390 Turned 445 Stroked Mudder Project

Hey guys! This is an amazingly great forum! This is my first post, but I've checked out a good deal of the threads for a while now. Hopefully, this won’t come out too badly.


I suppose it would be a good idea to tell you about the situation. I’m a Ford guy. I’ve only ever owned fords, and rarely driven anything else. I’ve had 2 – ’77 F-250s, 1 2wd, the other a Factory Highboy 4x4 – a ’84, and ’90 Bronco II (lifted 7” on 33’s), as well as a 2001 Ford Escort ZX2, And my recent purchase of a 2008 Ford F-150 FX4 super cab. Blue Oval! Next step is a Ford Racing Tattoo… But enough of that. I’m surrounded by the Bowtie boys, and the dodge guys. I need a hand gathering info, and recommended parts for a (budget) blue oval powered decimator. Just want to shut them up.

Application: The ’77 f-250 Highboy, my Mud Toy. Factory lift(4”?), 3” body lift, divorced transfer case, np435 top loader, Though I believe it may have come with a 360? The original owner... Put it this way, He knew the truck worked, and didn’t care about anything else. D60 rear, High pinion 44 front. Standard cab long bed. I am currently running 35x15x16.5’s, though I would LOVE to switch to maybe a 13/13.5 wide, and change rim sizes so I have better beads until bead-locks are acquired.

Future Plans: Dedicated Mudder – Rockwell’s, 44’s, and new 10” total of lift. For now though, street able for in-town jaunts for future work on the truck. Or I may just keep it as is, though with a Hp D60 steering front.

Target/Desired Outcome: At least 400 HP/TQ, naturally aspirated, and exceedingly reliable. Any more than that is welcome! But I’m searching for the minimum 400 of both, if possible.

Constraints: Not looking to buy a new block (have 2 to work with), And I Don’t want to spend more than $5000 after a stroker kit (which I will explain). If need be, so be it though.

My experience (if it helps): I’ve done a few engine swaps for/with friends, changed the heads on a 390, done a few trans/t-case swaps, few bolt on mods here and there, But that’s about it.

References: If it helps, I’ve been closely following Jef Perkin’s build, and a build Carcraft has done.

Jeff’s: http://www.clubhotrod.com/forums/showthread.php?t=41324
Carcraft: http://www.carcraft.com/techarticles..._fe/index.html

What I have: (I am checking, and writing down the block numbers tonight when I get home)
390 block 2v 4bbl from a 68 Galaxy
75,000 original miles
10,000 miles off a poor rebuild (looks and runs as if original 100,000 miles)
Everything else is stock minus a cheapo-msd rip-off distributor/coil
Everything else is pretty much going to go.


The Plan:
I wanted to go with the Prison break 445 Stroker kit from Survival motorsports, which requires going .030 over. I Wanted to make the basis of my build. After that is where things get a bit fuzzy for me.

From my research, I would like to go with: (from top town)

Carb: Holley/Edbrk. 750 double pump, or truck avenger (due to odd angles when wheeling)
Intake: Edelbrock Performer RPM
Rockers: Depends on the cam type, right? If so, No Clue.
Rocker-shaft end stands: Should i be grabbing those for support?
Heads: Edelbrock, assembled, changing springs to match cam specs
Lifters: Probably go with the Survival lifters, depending on the cam
Pushrods: Not a clue
Camshaft: Need help with this. Would love a nice low lope, aggressive and mean. Need a cam that’s got potential for HP and TQ, in an operating range that would suit what the motor will run with that stroker kit, which I also don’t know.
Ignition: need some input here.
Most of the lower end stuff comes with the kit.
Oilpan: I want to go to at least a 7qt rear, or possibly dual sump? It’s for mudding, and will see odd angles, which direction should I head? Not to mention the windage tray.
Oil pump: Probably a pump to match the pan?

Headers I have, though the make/type is unknown. They are rusting through in a spot or two, and will soon need to be replaced as well. Probably go with the super stock header plug wires so they wont melt. Full Fel-pro gaskets are in order.

Machining:
I will more than likely have everything ported/polished to match.
What should I look for as far as deck height, piston deck, and squish go? Or will I need the parts to figure out the stack first? Sorry, this is way above me at my level. :confused::confused:

What kind of machining, porting/polishing do I need? As well as oiling modifications to my otherwise stock block?

