how to find a good used 390/428 block

Hi,

I have a 68 GT convertible 4-speed Mustang originally an S code 390 but now with a 302 with cracked block. It has been parked for 20 years. I am looking for a good used block to rebuild. I understand I need to find a 4V 390/428 block to do this. Is the best bet to call junkyards? What range of years would work and how many ford models had the 4V 390/428? Not a lot of money to work with. I used to do some motor rebuilding about 25 years ago.

Any suggestions on good rebuild manuals?
Thanks,

Rob

Are you after the correct date code and casting numbers block and heads to rebuild, or just a 4V390?? A wrecking yard might be a good place to start your search.

Dave,

I guess the answer would be that any 390 4V of the right vintage etc.., would likely do. Given money constraints, time constraints and the fact I have waited 20 years to do this (my teenage sons want to help) I would say a realistic expectation is to just get a decent 390 4V to rebuild. What follows from that is the other part of my question about what range of years and models of car had 390's/428's that would fit?

Rob

Richard,

Many thanks for your help. It looks like the majority of these would be similar blocks. If i stuck with 359 to 391 would work for maintaining the same bore. What do you think about companies like autoenginerebuilders online who have a 1968 rebuilt Cougar engine for around $1300? What should i expect to pay for a junkyard engine?

Years ago I recall that standard inspection was to look for a rod through the pan, a crowbar to see if you could turn it over and a look at the valves to see if they were still oily.

Robin

I'm with Tech on this one, I would much rather buy a buildable core (last one I got was $35.00 at an auction with a C-6 attached) and have my machinist set tolerances to where I want them, not to where some 9 to 5 guy who doesn't know me from Adam thinks they should be set. Yeah, it might be more expensive to do it this way, but as in all things, ya get what ya pay for. I never will argue with someone who sells his stuff for less, he obviously knows what it's worth.

Thanks to everyone so far,

I guess the general concensus seesm to be that I should look for a good used block either privately or through a junkyard. What do I check on that motor when I go to buy it? I listed some things that I remember used to be done. Obviously I should check the head casting numbers to see what they are but that would be pretty hard with the block in a junkyard.

Robin

Robin, First welcome. You want to become familer with the casting numbers and date codes for the FE/FT series. This way you will know what your looking at when the time comes. Most blocks, heads, cranks, rods etc.... will have a casting number. This is the number Ford used to ID the components used in their engines. Check out this site www.dscmotorsport.com You can get a good idea how much things are if you need to buy them seperately. I see good 390's for $200 all the time complete but needing a rebuild. I'd also recommend looking for a replacement S code while your at it but if you find a good used core get it. DSC is a good source for parts and blocks and such. Dennis has very good prices. Not cheap but fairly priced and sells quality parts. He also sells heads intakes etc...ready to go as well as everyting else you need. He has all the odd stuff others do not. The only 68 mustangs that came with the 428 were the 68 1/2 CJ mustangs. But a 428 would be what I'd recommend if the budget allows. It's more than the stocker 390 but will have a higher resale value than a junkyard 390 not to mention the kick. The original S code would help resale as well and fetch a bit more than the 428 because it's "correct" to those that this matters to but will need to be correct date coded as well which can be a PIA. Sounds like you want this for a driver though so see what you can find. Some good books to get for reading are Steve Christ's "how to rebuild big block ford engines" and George Reid's "ford engine parts interchange" Both of these will disscuss the differences of the FE blocks and parts and explain the casting numbers and date codes and how to read and rebuild them. There are too many guy's out there waiting for your hard earned cash to sell you crap parts and tell you it's a SUPER COBRA JET HIGH PERFORMANCE HIGH NICKLE CONTENT LEMANS 427 HIGHRISER TUNNELRAM POLICE INTERCEPTOR etc.....you get the idea. Ask qusetions as you go and try to find the books I've listed. Perhaps some members might have some links for you also to check out. I have a few and will find them for you. You will want to learn about stock cyl bores, overbore and what the different blocks can be safely bored to. This will save you hassles and $$$ at the machine shop. Do it right and you'll be rewarded with a good running engine you can enjoy. Sorry to be long winded...I'm a little gassy today. G.

