Help! 350 small block got hot and turned off now wont start!

I recently purchased a 1985 cutlass supreme wit a 350 small block. Dont really know too much about the engine except it being out of a 1972 corvette and Holly 4barrel carb, weiand intake manifold. I forgot to turn fans on omw home and pulling in the driveway i noticed the temp was up and car shut off at that same moment. I turned fans on so it can cool off a bit. left about hr and a half be for i tried to start it but no luck. The engine turns and oil is clean(Changed oil 3 days before). Sparkplugs are dry.(changed them while i checked them so they are new now.)Radiator full and engine blew no smoke. Also noticed my rpm gauge doesnt move when i try to start which it ussually does when i start it up. Engine was in pretty bad shape when i bought car a few weeks ago from sitting for over 3 years.

Rpm not working may be a clue. Possibly the ignition module died?
Check for spark.

Thinking the same, my tachometer is connected to the coil so it sounds like something in the coil/distributer/spark wires or ignition circuit. I would do the old take one spark plug wire off, and test to see if your getting spark. If not it narrows the problem considerably!
This auto meter schematic shows how tthe tachometer is connected the ignition circuit.
https://www.autometer.com/media/manual/2650-1244.pdf


I'm guessing if the engine turns over the ignition switch is o.k., maybe the other guys on here can be more specific. If you engine uses a points and condensor, then your problem could be there, or with one of the wires routed thru there. I nice multimeter can help check old wires for conductivity. On my 71 ford it did the same thing, no spark, I replaced everything, only to find it was the wire from the distributor from the coil. Matter of fact trying to figure this out was the first post I came to this site for, and Techinspector figured out my problem!

To test for spark the old fashion way, remove one wire from a spark plug, stuff a screw driver into the wire boot where the spark plug metal top fits into, lay the screw driver attached to the wire across a metal surface(on engine) that the spark can arc across(don't touch while testing and don't put near a flammable source(i.e. leaking carb on manifold). the engine is negative ground, if the spark plug is getting + juice from the coil, then where ever the metal shaft of the screw driver is touching say a unpainted manifold bolt you should see a park. If you have spark, then things get more interesting, if you don't the problem lies somewhere in the ignition/spark circuit. Have someone crank it over while you look for a spark. Others might have a safer way to do this, or different, this is just the "use what you got" method that we did in High school autoshop in the 70's.

The schematic I posted shows the tach wire going to the negative side of the coil, so like Firebird said above check the coil wires first!

Thanks to all. Will check soon as im home.

How hot did it get, i.e. were you driving at speed and pulled into the house, or were you in traffic, stop & go and for about how far? I assume it's an iron head engine if it's '72, and also that it's a point style distrubutor and not High Energy Ignition?

Point Style (coil mounted separate) -
http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/MTIwMFgxNj...ToQ~~60_35.JPG

HEI Style (coil on top of the cap) -
http://truck.hownd.com/images/thumb-...istributor.jpg

If nothing obvious shows up, take a digital photo of the engine showing coil and distributer, post it here if you can. This will narrow down what parts are on there.

Lift the distributor cap off,
Have someone turn the key (crank)

and see if the rotor spins. Also, see if there is oil pressure while cranking ( if gauge is available.)

Just trip to store nearby maybe 4 miles round trip. No traffic but made a few little trips before with no issues. Engine only got hot cause i didnt turn on fans since im still not used to the switch. Pulled into driveway and revd engine twice and it shut off. Then i noticed the water in resivour tank was boiling. Engine blew no smoke, oil is clean, no water or oil on sparkplugs, engine turns but to start.checked rotor in distributor cap and its spinning. Checked for sparks with flathead and touching many different parts of engine and i get no sparks at all. Gauges arent working right now. There all there but No voltage no oil pressure gauge no rpm gauge either.Pics are there. 2nd pic is when i bought the car 4 weeks ago and 3rd pic is now.

That might be a electronic ignition Distributor. Looks a lot like the one I'm using in my Ford,a mallory Unilite, that takes the points and coil out of the conversation I don't see a coil in the photos, and mine definately needs that, so maybe some others on here are seeing something I'm not, although there may be a red box behind the distributor on the right, just barely in view on the above photo. I'd trace the wires from the ignition switch to the distributor, I'm guessing they problem might be somewhere there. Hopefully one of the chevy guys will have a better idea.

No gauges puts a new spin on it. Check fuses.

Last time I had an issue with an HEI no spark, it was the coil in the cap gone dead. Usual trouble is the module; always keep one in the glove box.

