[57 Thunderbird] Running Rough

Hello all,

I have a 57 Thunderbird that I can't get to run smoothly. 312 Y block with 3x2bbl carbs (Ford/Holley 2100). This requires a bit of a preamble, however.

THE PREAMBLE: Awhile back, I pushed my luck with how far I could go on a tank of gas, and ended up dry and unable to start. After buying some gas (and a gas can) and filling her back up, when I finally got her started, I had a huge backfire out the center carb. She idled super rough but I was able to drive her home. I suspect I created a vacuum problems or blew out a gasket or something. She was already leaking from everywhere and needed a rebuild anyway. I got her back a couple months ago but she still idles super rough.

THE PRESENT: I'm rebuildling all the carbs now (just a simple disassembly/carb soak/toothbrushing/new gaskets). However I'm afraid of how smoothly everything will go when I try to put everything back together. I've never tuned a card before, nevermind a tricarb setup. Add that onto I'm not sure if the vacuum system had/still has leak or if the engine is even firing 100% right. (having not done the rebuild myself, I naturally don't trust the work)

Any novice-level advice for (only owned this car 2 yrs, driven it 1) putting this miniature Exxon-Valdez back together smoothly?

I'd venture to say that by letting the tank run dry you put a lot of crud into the fuel system. I would pull the tank and flush it out and blow out the fuel line from the tank to the fuel pump. Replace any and all fuel filters and after you get it running again you might have to replace them a couple of more times.
Rebuilding the carbs is not that involved as long as they are cleaned thoroughly and all of the passages are blown out with compressed air.
Tuning them is another story as they should be balanced.

Welcome to CHR. Ken and I were typing at the same time, but I'm more wordy!

Based on my past I'd say that it's a pretty good bet that you sucked out a bunch of sediment out of the bottom of your gas tank when you ran out of gas. Hopefully you have an inline filter that caught most, if not all of it. If you haven't changed the filter that's the first order of business, and be aware that you may still have a buildup in the line from the tank, so a second filter change may be in your future. Blowing back through the line with compressed air towards the tank would be a really good idea.

If you don't have an inline filter then you probably plugged the screen on the inlet to the carbs, or may have just pumped the sediment into your float bowls where it's partially plugged the jets. After you soak the carbs you'll want to blow compressed air through all of the passages to be sure they're clear. Then after it's all clean and dry re-assemble in a sanitary area. Cleanliness is important at this step.

You probably already know, but it's worth saying that your center carb should be the only one with an idle circuit, with the two outer units serving as secondaries, only coming into play when you get into the throttle harder. You run on one 2-barrel for economy, then have four secondaries to come in when you need more power.

Good luck with the rebuild! While you're in there trace back every vacuum line to be sure that nothing blew off with the back fire, and if you find any hoses dry and cracking this is the time to buy ten feet or so of new hose and replace all of them, one at a time.

One other note, make sure that any rubber components are ethanol friendly as ethanol will degrade the old style rubber over a period of time.

Does your fuel pump have the vacume boost for the windshield wipers?
Does your distributor have vacume AND mech advance?
Is the distributor vacume line hooked to a carb venturi port?


You will need to change all the old rubber lines to new lines compatable with todays fuel
You will probably need to change filters 3 times to get past crap out of system

Just to clarify and focus on the actual problem, when you said that you've

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Originally Posted by 605Scorpion

(only owned this car 2 yrs, driven it 1)

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can we assume that when you were out on your drive the 'Bird was running fine, no ignition problems, no missing, but simply ran out of fuel? Just thinking that we can perhaps keep from chasing a bunch of rabbit trails if we know all of the facts up front. BTW, you did an excellent job with the "Preamble", IMO.

I'm seeing a consensus on the fuel filter, hah. I guess that should be top priority right now, considering how easy it is.

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Originally Posted by rspears

Just to clarify and focus on the actual problem, when you said that you've can we assume that when you were out on your drive the 'Bird was running fine, no ignition problems, no missing, but simply ran out of fuel? Just thinking that we can perhaps keep from chasing a bunch of rabbit trails if we know all of the facts up front. BTW, you did an excellent job with the "Preamble", IMO.

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I made it to work, and after coming back out to drive home (12hrs later), it wouldn't start. I spent abour half an hour trying to crank. Not constantly, of course. I would crank, feather the gas, etc. I asked the security guards for a cord to plug the battery into, wait 5 min, try again, etc. Then, I went and bought the gas can and filled her up and had a backfire. Call it a transitional period from contemporary cars to classic cars. ;) You learn you can't pull certain shenanigans with old cars, lol.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jerry clayton

Does your fuel pump have the vacume boost for the windshield wipers?
Does your distributor have vacume AND mech advance?
Is the distributor vacume line hooked to a carb venturi port?

