Give me some input for my wacky idea please.

Hi guys, I have my 40 Ford Deluxe and I yanked the 377 in hopes to put a 354 Hemi in it. I've got the hemi but that's it. I'm stuck on trans choice now. I might go T5 5 speed, but that won't be strong enough in the future. The parts to get the Hemi in the car and then the stuff I need to rebuild and replace on this car is going to be a lot of money. I've got another idea for it too, but most street rodders will really cry about this.

I'm a diesel guy at heart. I have many customer trucks running around with over 400HP getting 16-23mpg. Seeing how I'm going to have to install a new fire wall, modify/rebuild my X member and trans mount, maybe modify the floor pan, beef up my MII front end, buy or build new engine mounts, to put the hemi in. Doing all this work would allow me to drop a cummins diesel in it too. Benefits of this would be great fuel mileage, unique, and I know I can build this cheap and have 400HP without killing mileage. I'd like to get my car drive able and done enough to take on power tour this year. That's another reason why the budget is tight.

I know the die hard 40 Ford guys will be madder than crap when they see this done. Most cried about a SBC in it. I really like the thought of the 354 in it, but IDK if I can get it done this year. I have all the hard parts to put the cummins in it. I just can't bring myself to do it. Yet. **) I know I'll miss the loud gas engine and the high rpm's. But being affordable to cruise and not worry is good too. Please give me your thoughts good or bad. Thanks Ryan.

I have a friend who was making plans to drop a diesel in a classic Caddy, saying the same things about mileage & power but he ended up switching to a late model Chevy LT motor. He decided that he did not want to listen to the diesel clatter all the time.

I'd use the hemi, and then take a look at the Tremec tranny's. I'm running a TKO600 and love it.

Well Welcome to CHR..First I have never built a car for myself wondering what the other guy is going to say. That said if a diesel turns you on why not. It sounds like you like to drive it , make it the way you want it. ENJOY

I doubt the M2 suspension will carry it but... build it like you want it! It would make me smile! But. I wouldn't want to listen to it... LOL...

hemi hemi hemi hemi hemi

Chassis Engineering in Iowa for mounts, etc

Diesels are the new Hemis! ;-) Go for it... You can always put the Hemi in next time.

You have to build it for you. If you want a hemi, do a hemi. If you want a diesel, then do a diesel. Don't worry about what others will say because it isn't their car. If you have your heart set on the diesel and then do a hemi, down the line, you will probably regret it.

Welcome to CHR!

One of the great things about hot rodding is that "there's no one right way" to build your rod. I'd certainly listen to input on suspension as it relates to weight and performance characteristics as these are basic life safety considerations however; put the power plant you want in the car! I'm with Evolvo - go for it!!!

I've seen a lot of rods with SBC engines and I'm kind of a Chevy guy myself but I always appreciate those that go outside the box and install a Buick V6 or an inline engine. Hot roddin' is about more than just going fast - it's about creativity and expressing your self.

I learned a lesson early on from a "pretty-little-thing" driving a Buick. She looked about 18 or so and had blonde curly hair and smiled at me as I lumped up next to her at a stoplight in what I thought was one bad Chevy. She left me standing and when I finally caught up and talked to her she informed me that she 35 and an engineer / diesel mechanic working for a division of Freightliner and that I had been smoked by a Volvo turbo-diesel. Her diesel had more torque at 2,000 RPM than my SBC would ever make! As her '58 Buick lumbered off I caught the distinct whiff of diesel and gained a real healthy respect for both: the 105 pound girl and the turbo diesel.

Do it man - and let us see the project!

Again, Welcome,
Glenn

Which would make you happier? Having great mileage, and saving some money... or the satisfaction of seeing that classic Hemi in there?

Your own satisfation with the car is what should guide you.

To me, this hobby is about having fun.... but it's your project

there's no one right way-----but there are many zillions of wrong ways---

If the car your talking about is the one in your avator---nice looking piece--would definitely be classic with either a flat head or hemi---but a Cummins????that engine and trans will not only be too long, too heavy,, but you won't be able to spin your tires , the sound will get you snoobed/blackballed at every gathering (cummins is even sicker sound than the import fart cans)

Do some measurements and don't forget the accessories--you will also probably need to front half your frame with the dodge truck frame(probably would be the easiest way to do that swap anyway--also do some weight calculations----

Now if you were going to pull an RV trailer, maybe you could mount the 40 body on a late model mopar frame-----

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by rspears

I have a friend who was making plans to drop a diesel in a classic Caddy, saying the same things about mileage & power but he ended up switching to a late model Chevy LT motor. He decided that he did not want to listen to the diesel clatter all the time.