Accessories:
As it stands, the motor/wiring harness are set up for Alternator (which I may as well replace), and power steering (which the whole system will be replaced).

Also, in relation to the ignition system – I was thinking of going with a new wiring harness from Painless Performance. This would increase the energy going to the coil/distributor increasing spark, therefore horse power, correct? Seems like a very good investment. Though my wallet won't feel too good:whacked:




Is there anything I overlooked? :HMMM:

Thank you for taking the time to read this, and I value any and all input. Questions will be answered as fully as possible, and as quickly as I can, so please don’t hesitate to ask! And please correct me if I am wrong!

Dave

Hi Dave and welcome aboard.:3dSMILE:

If you're looking for only 400/400, you can do that with a 390. It certainly won't require a 445. Have you considered that?

Hello Tech! And thank you kindly!

Well, A minimum of 400/400, As i don't mind it going past that ;)

Yeah, I have considered that i won't neccesarily need the 445 stroker, However... The bowtie boys are going blown, or turning on the turbo. And it would be nice to have something Naturally Aspirated to keep up with their bolt on toys... Chevy and dodge guys, Go Figure?

Plus, if i understand the math on a supercharger and how the power works through the PSI pushed, With this build, even without the stroker, Eitehr the components, or the block, wouldnt hold a charger, or turbo for long.

I suppose i've just lost my idea.. Oh, If i wanted to join them in blower/turboville, i would just build a 460, with a turbo/charger and kill them.

However, I love my FE. Plus it would be nice to have the bragging rights, that a natural FE beat a blown bowtie ;)

So... I know you are just offering your two cents, and i thank you. However, i'm leaning heavily towards it at the moment. I just don't see the point in not really building it, if im going to build it at all, you know?

Sorry for the rambling post, i'm going to go eat dinner.

if i'm not mistaken the last year for the fe's were 1976,in 1977 ford went to the 351/400 m for there mid range engines.with the 460 being top dog.all which use the same bellhousing and the 351m is not a cleveland but some of the parts are interchangeable.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MTDave

The bowtie boys are going blown, or turning on the turbo. And it would be nice to have something Naturally Aspirated to keep up with their bolt on toys..

However, I love my FE. Plus it would be nice to have the bragging rights, that a natural FE beat a blown bowtie ;)

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Dave, you need to re-think this whole idea in my opinion. I don't see a naturally aspirated ANYTHING driving around a blower motor. No matter what you show up with, those guys are gonna be puttin' 50% more power to the mud than you are.

Sorry, I seem to have been experiencing technical difficulties in posting a reply. Tried last night, and earlier today and it didnt seem to work.

Again, tahnk you kindly for the response tech.

Well, yes and no. While i do agree, I should probably explain their side. They are going to junkyards, getting detuned junker 350's for dirt cheap. Im talking 275hp junkers. All they are doing, is bolting on a charger till it blows, and moving on to the next junker block. When i say that, i mean NOTHING else is beefed up to handle it. While i already have the c-6, np205, np208 doubler, d-60 rear, and d44 front built to handle up to 700hp/650tq (original owner's son was going to build a 545 stroker, took the motor).

So, when i say i would like an engine that could keep up with their bolt ons, My target being 400+, i won't be too terribly off from their power output. Being as they wont/cant run even double power, MAYBE 10psi bringing them to about 470? at BEST?

From my perspective, if i build it right, it would come down to driver skills, and frankly they have none :P Great friends, but not great drivers.


Then again, i came asking for advice, i should take it.

What would you say for my build in a non-stroker fashion then Tech?

Though, if you would indulge me, what would you do for the 445 stroker? i have a second motor i would love to build as well ;)

OK, now I understand your position. I guess it's going to come down to a choice of heads. Understand that I'm not particularly an FE guy, but after all, any motor out there is just an air pump and all of them will respond to pretty much the same treatment, air in , air out.

Dave Severson, FFR428 and some of the other FE guys need to jump in here and help if they will. I know the Edelbrock heads make pretty good power, but don't know about some of the other choices like Blue Thunder by A.T. Francis. There may be other heads I have never heard of.

