are gonna be puttin' 50% more power to the mud than you are.

  6. #6
    MTDave is offline CHR Member Visit my Photo Gallery
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    Sorry, I seem to have been experiencing technical difficulties in posting a reply. Tried last night, and earlier today and it didnt seem to work.

    Again, tahnk you kindly for the response tech.

    Well, yes and no. While i do agree, I should probably explain their side. They are going to junkyards, getting detuned junker 350's for dirt cheap. Im talking 275hp junkers. All they are doing, is bolting on a charger till it blows, and moving on to the next junker block. When i say that, i mean NOTHING else is beefed up to handle it. While i already have the c-6, np205, np208 doubler, d-60 rear, and d44 front built to handle up to 700hp/650tq (original owner's son was going to build a 545 stroker, took the motor).

    So, when i say i would like an engine that could keep up with their bolt ons, My target being 400+, i won't be too terribly off from their power output. Being as they wont/cant run even double power, MAYBE 10psi bringing them to about 470? at BEST?

    From my perspective, if i build it right, it would come down to driver skills, and frankly they have none :P Great friends, but not great drivers.


    Then again, i came asking for advice, i should take it.

    What would you say for my build in a non-stroker fashion then Tech?

    Though, if you would indulge me, what would you do for the 445 stroker? i have a second motor i would love to build as well
    Last edited by MTDave; 08-06-2009 at 05:06 PM. Reason: Couldnt post original reply.

  7. #7
    techinspector1's Avatar
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    OK, now I understand your position. I guess it's going to come down to a choice of heads. Understand that I'm not particularly an FE guy, but after all, any motor out there is just an air pump and all of them will respond to pretty much the same treatment, air in , air out.

    Dave Severson, FFR428 and some of the other FE guys need to jump in here and help if they will. I know the Edelbrock heads make pretty good power, but don't know about some of the other choices like Blue Thunder by A.T. Francis. There may be other heads I have never heard of.

    Bottom line, I'll help dial in the static and dynamic compression ratio and run several cam choices through the DynoSim to try to get the motor dialed in once you select the components. As you said, you've followed the Jeff Perkins and Car Craft builds, so you know what kind of power can be generated with the Edelbrock stuff. I'd like to see if some of these other FE guys on the board could come up with alternate choices of parts.

    What kind of fuel will be available?

    Survival Motorsports is a dealer for Blue Thunder. I was looking on there and there are 3 choices for a small bore FE motor, Medium Riser small bore Quench, High Riser small bore Quench and Medium Riser OE Wedge. You might get in touch with them and find out what would be the best head for your application and what the flow figures are.
    http://store.survivalmotorsports.com...0-427-428.html

    Also ask about intake manifolds to match up to the heads......what to use????.....
    http://store.survivalmotorsports.com...0-427-428.html
    Last edited by techinspector1; 08-06-2009 at 06:42 PM.

  8. #8
    MTDave is offline CHR Member Visit my Photo Gallery
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    Well, It would be nice to pull up anywhere, grab some premium, and go. Though i wouldnt mind race gas only...

    Scratch that, Pump gas would be highley desireable. I'm going to repaint this beast from time to time, and it would be nice to cruise around, showing it off, without worrying about having a spare can of race gas.


    As far as blue thunder goes, wouldnt that be spending about 1/4-1/2 of the budget right there? From what i've seen, they are quite spendy. I understand you have to spend money, to gain power, but wow. I guess i wouldn't be against that avenue though if everything else lined up within budget.

    Sorry for the short reply, I'm at work and the boss is in a cranky mood.

    Thanks again tech!

  9. #9
    Dave Severson is offline CHR Member/Contributor Visit my Photo Gallery
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    FE's are good, but doubt they'll keep up with blown or nitrous assisted big blocks!!!!! The Edelbrock heads are quite good for what they cost...but can't hold a candle to the Blue Thunder's on performance....Guess it comes down to how much power you can afford....... Not into the mudder and puller stuff at all, but it's going to need all the parts and components that will build the torque!!!!! Big horsepower and rpm would probably just spin the tires. As with any form of motor sports, it's going to take a well thought out and planned build of the entire truck, not just the engine... Just like drag racing or circle burners, if you can't hook up, doesn't matter how much power you have the combination is wrong and it just ain't gonna work!!!!! A properly set up chassis with the right gearing and tires with a modest engine will invariably win more races then the big horse, stock chassis stuff!!!!!!
    Yesterday is history, tomorrow is a mystery, Live for Today!
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  10. #10
    MTDave is offline CHR Member Visit my Photo Gallery
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    I hear ya dave!