I'd use the hemi, and then take a look at the Tremec tranny's. I'm running a TKO600 and love it.

---

I actually was thinking of going with a T5 from a Mustang because I have one. But my whole intent in putting a Hemi in this car was to eventually super charge it. Then the T5 would have to go bye bye for sure. Again causing more work. I'm still undecided at this point.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by cffisher

Well Welcome to CHR..First I have never built a car for myself wondering what the other guy is going to say. That said if a diesel turns you on why not. It sounds like you like to drive it , make it the way you want it. ENJOY

---

I never have either but I can't make a descion right now. :(

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by 34_40

I doubt the M2 suspension will carry it but... build it like you want it! It would make me smile! But. I wouldn't want to listen to it... LOL...

---

Me either. But seeing how my suspension was hacked and butchered when it was installed, I already know it needs redone. I can beef it up how ever I need to.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jerry clayton

there's no one right way-----but there are many zillions of wrong ways---

If the car your talking about is the one in your avator---nice looking piece--would definitely be classic with either a flat head or hemi---but a Cummins????that engine and trans will not only be too long, too heavy,, but you won't be able to spin your tires , the sound will get you snoobed/blackballed at every gathering (cummins is even sicker sound than the import fart cans)


Do some measurements and don't forget the accessories--you will also probably need to front half your frame with the dodge truck frame(probably would be the easiest way to do that swap anyway--also do some weight calculations----

Now if you were going to pull an RV trailer, maybe you could mount the 40 body on a late model mopar frame-----

---

This is exactly what I was waiting to hear. First of all, a cummins may sound sick to you, that's your deal. Secondly, won't spin the tires? LMAO! Apparently you have no clue. Let's add 6000lbs to most drag cars and see how fast they go. I've got customer trucks that run 11's and drive on the street without changing anything but tire pressure. I've measured and checked, it would fit. If I can fit one in a 68 corvette, I know I can put one in my 40.

A cummins weighs 1050 with all accessories. Some I won't need. A 354 Hemi with no bracketry is 750lbs. I'm only 300lbs more heavy. I was already planning on boxing the frame rails for the hemi any way. The really big things that will decide the fate of this car are: How much $$$ I have to get it going, and what kind of mileage it will end up with. Power Tour is going to be 2500 miles if I do the long haul. I highly doubt I can swing 8 nights of hotel and gas @11-14mpg. My wife hates the idea of the cummins because this car is the only gas powered vehicle I have. LOL

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by HOTRODPAINT

Which would make you happier? Having great mileage, and saving some money... or the satisfaction of seeing that classic Hemi in there?

Your own satisfation with the car is what should guide you.

To me, this hobby is about having fun.... but it's your project

---

Your exactly right. I love to drive the car, but hate the mileage it gets and before it was a pooch. It's pretty bad when the coolest looking thing you have is also the slowest. LOL If I do go the cummins route and down the road I don't like it, I can always put the Hemi in. The only thing that I will have to change will be the engine mount locations. We'll see.

Thanks for the input guys. I apprecieate the good and bad feed back. Right now the car is sitting in the barn with the engine and trans removed. I just have to put pen to paper and figure out which route I can go and get the car back running before June. I don't want it to be a torn apart project that takes 8 years to finish. I have plenty of those already. LOL

I think i would go with the Hemi engine. If just for the looks and the resale value. The Hemi will look bad ass in a 40 Ford. Would like to find a old Hemi engine for mine.

My comment about spinning the tires was about the added traction you get with the weight--------as in a joke!!!!!!

Two other thoughts for you---- The Oldsmobile diesel from back 80s? or possibly the new hemi----performance, milage, the look and sound with either of them ----

I’m not going to stay out of which engine to use, but I will give you an alternative for a transmission and transmission adaptor.

Use an A833 overdrive 4 speed transmission and build your own adaptor.

The A833 Overdrive 4 speeds were installed in Chrysler product cars and Dodge trucks and vans from the late 70s thru the 80s. The early ones used a cast iron case, while the later ones had an aluminium case (avoid the aluminium case ones as the cases tend to crack. The A833 OD is based on the regular A833 transmission (that saw duty in such things as the 440 6 pac and Hemi cars) and will definitely stand up to some abuse. They are not as sought after as a lot of other transmissions so the buy in is usually not that bad.