Bottom line, I'll help dial in the static and dynamic compression ratio and run several cam choices through the DynoSim to try to get the motor dialed in once you select the components. As you said, you've followed the Jeff Perkins and Car Craft builds, so you know what kind of power can be generated with the Edelbrock stuff. I'd like to see if some of these other FE guys on the board could come up with alternate choices of parts.

What kind of fuel will be available?

Survival Motorsports is a dealer for Blue Thunder. I was looking on there and there are 3 choices for a small bore FE motor, Medium Riser small bore Quench, High Riser small bore Quench and Medium Riser OE Wedge. You might get in touch with them and find out what would be the best head for your application and what the flow figures are.
http://store.survivalmotorsports.com...0-427-428.html

Also ask about intake manifolds to match up to the heads......what to use????.....
http://store.survivalmotorsports.com...0-427-428.html

Well, It would be nice to pull up anywhere, grab some premium, and go. Though i wouldnt mind race gas only...

Scratch that, Pump gas would be highley desireable. I'm going to repaint this beast from time to time, and it would be nice to cruise around, showing it off, without worrying about having a spare can of race gas.


As far as blue thunder goes, wouldnt that be spending about 1/4-1/2 of the budget right there? From what i've seen, they are quite spendy. I understand you have to spend money, to gain power, but wow. I guess i wouldn't be against that avenue though if everything else lined up within budget.

Sorry for the short reply, I'm at work and the boss is in a cranky mood.

Thanks again tech!

FE's are good, but doubt they'll keep up with blown or nitrous assisted big blocks!!!!! The Edelbrock heads are quite good for what they cost...but can't hold a candle to the Blue Thunder's on performance....Guess it comes down to how much power you can afford....... Not into the mudder and puller stuff at all, but it's going to need all the parts and components that will build the torque!!!!! Big horsepower and rpm would probably just spin the tires. As with any form of motor sports, it's going to take a well thought out and planned build of the entire truck, not just the engine... Just like drag racing or circle burners, if you can't hook up, doesn't matter how much power you have the combination is wrong and it just ain't gonna work!!!!! A properly set up chassis with the right gearing and tires with a modest engine will invariably win more races then the big horse, stock chassis stuff!!!!!!

I hear ya dave!

I'm glad though. The previous owner's son started to work on it for his dad. The c-6, np205, np208 doubler, d60 rear, d44 front, and even the drivelines/u-joints will hold up to 700hp/650tq. As far as gearing goes i'm locked 4.88 rear, spooled 4.88 front. With the 390 in it now, i CANNOT bust traction loose, its even hard in the rain. Now if im in low, yes, and if im in super low, i won't move fast enough to spin em all that much ;)

First thing i did was add ladder bars to the rear axle, i'm working on the same sort of effect on the front.

Forgot to mention... As scary as it is, the 3 buddies i keep mentioning, all have base 1989, 91, and 86 chevy 1500's. Stock everything, the 91 was heavy duty 1/2 ton, but the others were standard. They might just spin, or even wrap the axles. But hey, they might hook up and make me work for it **)


Something tells me i can take em :rolleyes:

The blue thunders.. Like i said, they are amazing. But i don't want to eat up 1/4 to 1/2 the budget on just the heads unless everything else is covered and the budget allows it. Correct me if im wrong, but arent the edelbrocks good to about 550-600? I doubt i will get that high, even with the stroker.

Much appreciated!
Dave

Think I'd probably talk the heads over with Barry at Survival Motorsports, he's used the Edelbrocks' on some very healthy setups!!!! He stops in here from time to time, too. I'm sure he would have some very workable solutions for you that will be within budget. He's very sharp on the FE's and will be able to tell you what cam and what valve train pieces you'll need to make it all work good!

Sounds good to me. I just figured.. i don't know.

He's a pretty busy guy, and i know its part of his job, but i still don't like to bother people like that. Took me a while to even post on here, to tell ya the truth. Every time i go to his website, i just drool...

But thank you, i will probably give him a call in the next few days when i get a chance!

I was unable to get a hold of anyone at survival today. No biggie. I'll get a hold of barry, if possible, to make double sure that everything matches up, and will work well.

Well, In the mean time, I've talked to a few of the ford guys that i work with, and I suppose the choice has been made.