You will need to change all the old rubber lines to new lines compatable with todays fuel
You will probably need to change filters 3 times to get past crap out of system

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I forgot about this, but yes, the vaccuum is connected to the wipers. After the backfire, the wipers had trouble getting up, hence why the vaccuum advance is drawing my suspicion so much. I forgot about this and haven't tried the wipers since the rebuild.

I'm not 100% sure about the advance. Is a centrifugal advance the same as a mechanical advance?
"The function of the 1957 distributor differs from the '55 and '56 models in that the 57 model has centrifugal and vacuum advance."

The line was attached at the time of the incident. It's not attached now, but it's part of the process I got for this weekend when I put the carbs back on the manifold.


Thanks for all the replies everyone!

Are your carbs 3 or 4 bolt base and what intake manifold do you have--I'm assuming either a Fenton or Edelbrock aluminum
In those years lots of confusion about firing orders as Ford numbered there cylinders different from GM and Mopar plus Ford change order when FE engines came out in 1958.


Also, these engines had very poor top end oiling system and of course no top oil no drainback to lube cam lifters-your engine with new oil and inadeque top end oil flow could of wiped a cam lobe/lifter or a few of them--if you can run it with valve covers removed look to see that the push rods are rotating/spinning-if not probably bad cam lobe/lifter. The lifters (tappets) can only be removed with the cam out of the block so if you do get involved with this carefully lay every thing out in order so if you find a damaged part you can look at other pieces for same location.


Also, if you ever have the timing cover off to replace chain, gears, cam------it doesn't go back on with the gear marks aligned-they get set so theres 12 pins /links in the chain between the marks-timing chains back in THOSE DAYS had 2 links that were shinier/marked for this.


These engines had umbrella valve stem seals and they dried up deteriated with time and came apart into coffee ground looking pieces which plugged up oil return holes and eventually the oil pump screen.

I saw that the op was on line for a while but no post?????? or is his posts being delayed until moderator can approve them??? Might make this a drawn out project---------


Of course tho he is near Pearl Harbor and my old rear engine dragster is near there so maybe I'll just wander over and take a look see-------

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jerry clayton

Are your carbs 3 or 4 bolt base and what intake manifold do you have--I'm assuming either a Fenton or Edelbrock aluminum
In those years lots of confusion about firing orders as Ford numbered there cylinders different from GM and Mopar plus Ford change order when FE engines came out in 1958.

Also, these engines had very poor top end oiling system and of course no top oil no drainback to lube cam lifters-your engine with new oil and inadeque top end oil flow could of wiped a cam lobe/lifter or a few of them--if you can run it with valve covers removed look to see that the push rods are rotating/spinning-if not probably bad cam lobe/lifter. The lifters (tappets) can only be removed with the cam out of the block so if you do get involved with this carefully lay every thing out in order so if you find a damaged part you can look at other pieces for same location.

Also, if you ever have the timing cover off to replace chain, gears, cam------it doesn't go back on with the gear marks aligned-they get set so theres 12 pins /links in the chain between the marks-timing chains back in THOSE DAYS had 2 links that were shinier/marked for this.

These engines had umbrella valve stem seals and they dried up deteriated with time and came apart into coffee ground looking pieces which plugged up oil return holes and eventually the oil pump screen.

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They're all 3 bolts. And an Edelbrock manifold.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jerry clayton

I saw that the op was on line for a while but no post?????? or is his posts being delayed until moderator can approve them??? Might make this a drawn out project---------

Of course tho he is near Pearl Harbor and my old rear engine dragster is near there so maybe I'll just wander over and take a look see-------

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Yeah, I don't know why that is? Anti-spam measure?
EDIT: Wierd. I made another post earlier but that one said it required mod approval. Strange!~

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Originally Posted by NTFDAY

I'd venture to say that by letting the tank run dry you put a lot of crud into the fuel system. I would pull the tank and flush it out and blow out the fuel line from the tank to the fuel pump. Replace any and all fuel filters and after you get it running again you might have to replace them a couple of more times.
Rebuilding the carbs is not that involved as long as they are cleaned thoroughly and all of the passages are blown out with compressed air.
Tuning them is another story as they should be balanced.