Building an adaptor for one of these is pretty simple. You need the thin 3/4" adaptor plate that was used between the Hemi and Poly engines in the late 50’s. Just cut the lower legs off. You will need a flywheel, either an early Hemi flywheel (8 bolt) or a 6 bolt Poly flywheel can be used. Turn the flywheel down to the diameter of the later SB Mopar flywheel and install a SB mopar130 tooth ring gear. You’ll need a small block Mopar bellhousing preferably with the large bearing retainer hole and you’re all set. It takes a standard Chrysler started (with a 1/8” spacer).

On the Hemi you do need to check and make sure it’s already drilled for a pilot bearing (cranks used in front automatic transmissions generally weren’t).

Now the fun part, you can run some reasonably deep gears and still get good mileage and low highway RPM.

I’m running a Tri-Power 354 Hemi in my 57 Plymouth with a cast iron A833 OD and 4.10 gears (the OD drops the effective ratio to 3.00). It gets 20 MPG at 75 MPH with the AC on and I’m not a bit afraid to hammer it.


I discussed some adaptors in some old Hemi posts I did several years ago that might help.

http://www.clubhotrod.com/mopar-426-...-part-3-a.html
Just some food for thought.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mike P

I’m not going to stay out of which engine to use, but I will give you an alternative for a transmission and transmission adaptor.

Use an A833 overdrive 4 speed transmission and build your own adaptor.

The A833 Overdrive 4 speeds were installed in Chrysler product cars and Dodge trucks and vans from the late 70s thru the 80s. The early ones used a cast iron case, while the later ones had an aluminium case (avoid the aluminium case ones as the cases tend to crack. The A833 OD is based on the regular A833 transmission (that saw duty in such things as the 440 6 pac and Hemi cars) and will definitely stand up to some abuse. They are not as sought after as a lot of other transmissions so the buy in is usually not that bad.

Building an adaptor for one of these is pretty simple. You need the thin 3/4" adaptor plate that was used between the Hemi and Poly engines in the late 50’s. Just cut the lower legs off. You will need a flywheel, either an early Hemi flywheel (8 bolt) or a 6 bolt Poly flywheel can be used. Turn the flywheel down to the diameter of the later SB Mopar flywheel and install a SB mopar130 tooth ring gear. You’ll need a small block Mopar bellhousing preferably with the large bearing retainer hole and you’re all set. It takes a standard Chrysler started (with a 1/8” spacer).

On the Hemi you do need to check and make sure it’s already drilled for a pilot bearing (cranks used in front automatic transmissions generally weren’t).

Now the fun part, you can run some reasonably deep gears and still get good mileage and low highway RPM.

I’m running a Tri-Power 354 Hemi in my 57 Plymouth with a cast iron A833 OD and 4.10 gears (the OD drops the effective ratio to 3.00). It gets 20 MPG at 75 MPH with the AC on and I’m not a bit afraid to hammer it.


I discussed some adaptors in some old Hemi posts I did several years ago that might help.

http://www.clubhotrod.com/mopar-426-...-part-3-a.html
Just some food for thought.

---

Mike, thanks for the info! That definitely helps out a lot! Let me ask you this about the Hemi. Right now it has 73,000 miles on it. I got it running and it runs good and doesn't smoke at all. Do I need to worry about the heads as in the valves and seats since we have no lead in gas these days? Will this thing have enough power with a holley and or a AFB or similar on a stock 4bl intake and cam? It's rated at 280hp but who knows it it still does that this many lears later. I was planning on an intake and cam swap, but I'm not sure if it wouldn't be more beneficial to just rebuild it. If I'm going to do that I don't know if I can swing it this year. LOL

In the early hot rod era, Hemi's were the engine to have in a 40. You are correct in that it is about 200 lbs heavier than the SBC you have in it. If you have a Mustang II setup in excellent condition, you can play with the springs and it will work. Be sure and check your welds and such on the Mustang II, many are made out of a light weight material and are cracking under normal usage. If you need to replace it, do so with a FatMan product. His front ends are made from a thicker gauge material than the others, yet his prices are very good. Now, a stock 354 with only a carb change, that will not run like the 350 you have in the car - more like a good running 283. Horsepower ratings back then were at the flywheel with no acc's attached and some were fudged a bit. To make the hemi a sweet motor, you will have to rebuild and do standard hot rodding mods. Resale value, much better with hemi, just a bit less with 350, less with Cummings. Transmission for hemi -good advice from Mike P, if you want cheaper, you can adapt an old torqueflight to it - could be bullet proof.
Good luck with your choices and be sure to post and let us all know. Ray

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jerry clayton

My comment about spinning the tires was about the added traction you get with the weight--------as in a joke!!!!!!