I would like to run with the 445 stroker kit from survival. Mostly so i don't have to even think about the condition of the stock internals, much less worry about having to go through it all again. I would rather spend the money all at once, than a little bit, many times.

So The plan now, is:

Take the 390 .030 over, with a stroke of 4.250 thanks to the stroker kit.
Sticking with the dish top pistons for streetability. Probe or Diamond? Also going to H-beam rods.

Carb: Could use a suggestion on the size, but probably going with a Holley Truck avenger.
Intake: Edelbrock Performer RPM dual plane
Rockers: Survival rockers
Grabbing Rocker-shaft end stands from survival
Heads: Survival prepped Edelbrock heads, Springs matched to cam. The blue thunders are out of my budget at the present time, but may go in sooner or later :rolleyes:
Lifters: Survival Solid Lifters
Pushrods: The trend custom pushrods on the Survival site
Camshaft: I still Need help with this.:confused: Would love a nice low lope, aggressive and mean(don't mind if its too rough of an idle). Need a cam that’s got potential for HP and TQ, in an operating range that would suit what the motor will run with that stroker kit, which will mostly be a mud race application.
Ignition: Full MSD ignition system, though i don't know which is the correct distributor for my application.
Like i've said before, Most of the lower end stuff comes with the kit.
Oilpan: Milodon 8qt #30550, Windage tray to match
Oil pump: Melling high volume oil pump M57HV

Is there anything else that i missed, or that you need for your calculations Tech? I don't know which carb to go with, Nor the slightest idea on the cam. But please let me know, and I'll get back to you ASAP.

Thanks again!
Dave

What's the realistic rev limit for that reciprocating assembly? You don't want to choose a cam until you know that. What kind of fuel do you have available?

Trying not to cross into an "advertising mode" here....

The 4.25 kits have been run at around 7000 RPM so far. Normal peak power is around 6200 though - no reason to "buzz it" harder...

Most 390 based combos peak around 500 HP and torque - depending on cam & stuff - not beyond 550 for sure.

Awesome! Thanks Barry! I'll probably be getting a hold of you soon :)

Well, i guess teres the answer tech, so no higher than 6500 i suppose? or 6000 if you think that would be better.

As far as available fuel, I would love to run premium. Love love love... But i think JP5 is available. My friend uses a 25 JP5 / 75 premium mix when he races. At least i THINK that's what he uses.

Anyone have Any ideas?

Personally I would just build the 390 to run on pump premium. With gearing you should be able to run around 10.8:1 with flat tops. A decent big solid flat tappet and a bit of head work to the Edelbrocks and you're around 550HP on an honest dyno.

The 390 block will become marginal around the 600 HP mark - so there is no reason to push much higher - it's not really cost rational to add cros bolts to a 390. RPM is not a problem - we've run the stroker stuff past 6700 and up to 7000 with regularity. Its just that most of my 390 builds don't ned to "go there". These are generally pretty torquey and peak around 5700-6200 in street combos.

I can be a challenge to get on the phone sometimes. Kind of a "one man band"...but busy is good. Woodward Dream cruise this weekend...

I wouldn't worry so much about the cam lope though it sounds nice in a hot rod.
They usually don't preform well in the mud where you need that grunt power.
I would quite worrying about rpm's so much and focuse on torque.
You start turning 7,000rmp's and then hook up with those big tires, I don't care what you got under it, your gonna be making some trips to the parts store for some new stuff.
I used to go mudding all the time and help plenty of my friends out with thier stuff.
I would see these guys in giant trucks go out in the mud spinning their tires at big rpms
and get stuck every time. Then this little Isuzu would creep out with some tow straps
and pull these giant trucks out at no more then 3000rpm's. We would all sit there and laugh because these big trucks would be sunk to the tops of their fender with 44's under them. Here is the kicker the Isuzu was running a Toyota R22 4 cylinder motor.
Pulled them trucks out every time, never once seen him get stuck pulling those other guys out in years. Kurt

Thanks Barry! I completely agree with you. Premium all the way. Flat tops sound good as well. And you are completely right, I don't think i should run past 6000-6200, since i SHOULD be aiming for torque. What kind of work do you recommend to the E-brock heads?