G,

Thanks for the advice. I had ordered the book by Christ but the other also sounds like it will be very useful. I noticed last night that there are many online sites which have the names and addresses, phone numbers of junkyards throughout Indiana that are close or up to several hours away. I could send them emails as well but what is the likelihood that many of these guys know what they have. I suppose the best deals are often where the guy doesn't know the potential value of what he has. Years ago (25 or so) it used to be I could just walk into a junkyard, look for the part, remove it myself, and then barter with the owner till we agreed upon price. It was usually some gnarly looking guy with a couple of really mean looking dogs who could look pretty intimidating. But that was long ago and faraway (Canada actually). Anyway, Another question. A number of people on this forum and past messages I've read have said that it would be better to go with the 428. Isn't it a lot less likely to run across a 428? Were all 428's S code or was there such a thing as a 428 2V? Maybe I'm asking dumb questions and should wait till the books come.

Have to say that its nice to get some really helpful comments without listening to people who just want to put you down and make you realize you don't know much.

Cheers,

Rob

Robin, Richard has some good advice about looking for a entire car. You never know and may come across something. Off the top of my head I don't think there was a 2bbl 428 offered as the 428 was the performance engine that kind of took the place of the expensive 427. Ford was looking for a budget performance engine and the 428 was it. Yes they are a little harder to come by but they are out there. I'd also recommend trying to find a complete long or short block to try to save some money. Now the 428 will be more expensive than finding a $200 390. Most 428 short blocks are $1000 to 2000 some are rebuilt and some not and longblocks a little more. But thats just a basic comparison. As you read the books and become more familer you will understand how to ID engines and components for the different years and displacments. This site is a must read www.428cobrajet.org This is the CJ registry and an excellent source of info and seeing the different components of the 428 CJ and SCJ engines. Also some good reading about the two. Your very smart reading up on things first before diving in as this is an expensive hobby. Another good forum is the Ford FE forum at network 54 www.fordfe.com So good luck and I'll keep a look out for a 428 and pass info along to you. Oh and the mustang 428 cars were R, Q and P codes not S codes and started in 68 1/2 and were in the Mustangs, Shelby's, LTD police cars, Galaxies, Fairlanes and some I think in Tbirds to name a few. Mercury had their line of cars as well. So ask questions as you go and find things out. Good luck and that stang sounds like a nice one. G.

Richard and G,

I agree that it might be easier (and cheaper) to buy the whole car but then one needs room to put it at least until the engine is removed. I have the driveway but then the garage is taken up with the mustang and a lot of storage. Unfortunately the house is on a crawlspace so storage is at a premium. I am phoning junkyards in Indiana to see what they have. There are some nice sites that list them by state. I think that

It must be possible (through Ford) to find out all the models that 390 and 428's came in. The list for 428's is a lot shorter and other blocks will work for a 390 as well. I understand that compression dropped to 9.5 :1 in 69 but could these still be bumped up by simply milling the heads? Someone in another post also mentioned the issue of compatible engine mountings?

The 428 sounds fine but the expense might be prohibitive if a block costs that much. A 4 speed tranny would be nice too but thats probably even rarer and could be added after the fact.

There are many older cars in the Auto trader, possibly looking at the issue for this area could come up with some older cars with the right motor. Thanks again for being generous with your time on these psotings.

Rob

Rob, first firgure a good 428 block will run around $400-800 depending on if it's a std 428 or CJ block. This is just for the block. This is also going by DSC's pricing and you might do better and come across something though. A 390 might be a better alternative cash wise and you can put a 428 crank in it to make a 410. Port the heads and get a nice cam, intake and carb and rebuild it and you should have a nice 390. This is way cheaper than a 428 and for the most part just as good and 400 HP is very doable. Early FE blocks (64 and earlier) have 2 bolt motor mounts and the 65 and later the 4 bolt. You can easily convert later mounts to fit an early block if needed. You can also use steel shim head gaskets to bump the comp ratio up a bit if needed before milling the heads. DSC sells them for 390's and 428/427's for $30 a set. Toploaders can be found in good condition fairly cheap but take Richards warning as well advised. A 5sp Tremec conversion is also a nice option as well and can be done easily. Either way it sounds like things are moving along nicely for you. Take your time and look at a few different engines and compare what they have vs the price. Most FE engines have been rebuilt a few times and some have a interesting assortment of parts. The casting numbers will tell most of the story as far as what parts are in the engines you look at. Most guy's will have no problem taking a head off or the oil pan for you to inspect the bore and internals. The ones who won't might have something to hide so be careful. Good luck and let us know how you make out.