    I'm glad though. The previous owner's son started to work on it for his dad. The c-6, np205, np208 doubler, d60 rear, d44 front, and even the drivelines/u-joints will hold up to 700hp/650tq. As far as gearing goes i'm locked 4.88 rear, spooled 4.88 front. With the 390 in it now, i CANNOT bust traction loose, its even hard in the rain. Now if im in low, yes, and if im in super low, i won't move fast enough to spin em all that much

    First thing i did was add ladder bars to the rear axle, i'm working on the same sort of effect on the front.

    Forgot to mention... As scary as it is, the 3 buddies i keep mentioning, all have base 1989, 91, and 86 chevy 1500's. Stock everything, the 91 was heavy duty 1/2 ton, but the others were standard. They might just spin, or even wrap the axles. But hey, they might hook up and make me work for it


    Something tells me i can take em

    The blue thunders.. Like i said, they are amazing. But i don't want to eat up 1/4 to 1/2 the budget on just the heads unless everything else is covered and the budget allows it. Correct me if im wrong, but arent the edelbrocks good to about 550-600? I doubt i will get that high, even with the stroker.

    Much appreciated!
    Dave

  11. #11
    Dave Severson is offline CHR Member/Contributor Visit my Photo Gallery
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    Think I'd probably talk the heads over with Barry at Survival Motorsports, he's used the Edelbrocks' on some very healthy setups!!!! He stops in here from time to time, too. I'm sure he would have some very workable solutions for you that will be within budget. He's very sharp on the FE's and will be able to tell you what cam and what valve train pieces you'll need to make it all work good!
    Yesterday is history, tomorrow is a mystery, Live for Today!
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  12. #12
    MTDave is offline CHR Member Visit my Photo Gallery
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    Sounds good to me. I just figured.. i don't know.

    He's a pretty busy guy, and i know its part of his job, but i still don't like to bother people like that. Took me a while to even post on here, to tell ya the truth. Every time i go to his website, i just drool...

    But thank you, i will probably give him a call in the next few days when i get a chance!

  13. #13
    MTDave is offline CHR Member Visit my Photo Gallery
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    I was unable to get a hold of anyone at survival today. No biggie. I'll get a hold of barry, if possible, to make double sure that everything matches up, and will work well.

    Well, In the mean time, I've talked to a few of the ford guys that i work with, and I suppose the choice has been made.


    I would like to run with the 445 stroker kit from survival. Mostly so i don't have to even think about the condition of the stock internals, much less worry about having to go through it all again. I would rather spend the money all at once, than a little bit, many times.

    So The plan now, is:

    Take the 390 .030 over, with a stroke of 4.250 thanks to the stroker kit.
    Sticking with the dish top pistons for streetability. Probe or Diamond? Also going to H-beam rods.

    Carb: Could use a suggestion on the size, but probably going with a Holley Truck avenger.
    Intake: Edelbrock Performer RPM dual plane
    Rockers: Survival rockers
    Grabbing Rocker-shaft end stands from survival
    Heads: Survival prepped Edelbrock heads, Springs matched to cam. The blue thunders are out of my budget at the present time, but may go in sooner or later
    Lifters: Survival Solid Lifters
    Pushrods: The trend custom pushrods on the Survival site
    Camshaft: I still Need help with this. Would love a nice low lope, aggressive and mean(don't mind if its too rough of an idle). Need a cam that’s got potential for HP and TQ, in an operating range that would suit what the motor will run with that stroker kit, which will mostly be a mud race application.
    Ignition: Full MSD ignition system, though i don't know which is the correct distributor for my application.
    Like i've said before, Most of the lower end stuff comes with the kit.
    Oilpan: Milodon 8qt #30550, Windage tray to match
    Oil pump: Melling high volume oil pump M57HV

    Is there anything else that i missed, or that you need for your calculations Tech? I don't know which carb to go with, Nor the slightest idea on the cam. But please let me know, and I'll get back to you ASAP.

    Thanks again!
    Dave
    Last edited by MTDave; 08-07-2009 at 05:04 PM. Reason: adding forgotten links

  14. #14
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    What's the realistic rev limit for that reciprocating assembly? You don't want to choose a cam until you know that. What kind of fuel do you have available?

  15. #15
    Barry_R is offline CHR Member Visit my Photo Gallery
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    Trying not to cross into an "advertising mode" here....

    The 4.25 kits have been run at around 7000 RPM so far. Normal peak power is around 6200 though - no reason to "buzz it" harder...

    Most 390 based combos peak around 500 HP and torque - depending on cam & stuff - not beyond 550 for sure.

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