I'll bet if you look for voltage into the dizzy, you'll find none.

Good luck!

Coil i believe is right under the top plate inbetween the spark plug wires which on the right side of the distributor it does have a little box with wires goin into it. Gauges arent working cause im pretty sure i killed my battery trying to get car started but rpm gauge gave out while others where working just fine.already checked all fuses and there good. Gotta charge it up today when i get home from work. I just hope it something simple. Thanks to all of you for the help.

So should i try changing module or coil or both?

Ok so i charged my battery and checked for spark again and it has spark. Gauges back online. Oil pressure of 20 while trying to start car, 12 volts fully carged battery. When i turn my key the rpm gauge does a slight movement but stays on zero and still Wont move at all while i try n get it started.

I had a tach go bad and would not let the car start. Disconnect the tach wire out of the dizzy and see if that helps

Spark is good!

Crank for five seconds. Then hop out and break loose the fuel line. ( at carb ) You should get a little burst of fuel, not much, just a squirt. It will verify fuel to carb.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by firebird77clone

Spark is good!

Crank for five seconds. Then hop out and break loose the fuel line. ( at carb ) You should get a little burst of fuel, not much, just a squirt. It will verify fuel to carb.

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Or simply remove the air cleaner, look down the carb throat and cycle the throttle linkage by hand full stroke. You should see a strong shot of raw gas from the accelerator pump nozzles, which tells you that the float bowl is charged with fuel.

Let us know if the gas is getting into engine, maybe shoot a shot of starter fluid in there when cranking it over and see if she kicks to life, if so, it's a fuel issue(bad gas, water in gas, clogged fuel filter, plugged jets in carb, or empty tank?)

Has almost full tank of gas and gas is getting to engine. I've already tried starter fluid but still no luck :( . gonna disconnect tach to see if that helps. So frustrated. Was hoping this car lasted me till I had enough money to throw 2k on engine but doesn't look like that's happening. I really appreciate all the help you guys are giving

When you say that you have spark, is it a strong, blue/white spark that "pops" from positive to ground, or a weak yellow/orange spark? It's possible that your temperature excursion has nothing to do with this problem, but then again it could be that something cooked. How do you explain that your battery was dead? Have you checked your alternator for charging capacity? It could be as simple as you need a new battery. Just sayin' check the obvious stuff and eliminate them before jumping to more complex issues.
You need fuel, air and spark to run. If you tried ether (starting fluid) and it didn't fire then your spark is in question. I'd probably change the coil to eliminate it from the list of potential problems.

Weak white blue spark. Battery is 3 months old and alternator is 3 weeks old and its 105amps. Both are good. If you continuously try to start your car and it doest and you continue to try eventually it will run low since car didnt start for alternator to recharge it.fuses are also good. Will order a mallory e coil and ignition control module sometime next week. If nothing ima just wait till i can put car in shop

The "fuel/air/spark" requirement assumes good compression. A cheap, informative test is the check your compression on all cylinders, keeping track by cylinder number. You could be dealing with bad rings/low compression and not know it.

Also, I'd seriously consider that a temperature switch/controller for those fans as being a mandatory upgrade. Having cooling fans on a switch is a disaster waiting for an opportunity.

Pull the plugs one-by-one and see what they have to say.

Check the timing, kinda sounds like the timing chain has gone out.

Just to be sure we're all on the same page, you've said that you drove to the store, and on the way home you forgot to turn on the fans. As you pulled into the driveway, you noticed that the temperature gauge was high, and at the same time the engine died, with no action from you. The car was running fine on the way home, but died in the driveway. Is that right?

Spark plug are new and high performance. Tested for spark with new and old plugs and the spark stays the same. Still gotta change the wires though. Gonna check timing belt first then see about compression tests. Was gonna check timing belt this weekend.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by highdro

Spark plug are new and high performance. Tested for spark with new and old plugs and the spark stays the same. Still gotta change the wires though. Gonna check timing belt first then see about compression tests. Was gonna check timing belt this weekend.

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Lots of bad plugs out there these days, with old lines sourcing through China. No belt on a 350. Timing chain, and unless it's a super high mileage engine jumping a tooth is not likely.

Yea i know its a timing chain. Lol Just been thru a long day @ work and now more work here on the car and today is day 5 like this. Work come home and more work. i grabbed same model and brand plugs that where already in it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rspears

Just to be sure we're all on the same page, you've said that you drove to the store, and on the way home you forgot to turn on the fans. As you pulled into the driveway, you noticed that the temperature gauge was high, and at the same time the engine died, with no action from you. The car was running fine on the way home, but died in the driveway. Is that right?