Glenn.

Glenn, Richard,


Thanks. I got a copy of the Christ book today and spent a few hours looking it over. Lots of good information. Given my budget, or lack thereof, I may have to settle for the 390 but could certainly get good hp out of it. I'll still keep an eye out for a 428 but right now under $500 to get started is all I could afford. My first kid (of three) just started college and we are determined that she not have a ton of debt when she gets out so we're paying it all (which is making money pretty tight).

I had mentioned several times that I was not sure I could recognize suitable models or years in a junkyard that might have candidate engines. There are some great websites that show pictures of all the ford models by year with engine info; very helpful!

As a matter of interest if I wanted to get the right date code 390 what would be involved? I've heard several people say that it has to be within three months of production or something to that affect?

Everything you guys have said so far, and what I've read suggests that it is always better if you can see the motor working (as in buying an old beater) or disassembled so you can check wear and damage yourself.

We just had our first snow fall today here in Indiana so I probably won't be wandering any junkyards for a while. Many are online or at least have a phone number to call. My job takes me a lot into rural areas and I have seen some larger older junkyards in the middle of nowhere that might be less picked over.

An interesting option on my mustang that is very rare, is a tilt fold away steering column. Pretty cool.

Rob

A date code engine will be a harder find and take some time to search for but see what you can find. I've seen people (and still do) search for years for correct dated parts. And a running engine is by far the best find. Now as you get into the books you will notice some FE/FT blocks share the same casting numbers. This is where you will need to check the bore and crank stroke etc....of the engine to verify what it is. No biggie but it can get a little confusing. So as good as a running engine is to find it's also good to know what's inside as well. I've had some real cobbled junk over the years. Mismatched rods, pushrods even pistons! found in running engines. But that is easy enough to correct with the right parts. I would not get too hung up on the date code thing. Maybe you can find a nice running engine to use then look for a correct date code engine as time and money allow. At least you can drive and enjoy the car as you decide which to pursue. That is unless a correct date code engine comes your way.....then grab it! G.

POTAMOGETON,CANT ACCESS THIS SITE FROM WORK, EMAIL ME AT GFUGGITI@KLEINISD.NET FOR A FE MOTOR. THANKS

Hey Rob, I have 1968 390 That I ran in my mach 1 for a few years that I just pulled out a few weeks ago. I actually thought it was 1968 428, but when I checked the bore, It was a standard 390. Anywase, I would like to sell it. Let me know if your interested.
- Nick
(HockersN@msoe.edu)

There were also a couple of years of full size Ford and Mercury, as well as Thunderbirds (and I think Lincolns) that had a 428 engine. Was pretty common as a police motor around 1966-67. Not a CJ, but a workable block.

An option is to take the 390 block (4.05 bore) and fit it with a 1U crankshaft. This yields the Merc 410, which isn't a bad setup. The one I'm building for my pickup is bored .060, for a total of 4.11 - close to the 4.13 of the 428. 1U crank was also used in the 428, so I'm at something like 422ci at this point. It ran well when taken out of the car, only prob was premature failure of a cheap timing chain (stretched - timing was erratic). Had the CJ/390GT cam and 390GT intake and exhaust, and was pretty strong.

I know DennyW makes a lot of power with his 410...

These guys are not BSing you on the cost of a good 428. My dad has been offered 3,000 for his, but he wont part with it. There are some options that are better hidden. For instance the 406 shared the same bore as a 428 but ran a 390 crank. And 410's ran 428 cranks in 390 bores. These are much easier to come by with out saying the magic words (actually numbers) 428.

First time poster, and I have a question. Lets just say that you want to build a 410 using a 390 block. I am going to assume that you would use the standard 6.486-6.490" rods, then what pistons would be needed? I don't recall having seen "410" pistons. The 390 pistons wouldn't work, would they because the pin height would be to low for the longer stroke?

I believe the 410's were a 390 with a 428 crankshaft.. FFR should be along later to clarify for both of us.....

Dave is right. The 410 was a 4.05 bore block with a 3.98 crank. Some truck engines from the 70's used 410 pistons for lower compression. They even have 410 stamped on them LOL. Short FE rods are correct. Denny has a 410 maybe he'll chime in and give ya the specs....G.