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I finished the rebuild(s) just today. As soon as I get a good time slot at night I'm going to reinstall them (my building doesn't really allow car work in the parking structure, so I always do work at 2AM to avoid detection, lol). I'm hoping the tuning is harder in my mind than it really will be IRL, cause I'm actually rather concerned the thing wont start properly or will run like crap when I try. :(

tuning issues--------vacume wipers? vacume boost from fuel pump for wipers?lot of rubber possible for leaks
Vaccume advance to dist should be from a venture ported source-


on those set ups lots of rubber hoses not compatable with todays fuel--


crud---several filter changes before you get it all--carry extra fuel filters and pliers so you can change them---


check throttle shafts for wear in carb body ( vacume leaks) don't use Teflon tape any where in fuel system----
Find out were my dragster and pinto is and maybe I'll come and lend you ahand
don't think I been there since 95 or 96

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jerry clayton

Vaccume advance to dist should be from a venture ported source

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I maybe wrong, but I believe 1957 was pre-smog regulations and the vacuum advance would be hooked to manifold vacuum (below venturi).

And, there is the possibility that the motor not starting and running poorly is not the cause of the gas, but rather some other cause, such as a timing chain.

On Ford products they used venturi ported vaccume-they didn't even have mech advance until maybe 1957-------it was reverse of what/how GM did it


also ----pre unleaded gas and cats


even before pcv valves-road draft tubes


at least most were 12 volts by then but still generators and wet batteries


manual roll up windows


some cars had tip out vent windows


how about fender mount mirrors


57 first year for 14 in tires ( all were tubeless by then)


pushbutton radio (am) and rear speaker option but not sterio


no quad headlights ( except Lincoln )


Metric system was here-7mm plug wires, 14, 18mm spark plugs

Again, I may be wrong, but I thought in 1957 Ford changed to vac and mech advance distributors similar to GM and used manifold vacuum.

I'm remembering the evening in about '67 or '68 when I ran my old '60 Chevy 2dr HT out of gas on the way home, and bummed a couple of gallons from the farmer near by, out of his storage tank. Got it lit off, but it ran like crap, popping and cracking, backfiring through the carb, and generally being a PITB trying to get the five miles to town. Limped into a local shop, and the guy pulled the 4 bbl carb off of the old 348, and dropped it into a 5 gallon can of Gunk carb cleaner. The next morning I was down there early and he took it all apart, and put in the kit, spending a bit of time getting the float level just right. An hour later the carb was back on the car, it lit off after a bit of cranking to get the float bowl filled, and ten minutes later the idle mixture was set and I was on the road.

I'd concentrate on getting the carbs cleaned up, back together, and back in place before I chased any more rabbit trails other than tracing and maybe replacing vacuum lines if they're old and dry. Running out of gas generally doesn't result in a bunch of other problems. Chase one gremlin at a time would be my recommendation.

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Originally Posted by rspears

. Running out of gas generally doesn't result in a bunch of other problems. Chase one gremlin at a time would be my recommendation.

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You should have seen the crud and corruption that came out the fuel line and tank of my 76 Vette after it had set for a couple of years. The fuel filter was almost totally plugged and the inside of the Q-jet was one of the worst I've seen coming off a running vehicle.

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Originally Posted by NTFDAY

You should have seen the crud and corruption that came out the fuel line and tank of my 76 Vette after it had set for a couple of years. The fuel filter was almost totally plugged and the inside of the Q-jet was one of the worst I've seen coming off a running vehicle.

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Ken, I agree 100%, and that's part a part of chasing the initial problem like you and I both said at the start of this thread. If it were mine I'd focus on the fuel system, tank through carbs, and be sure that was all cleaned up before I started worrying with any other possible gremlins. Just my $0.02, based on my life experiences.

I would imagine that the sock in the fuel tank if not plugged is close to being plugged and that's why I recommended dropping the tank and cleaning it out along with blowing out the fuel line.

Fords have always used venturi vacume source for dist advance and they didn't start mech advance until 1957-it also entailed a new design on the contact and condenser---the poit set was more of a curve shape base and the condenser also had a curved tab kinda off the end instead of the previous straight tab from the middle. The mech advance stuff was below the breaker plate and had 2 different advance slots and you could oil it via a felt tab under the rotor unlike the GM version that you couldn't lube.


In those years there was a tap for manifold vac for the wipers with an section (double diaphragm) on the fuel pump to boost the suck so wipers would work when you were on the gas--
No PCV until later-had a mount on the lower left side of block forward of oil filter for the road draft tube which is how crankcase was vented-------

Thanks Jerry, I was unaware of Ford using venturi vacuum advance after 1957, my bad.