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Yup. Except i revd it twice but died on 2nd rev. Ran great on way home.

Just a thought, back in the late 60's thru 70's GM was using a nylon encased timing chain sprocket on the cam to quite the noise. They seldom lasted past 60,000 miles, when they went out it was usually as the motor rpm came down (most of the time at shut off). We used to check for wear with a timing light, if the timing wasn't steady (jumped around) at a set rpm, it usually indicated the timing gear had excessive wear. Once they jumped they would not start, we used to hold a dollar bill above the carburetor while someone cranked it, if the bill blew up away from the carb it was the timing chain.
Saw a lot of these fail, and we got real good at changing timing chain sets..

You can get a good idea if that timing chain has issues by rocking the engine back and forth while watching the rotor button. Easier by far with plugs removed.

If you can rock the engine back and forth and the rotor doesn't move, It's got a lot of slack.

Will check tomarrow. Rpm gauge isnt registering at all. Even disconnected it but still no start. This sucks

I typed out a pretty well complete system to follow along with numerous issues I saw in his pics but the site mal functioned as I clicked reply---------
In a more abbreviated form------move the fuel line out of between the water pump and front of block, while hoses are disconnected, pump fuel into a 2 liter pop bottle to check for debries in fuel, amount of fuel ( if any) and also this (fuel pump action) will tell you if timing chain is still working(altho it may have jumped some teeth)---fix the ground wires and battery cables, take Teflon tape off carb fittings (never use Teflon tape on fuel or brake systems) Sepentine belt drive systems commonly use reverse flow water pumps, your system however needs normal rotation----
Before buying a bunch of parts-remove plugs, dist cap, compression check, while plugs are out hook up remote starter switch to solenoid, jump hot wire to dist, check for spark (plugs hooked to wires laying on metal surface) do the fuel line stuff I mentioned, turn crank with socket til #1 is coming up on compression stroke, check timing mark as piston comes to top dead center, check rotation of distributor rotor (all this will also tell status of timing chain)If good clean fuel, compression and spark while directly hotwired, you may just have issue with ignition switch in any of the 3 positions-accessory (powers fans) ign on ( distributor power) start ( accessory/ignition bypass-dist powered from starter solenoid

Will try all this. Pretty sure fuel is clean cause i have a sight type fuel filter before fuel goes into carb and fuel in there is real clean but will check timing chain first thing tomarrow morning and compression.

Hang in there and follow the above advice. It will help us narrow down the possibilities. These types of problems can and will drive you crazy, but they are almost always simple in the end.

OK so I took off cap and tried to start car rotor moves. I also put a socket on crank and with every little movement the rotor moves. I tried again to get spark for the 3rd time on the plugs with 3 different wires and again no sparks at all where the 1st test for spark also gave me no spark but the 2nd test gave me very little spark. I mean it was so weak it was barely even visible. I pulled off the coil in the cap and it does have rust stains on it in certain areas. Still no luck with the rpm gauge working. Stays on zero when trying to start the car. All other gauges are working properly. Checked fuel and its clean and it gets to the engine. . Won't really be able to replace the coil and module till at least a week n a half from now cause bills always do come first and Mallory parts aren't exactly cheap but first chance I get I'm changing them

Why are you so bent on throwing parts at it instead of qualifying exactly what you have and don't have???? You need to do some isolation of the ignition system from all the dash and tach stuff----------Hotwire jumper wire direct to ignition
Remote starter switch to turn engine
does fuel actually spray from accelerator pump nozzles
have you checked float levels
are you getting compression (check with finger in plug hole while you turn crank to # 1 cylinder and does the compression change to suction as the timing mark goes past tdc?
turn engine until rotor is pointed exactly at a cap terminal and hook a wire to that cap terminal and hold on to the end of wire while turning the ignition on and off several times----will be very slight tingle so don't worry-best to touch finger of that hand to intake manifold and only get tingle thru finger---

I wanted to add, with the plugs out - spin the motor by hand until the timing mark is at zero on the timing tab, now, slowly turn the motor in the OPPOSITE DIRECTION and make note of how many degrees you can turn the crank BEFORE the rotor turns.

6 to 8 degrees acceptable play in the timing chain, 10, 12 or more is un-acceptable. This information along with a compression test will give a good indication of the motors health inside.