Two other thoughts for you---- The Oldsmobile diesel from back 80s? or possibly the new hemi----performance, milage, the look and sound with either of them ----

---

Ok LOL Heck no on the 5.7 diesel. I'd like some power. Those things don't last. No on the new hemi either, mainly because I already have the 354.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Scooting

In the early hot rod era, Hemi's were the engine to have in a 40. You are correct in that it is about 200 lbs heavier than the SBC you have in it. If you have a Mustang II setup in excellent condition, you can play with the springs and it will work. Be sure and check your welds and such on the Mustang II, many are made out of a light weight material and are cracking under normal usage. If you need to replace it, do so with a FatMan product. His front ends are made from a thicker gauge material than the others, yet his prices are very good. Now, a stock 354 with only a carb change, that will not run like the 350 you have in the car - more like a good running 283. Horsepower ratings back then were at the flywheel with no acc's attached and some were fudged a bit. To make the hemi a sweet motor, you will have to rebuild and do standard hot rodding mods. Resale value, much better with hemi, just a bit less with 350, less with Cummings. Transmission for hemi -good advice from Mike P, if you want cheaper, you can adapt an old torqueflight to it - could be bullet proof.
Good luck with your choices and be sure to post and let us all know. Ray

---

Thanks for the input. I plan on replacing the stock MII cross member with a Fat Man cross member already. There's a list of things the car needs to make it right. I'd like to add a/c too since I have 2 little, little kids. So I don't know how far the money tree will reach out to this car. I have to watch it basically. LOL

As far as the engine goes, I wouldn’t worry about the heads, the early HEMIs came with pressed in, replaceable exhaust seats. I’m told they might not be as hard as the current replacement seats, but they are definitely hard enough to prevent problems associated with running unleaded fuel.

At 73K on the motor and not smoking I would look at the following.

First would be oil pressure (when hot), if that’s good you probably can get by with the motor pretty much as is but there are a couple more things I would recommend. One is to look for sludge build up (in the 50-early 60s non detergent oil combined with a road draft tube ventilation could lead to an engine that has a lot of crud build up) and address that problem if it exists. As designed the HEMIs also used a By Pass type filter system. I would recommend the By Pass valve be removed and the replaced with the plug Hot Hemi Heads sells (requires rear main cap removal) and possibly also change over to a spin on filter at the same time. If you decide to change oil pumps while you’re in there I would recommend avoiding the HV Hot Hemi heads unit which I have been hearing has had some major problems with the shafts breaking (they basically use a HV 340 oil pump with a custom shaft). If you can find a stock 392 oil pump it will flow within 3% of the HV 340 unit, but may require a custom pickup depending on the pan you’re using. On a final note on the Oil system, most of the old timers recommend using a fairly heavy oil (20-50) due to the clearances of these older engines. If you go with the heavier oil, plan on giving it a little warm up time when starting the engine cold.

As far as power, the big thing that really hurts the early HEMI is the lack of compression, but comparing the power output of even a stock 354 to “a good running 283” is a little on the light side.......it’s a bit closer to a good running low compression 350, but with a weight penalty. Couple that with a set of 4.10s and a OD 4 speed and even in stock form it will still be a fun ride.

Here are the links to the HEMI threads I did several years ago you might find of use.

http://www.clubhotrod.com/mopar-426-...-part-1-a.html

http://www.clubhotrod.com/mopar-426-...-part-2-a.html
http://www.clubhotrod.com/mopar-426-...-part-3-a.html

http://www.clubhotrod.com/mopar-426-...-part-4-a.html

http://www.clubhotrod.com/mopar-426-...-part-5-a.html

Thanks for the links! I read through them all and some things are more clear. Now that you've showed me ways to save money I may just rebuild the engine now and not wait.I think I'll take the pan off and the valve covers and see what it really looks like inside first.