I like big blocks. But remember, they are much more difficult to work on, and more expensive to buy parts for. And the car has less balance. If mine already had a small block, and cost was a consideration...

btw, no one mentioned it yet, but you'll need the 16 bolt heads only available in intermediate and Mustang/Cougar, won't you?

Wow,

Just got back on this forum and realized two years have gone by. Life kind of just happens. I haven't done anything since my last post but am am determined to finally get going on this project this coming spring. So am going searching in junkyards. I have located a number of sites with older cars that are more out of the way. I run across them on backroads when I am travelling the state. Is there a good book that illustrates different ford/mercury models especially through the sixties and early seventies? Are the block codes the same across different models of ford? S code for 390 and so on? Is the only difference between the 428 2V and 4V the manifold and carburetion?

Cheers,

Rob

Rob try the classifieds at www.fordfe.com lots of 390/428's for sale. Plus what seems to be a nice 427 block for $1000 in northwest IN!!! It's still up for grabs but at that price not for long.

G.

Block casting numbers are pretty much the same as far as Ford's and Merc's go. They are also generic meaning the same casting number can be found on many different bore blocks. So they are not really the best way to ID a block. Granted there are some block numbers paticular to certain blocks. But for the most part very hard to tell what's what from the outside. Head, intake etc....casting numbers are pretty good and can pretty much ID from them. On the blocks you can look for the foundry logos ex: DIF, CF and MCC. Those plus the date code can timeframe the block. But internal inspection will give you the real skinny on things. Some of the 428 blocks can ne ID'd by a sandscratch "A or C" on the back. Even a few 428 PI blocks have a "S". Some earlier blocks like the 390HP, 406 and 63 427 used a "HP" identifier on them that will designate them as hipo blocks. And those HP blocks also have a paticular casting number that applies for the most part. www.428cobrajet.com is another good site to read up on the 428.

G.

Glenn,

Thanks for the help. I can't see where you mean on fordfe.com.

Rob

Guys,

So I am looking into this 427. The person selling only lives about 20 miles from me. It is only the block with nothing else. Is it not far more expensive to try to rebuild a 427 even just to find a set of heads than my original plan with a 390 and 428 crank. Certainly the 427 was never found in a 1968 Mustang. Just doing some reading tells me that early 427's had problems (top oilers) getting enough oil and that as of 1965 the oil galleries were improved. The bore would seem to indicate that this has already been re-bored once?

Rob

Rob sorry I just posted a link to the site not the classified ad. Thank you Denny!! :) I see you found the ad tho....worth a look for sure! At 4.250 the block is only .020 over. Some of those early blocks are thick uns and can go much more. If it's a 63 block there should be HP cast on the side,back and twice inside the block. Date code will tell you also. And crossbolt maincaps should be there!! And 63 blocks only have the 2 bolt motor mount bosses. Not a problem for the mustang either and easy to remedy. That block will also have press in freeze plugs not screw in so ask to drill bit test the block. The block at that price might have been windowed and repaired. But if done right not an issue. I had one old windowed block I ran for years. And as a 63 427 it will have a certain casting number and not generic. If you want you can PM me and I'll send you my phone number if you want to talk. I can fill you in on other details and give more info. It was the much mythed W code mustang that had the 427. Supposedly these never came to be. But you can never say never. There were some dealers who installed them. On pg 2 on that forum there is an ad posted by Dan Bell for Robie Ford. A dealer who installed 427's in mustangs. Very interesting. Seems he's not firm on the price either. Bring a dial caliper with you to measure the cyl bore. If you don't have one Home Cheapo sells them for $30. Good to have. :)

Early topoilers oiled just fine. They have larger oil passages than other blocks and also have a oil pressure releif valve. These are also solid lifter only blocks. You can use 390 heads on them. The 427 300hp marine version used 390 heads,intake and internals. CJ sized valves would help with a little port cleanup. You don't have to break the bank on a 427 build beleive me!! :3dSMILE: Lots of options.

G.

Denny, Glenn,

Thanks for the posts. I did some reading back in my Mustang manuals etc and you are both right on that the 427 was offered as a W code 390 hp, 10.9: 1 only in 1968. A 428 was not offered in 1968. In 1969 it went to the 428 and 429. Hhhhmmm.