That's why I'm asking the experts :P

And don't worry Barry, I know you're busy. I'm not exactly on a time schedule, So I'll get a hold of you sooner or later.


Vara, You are absolutely right. I've re-read a few of my posts, and i make no sense :whacked:. Lately I've been way too stressed getting things together at work, and on personal projects. My bad. You all keep me sane, because i forget issues and start thinking Toys :LOL:

I'll aim for torque, and forget about the lope. Though i think it will be a nice rough idle anyway, at this point.

Thanks so much to both of you!
Dave

Dave, I'll fiddle around with the DynoSim later today for you. 390 +0.030", worked over Edelbrocks, 10.8, solid flat tappet.

Awesome, Thank you very much Tech, Much appreciated!!! :D**)

I feel kind of silly putting together a combo, when Barry could just pull parts off the shelf and make more power or a better combo. He's the FE expert here and could make me look like a dunderhead.

Irregardless of that, I do like putting parts together on the DynoSim, so will do my best to assemble a 396 torque motor.

I built this one at 10.3:1 static compression ratio. It worked out that way with 0.030" overbore, 72cc heads, flat-tops with 5cc reliefs, zero deck and Fel-Pro #1020 0.041" gasket (10.2cc's) recommended by Edelbrock. Only way I could see to get more scr with flat-tops would be to cut the heads and/or go bigger on the overbore. I didn't want to do that, so settled on less scr. Rotating assembly stack 10.155". Block cut for zero deck.

I figured that a professional porter could get another 10% over the Edelbrock published flow figures, so that's what I used for the Sim. Here are the flow figures I used....
0.100 97 70
0.200 168 124
0.300 215 163
0.400 256 188
0.500 292 201
0.600 297 220

If this is unrealistic, I'll cut back to the published figures and re-run the combo.
http://www.edelbrock.com/automotive_.../6000/6007.pdf

Forged pistons, Ross #99601 flat-top, 5cc valve reliefs cut by Ross for Edelbrock heads.

Comp doesn't have a real good selection of solid flat tappet cams for an FE, so I had to make do. Given more time, I could sort through some of the other manufacturers offerings and come up with a better choice....I'd like to see the intake closed a little later to lower dcr for use on pump gas. I extended the close 5 degrees after I had already run the Sim and made 583/555 with a 8.25:1 DCR....
http://www.compcams.com/Cam_Specs/Ca...?csid=946&sb=0

I ran this with a 750 carb, RPM intake and open small tube headers.....

RPM HP TQ
2000 161 422
2500 203 426
3000 262 458
3500 335 503
4000 406 534
4500 474 554
5000 527 554
5500 561 536
6000 576 504
6500 567 458
7000 539 404

Static compression ratio 10.3:1
Dynamic compression ratio 8.55:1 on Keith Black's calculator
Max volumetric efficiency 103.2% @5000
BMEP 211.3 @5000
Squish 0.041" with zero deck

Dyno programs are great directionally, but tend to be off from dyno numbers for any of a million reasons. I like to use the data, and it is really helpful to define the build, rather than determine the result.

The below is based on data from the local SuperFlow 1020 flow bench. Every bench seems a bit different - use the data for direction rather than for absolute comparison. Same situation really - more like a compass than a map. You need both to get anywhere.

Edelbrock's flow data for the unmodified heads is -ahem - "optimistic". The peak number they give is obtainable on our bench but only at a really high lift - well beyond the cam's range. We generally see around middle 250's at .600 lift.

Moderate bowl & detail work and a slightly larger valve will get you into the lower 270s - closer to the advertised numbers @ .600 lift. It takes a pretty nice porting job to hit 300 cfm onn these. We get to the middle 320s with extensive work - but that is cost prohibitive for a build at this level.

Based on my dyno testing - and dynos are like flow benches - the combination listed above will get around 475 horsepower with a 272 cfm head. Assuming a similar flow/horsepower relationship the additional port work could get to around 520ish. The next cam up is the 294S with 248 @ .050 and .605 gross lift - it will get you closer to that 550HP mark. Jay used the even larger 306S cam is his Car Craft article engine to get the "Hollywood" number for the magazine - but that'd cost torque downstairs and idle like a can fulla rocks....