One other thing, on the engine adapter you have in the 3rd thread, basically whack off the bottom pieces and the starter will bolt to the 4 speed bell housing. Right? Any good sources for the bell housing? Thanks again for the help.

also---i don't believe that the hemi is 200 lbs heavier than a sbc

SBC 460/575# depending on year and heads (More than I thought) Hemi 729/745 A lot more than I thought BBC 675# Olds diesel 590#

I don't think the early hemi weights that much

675# 50s Desoto hemi

I just weighed bbc iron head at 63 lbs and 392 head at 69 lbs---I'm pretty sure hemi 392 block is lighter than the bbc altho I can't find my notes on block weights--crankshafts pretty much with 2 or 3 lbs and if your talking 454 bbc the dampner/flywheel are much heavier---rods will be within a few ozs, hemi pistons are a little beefy because of the top for the hemi head but the bbc is heavier by a few grams as it has a big dome also. You can put aluminum manifolds on any of them , dist and oil pumps will pretty much be a trade off and the hemi rocker shaft assy will be heavier than the individual stamped rockers ----

Either choice and you'll be hard pressed to buy stock in goodyear. The diesel choice i like since your putting it head to head with a Hemi. either one would be cool, one of the buds is making a decision much like your own right now between a Cat or Detriot or small block hemi. I told him the same thing most said already. built it however is going to make you smile driving it. if you have that much experience with diesels, i kinda think from the way you talk about em, you kinda already made your mind up? especially since your selling point on the Hemi was that you'd thought that you'd supercharge it, i doubt id even need to say what the options are on a diesel if your already building em for the track....

"...... basically whack off the bottom pieces and the starter will bolt to the 4 speed bell housing. Right? Any good sources for the bell housing? . ......"

That's pretty much it. As far as bellhousings, if you're junk yard hunting for an a833, try to snag the bellhousing. I picked up my last one from a friend who runs a tranny shop, and E Bays always a good source. From my experience the absolute best bet is if you know some MOPAR guys....they (we) tend to be horders and usually have a stash of parts or know someone who does. :LOL:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jerry clayton

I just weighed bbc iron head at 63 lbs and 392 head at 69 lbs---I'm pretty sure hemi 392 block is lighter than the bbc altho I can't find my notes on block weights--crankshafts pretty much with 2 or 3 lbs and if your talking 454 bbc the dampner/flywheel are much heavier---rods will be within a few ozs, hemi pistons are a little beefy because of the top for the hemi head but the bbc is heavier by a few grams as it has a big dome also. You can put aluminum manifolds on any of them , dist and oil pumps will pretty much be a trade off and the hemi rocker shaft assy will be heavier than the individual stamped rockers ----

---

I weighed my 354 and with out alternator, a/c comp, or ps pump, my scale said it was 745lbs. A 24v cummins I just built with ps pump/vac pump, turbo and exhaust manifold was 1080. I'm sure a lot of the weight on the hemi has to do with all the cast on the front of it. The water pump and cross over have got to be about 60lbs by them selves. LOL

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by OSK

Either choice and you'll be hard pressed to buy stock in goodyear. The diesel choice i like since your putting it head to head with a Hemi. either one would be cool, one of the buds is making a decision much like your own right now between a Cat or Detriot or small block hemi. I told him the same thing most said already. built it however is going to make you smile driving it. if you have that much experience with diesels, i kinda think from the way you talk about em, you kinda already made your mind up? especially since your selling point on the Hemi was that you'd thought that you'd supercharge it, i doubt id even need to say what the options are on a diesel if your already building em for the track....

---

No, I haven't made my mind up yet. Once I put pen to paper and do some more research and try to locate some parts to do the hemi swap, we'll see what happens.

The Intake manifold on the HEMI is a good place to shave weight too. The stock 4 BBL intake you have weighs in between 60 and 70 pounds and probably another 10 pounds on the cast iron WCFB.

And you can use an Chevy bb alum waterpump-----


Or sell me the hemi and you can keep the extra heavy stuff for the scrap guy!!!!!!!

You guys stay up all night??

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jerry clayton

And you can use an Chevy bb alum waterpump-----


Or sell me the hemi and you can keep the extra heavy stuff for the scrap guy!!!!!!!

You guys stay up all night??

---

LOL No, I just got back late last night from delivering a NV5600 to a guy. Speaking of heavy, those dang things are heavy! LOL

“....You guys stay up all night??....”

Naw, but I only sleep about 6 hours a night anymore. In the summer time It’s not unusual to be in the shop at 4 or 4:30.....winter time I sit in the recliner and play on the computer till it warms up a little.

Any leads for an A833 OD trans? I keep finding non od ones, but no od ones. Any help would be great, including bell housing.

The hemi may end up sitting on the stand for a while. The parts list to get it to come together is still up there. We'll see what happens.