Rob

The 68.5 CJ stang was the first to have a 428. These were R code cars. Bought my first one for $100 way back when. Now they sell for $100k...who knew?? LOL Many will argue the fact a mustang never got the 427. Supposedly it was dropped for the 428CJ as they were cheaper to build and warrenty. The 427's were hand built on a seperate line. Where the 428's were built on the std production assy line. Another FE myth....or was it? Maybe Myth Busters can look into the 427 mustang and clear things up for us all???

LOL

G.

Guys,

Speaking of the 427 I found the info below on the website indicated. So I guess no 427 Mustangs were ever made. Be interesting to look into this. Anyone out there own one of these Cougars?


1968 - The "W" engine was offered as an option in sales literature for Comet, Fairlane, Galaxies, Mercury, Cougar, Mustang & the Shelby Mustang GT 500. The W code 427 was the standard engine in the 1968 Mercury Cougar GT/E. In mid year, the W code was replaced in production by the 428 CJ. No other examples of this engine actually being installed have been found.

http://www.carmemories.com/cgi-bin/v...erience_id=133

Denny,

So does that mean that the dealer also changed the VIN number. Otherwise how would you authenticate that this was not something the person did themselves much later? That it was a true W code.

Rob

Denny,

I'm not suggesting anyone is wrong. I'm just curious about whether any were ever factory installed. I have a lot of information on muistangs including the original 1968 information and many books since and they all mention it as you have said but there are no production numbers.

Thanks for all the info.

Rob

Hey Rob did you ever go see that 427 block? Just wondering what he had for the price.

G.

Glenn,

He never got back to me with an address or contact info. So I guess he sold it. I will go back to my original plan of of finding a 390 block with a modest rebuild and maybe a 428 crank. Financially this will also not cost me an arm and a leg. I certainly appreciate your help and will keep you posted. Maybe someone on this forum is close to the Chicago area and has a decent block for sale.

Cheers,

Rob

Oh sorry to hear it never worked out. Sounds like a good plan on the 390/410. I know there are a few guys on the net54 forum from Chi-town. Maybe keep a eye out there also when your ready. I spent a good part of my childhood growing up in Park Ridge. Well good luck anf keep us posted.

G.

Another option is, I know at the machine shop that does my motors, they've just accumulated motors and parts over the years through deals and payments for other motors so if you talk to a machine shop they may have what your looking for. Suchas I had a 352 and were in need of a 390 and oddly enough he got me a 390 from the back of the shop.

Hello all,

Haven't been on for awhile. I had a lead on a junkyard with older cars that I visited this past weekend. I found a nice 390 4 bbl in a 67 T-Bird but couldn't get it to turn over. I only had a ratchet and nothing I could use as a cheater to get more torque on it. The owner tried today with a big bar but still could not get it to crank over. The carb has been exposed for I don't know how long although the motor looked in good shape. So do I give up on and assume its seized or is it worth taking the heads off and having a better look? He sells his motors for $250 removed from the car which is a good deal (obviously not if it is seized). A buddy of mine picked up two 440's from him recently for that price. He has a 1974 390 (presumably an FT) from a pickup truck already good to go.

Robin

Well if your interested a guy I know here in CT has a good running 390 and C6 for $200...and I bet he'd take $100 just to get it out of the garage.

I would not try to break that engine free right away. I'd oil it down first and several times after with PB blaster and some 10-30. But it might be worth pulling the head off and having a look inside.

G.

Glenn,

Thanks. Are you talking about oiling up the bolts to get the heads off or about getting oil into the cylinder heads? How do I do the latter without removing the heads? The prroblem is that it is about an hour drive out to this junkyard.

Robin

Main concern is the rings frozen in the bore and stuck valves. I remove all the spark plugs and valve covers and oil down the engine with oil and PB blaster daily for a few weeks. And slowly work it free You can even just remove the rocker assy to avoid that issue completely. I do the tap and set for rusty bolts. Spray the penetrating oil onto the bolts and tap them with a brass drift and hammer. A torch is good too. The main thing is you want to get it apart without issue. That could be a problem is the car is an hour away tho. Now the other thing is maybe have him pull the engine and then give it the once over. Look at the back of the block for any sandscratchs. A or S would be a 428. Maybe ask to remove the oilpan and see how the internals are and ID the crank. It could be a 360 or 352 for all we know.

G.