While I have no doubt the fuel system needs attention, these are the clues that led me to think there may also be other issues and some further testing may be in order;

“605Scorpion; I made it to work, and after coming back out to drive home (12hrs later), it wouldn't start.”

Usually, when the gas runs out the motor stops on its own (this is not written in stone, just an observation). Many a time, a loose timing chain will skip on shut down and give trouble on re-start (a classic symptom). A timing light will show a worn chain by erratic movement of the timing. A simple test, just a thought to check.

“605Scorpion; I forgot about this, but yes, the vacuum is connected to the wipers. After the backfire, the wipers had trouble getting up, hence why the vacuum advance is drawing my suspicion so much.

Usually, when the fuel pump supplies vacuum (if indeed it has a vacuum boost fuel pump) and the vacuum decreases, the fuel pump diaphragm is usually compromised. A pressure gauge on the carburetor fuel line will show if there is low pressure from the pump. Keep in mind a clogged filter(s) can cause low pressure too and its a good idea to check the filters for flow restrictions if the pressure is low. A simple test, just a thought to check.

And, keep in mind that the OP said he had the carbs re-built, but is doing it again himself because he doesn’t trust the first job. Again, pointing to other possible problems that he may have already been warned. Rule of thumb, assume nothing, test everything.

My point is, the OP states he has owned the car for 2 years and driven it for 1 year. IMHO, he has jumped ahead of basic trouble shooting principles assuming the carbs are at fault, when there could be other issues. A few extra minutes of testing could have been better spent, i.e., compression test, fuel pressure, ignition. Granted the fuel filters probably need changing, as does the sock in the tank.

However, IMHO "Test, test, test, spend less, less, less".

Sorry for the rant.

In addition the "basic tests".. We haven't really heard much in regards to any basic maintenance.. was any performed?

Like 36 C-dan... I cannot say the carbs are the problem.. I think there are potentially other issues also.

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Originally Posted by 34_40

In addition the "basic tests".. We haven't really heard much in regards to any basic maintenance.. was any performed?

Like 36 C-dan... I cannot say the carbs are the problem.. I think there are potentially other issues also.

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I'm not saying that carbs are his only problem, but when you run an old car dry and then it acts up on restart chances are you've plugged up fuel filters, the sock in the tank, or pumped the carb(s) full of sediment, especially if there's no in-line filter which would have been an aftermarket add on sometime in the past 58 years. It's always worked best for me to work one problem at a time before jumping in and starting to pull other things apart, especially considering that our poster said at the start he's looking for novice level advice and that he's in a high rise apartment building, working at 2am to hide the fact that he's working on the car in his parking spot against the rules. Seems to me that we can get him in over his head pretty quick here, but whatever's right......:rolleyes:;)**)

I'm done, at least until he comes back with some feedback or asking another specific question, and he's five hours earlier than me here in the heartland, so it's a loooooooong time until 2am for him.;):LOL::LOL::LOL:

LOL! You're probably right.

Alright y'all. I'm back after quite an absence ready for more advice, lol.

I did the carb rebuild, and everything went smooth until I tried to crank it up. It was running to fast. (circa 2K) After some musing, asking my pops, etc. I tried adjusting the floats, it indeed had an effect, but way too low. It was idling at 450 and struggling to even sustain the combustion cycle. Plus I was hearing some pops. Misfires, clanging? I was out of time for the day, and had to call it quits. I was so dejected I kinda just gave up on it for awhile, but I back to solve it finally.:rolleyes: I live in a barracks so I can't just leave a car that looks like it wont run lying around, so that was just an additional factor in me not wanting to work on it. Whatever. Moving on!

Any advice for float levels? The specs cited in manual are useless (since it's an aftermarket combo). The literature cited in my rebuild kits seem impossible.

PS: Thanks for all the replies earlier! I really appreciate everyone willing to throw in their two cents. :)

In my experience with carb kits the instructions for float level have been crystal clear, and for everything but the performance carbs that have a sight plug and screw adjustment it's generally to hang the float from the carb top, carefully invert the assembly and check the level between the highest point on the float and the carb top, now sitting beneath the high point. Adjustment to match the specs shown on the instruction sheet (usually a picture) is as simple as carefully bending the tab that pushes the needle into the seat. Often they give you a little cardboard go/no go gauge cut to the proper level setting. You don't want to adjust by pressing on the needle, as you can destroy the sealing surface on the needle/seat assembly and you'll be buying a new kit.

Are you seeing something different in the kit you used?

If I recall the info I had was for the bottom of the float, not the top. I'll be looking at it this weekend reguardless.