H/C/I/carb on 4 bolt 350

Hi guys! New to the forums, not new to Chevys but new to the sbc. I had an LS1 Camaro and then an LS2 GTO before I went to the dark side and had a couple fox bodies. Now I'm back on the bow tie scene with an 87 MC SS. It has a factory rebuilt 4 bolt 350 in it, converted to carb, pretty healthy, but bone stock. It's mated to a rebuilt 700R4 (yes I have paperwork for both) I'm looking to make a few more ponies without adding a blower or nitrous. 400 would be nice, but maybe that's aiming a little high. This car will be a street/strip car with the emphasis on street. I'm not worried about gas mileage or passing smog, just want something that idles nicely, sounds mean and goes like hell through the entire powerband (or at least most of it)
Now, like I said I'm not too familiar with these engines, so at the moment I'm debating between doing a new high comp rebuild, or throwing a small blower on it, or just doing heads, cams, intake & carb, but leaning more toward the latter option unless you guys suggest something else. If I just do H/C/I & carb my budget is about 3k, but I suppose I can stretch it out if necessary. Obviously the budget gets bigger if I do one of the first two options, but that's a big reason I'm leaning toward the last option; don't really intend to go broke on this thing.
So my question; what is the best street/strip H/C/I/carb combo I can put together on this thing so I no longer feel like I'm riding around in granny's chevy?

Welcome to CHR!

We have a couple Monte Carlo fans here including our favorite hot rod lady Barb aka “Junkyardgirl”. Lots of good folks here and we hope you have a long and happy stay with us!

The 1987 Monte Carlo came with an LM1 350. It was the base 5.7 L (350 cu in) with a 4-barrel carburetor (usually with a QuadraJet) used in all Chevy passenger cars until 1988. It was rated at a whopping 180 horsepower and all (in the Monte Carlo) were mated to 4 speed automatic transmissions. Weigh in stock form is about 3400 pounds.

It’s easy to get 400 horsepower out of a 350 in your $3K budget with any number of head/cam/intake/carb combinations; however, the limiting factor in your current drive train will be the stock 700R4 as it is good for about 350 lb/ft. If you put 400 plus in front of a stock transmission and habitually shift at WOT it will fail. The good news is that a mild build on the 700R4 will allow it to handle 450 lb/ft and 450 plus horsepower – see Bowtie Overdrives - View Item. While I know you have a new rebuild transmission, unless it was built by a reputable high performance shop you may be better off to eBay it and recover a few dollars toward a quality HP unit and a good 24-2600RPM converter.

The engine can easily produce 400 plus. A set of AFR Street 180 Cylinder Heads should give you about 9.5:1 on an LM1 base engine with the stock .051 thick gasket (assuming stock deck height of 9.025 – if it’s been squared you’ll need to do some math). A hydraulic cam in the 224/224 @ .050 lift range with .470/.470 lift would work well with these heads. Assumption is that your 1987 is a roller block (transition year - most are, some are not) – if not I’d recommend a roller cam and a 1987 block should already be ready for it. I’m a bit leery of flat tappet cams unless the installation and break-in is done exactly by-the-book.

Top the engine with an Edelbrock 7101 Performer RPM and a 750 cfm Holley with vacuum secondaries and a good set of 1-5/8” headers and you should see 400 horsepower. Assumption is that you have a stock HEI distributor – if not get one. Start with 8-10 degrees at initial and 34 degrees all in.

Have fun and let us know what you decide to do.

Again, Welcome to CHR!
Glenn

Awesome, thank you Glenn!
By the way I should specify, though I assume you guys have probably made the connection; I'm looking for 400 at the crank, which I believe would put me around 330 at the wheels (correct me if I'm wrong) while keeping it as streetable as possible. Nothing too anemic at lower RPMs. 350 rwhp is the real goal, but 330 should suffice, if it means a noticeable increase in driveability.
Basically I want to be able to hang with the H/C/I fox bodies around town.
On the 5.0 efi's pistons had to be notched to fit AFR heads. I'm guessing that's not the case for the sbc?
Also I was taught that Chevys typically like edelbrock carbs, whereas fords like holleys. Now that could very well be a bit of misinformation so if so then feel free to set me straight.
Also, that CR seems a little low. Would I be benefitted much by swapping in some higher comp pistons?

As for the tranny, it was a rebuild to oem spec so it will not handle the torque I'm hoping to make. Anyway, no problem I have great tranny builder (built my T56 to handle 500 and I attempted to break it for 40k miles plus with no luck) so I will get a quote from him on a performance rebuild, and if it's not worth it I'll go the route of a new built tranny and sell my stocker on eBay as suggested. Stall converter is a good idea, I will add that to the shopping list.
Also, any other must do mods I should consider?

Thanks again for the feedback!

Welcome. I like Glenns’ recommendations but there are a couple things I’d like to add.

Since you have the paper work on the 350 (instead of the factory installed 305) and you’re not worried about smog I would also look at the exhaust. If it hasn’t already been done, I would add a double hump crossmember and a true dual exhaust with long tube headers (not shorties). Personally I like the “pypes” X pipe, not so much for any added HP but because of the way it nicely tucks the mufflers under the body.

If you can afford the down time with the car, I think I would hold off buying heads until you pull the ones that are on there and can get the measurements needed to check the compression ratio (how far down in the cylinder the piston is……make sure you take measurements from both sides…, dome volume etc). From there you can make the determination on the chamber volume you need to come up with decent compression.

Downstream from the engine and transmission I would also look at the rear end. The Monte Carlos including the SSs only came with the 7.5 10 bolt. The better 8.5 were only on the T Type G Bodies, the GNX and the Olds H/O and 442 G Bodies. The 7.5 10 bolts are tougher than a lot of people give them credit for, but they still will only handle a certain level of abuse. Here is some reading on the rear end options you might find interesting.

Rearend Swap Tech

Anyway, there’s my 2 cents and again welcome.


,

Not a problem, I actually pulled my strange 9 inch rear end from my last fox body and swapped the factory 8.8 in before I sold it. It's been sitting in my garage waiting to be sold, but how hard would that be to swap in?

It may be pretty simple if the 9" is set up to be a direct replacement for the 8.8. The 8.8 are becoming a pretty popular swap and as I recall all that is required is to relocate the spring cups from the G body axle you're taking out and weld them to you're 9" and pick up a couple of conversion upper control arms from E Bay or another supplier.

Do a search on Google or check out gbodyforum.com for specifics.


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Moser and a couple other companies make a bolt in 9" housing for the G bodies.

Great! I have done some research on swapping my. 9" rear end in, and have ordered a Moser housing, so I should be able to get to work on that this weekend. Talked to my tranny guy, and looks like it will be more efficient to sell my tranny and order one of those bowtie level 2s.
Now here's what I'm thinking at the moment; I've seen both the AFR 180s and Patriot 185s (which If I'm not mistaken are just aluminum vortec castings) side by side and I can tell the difference in workmanship (the AFR ports are silky smooth, and the patriots pretty much look like vortecs) but I could save about $700 going with the Patriots. I will probably get a comp cams 12-211-2, edelbrock 7101 and a Holley 750, so as far as power, how big of a sacrifice really am I making if I opt for the patriots over the AFRs? If there's a better budget option please let me know, and if the AFRs are the end-all-be-all or are just in a conpletely different league than any other head option, I will spring for them.

And will I run into any problems getting the heads milled for slightly higher compression?

What are you looking for in terms of compression? I'd have to have a real specific reason for milling a new head - used ones sometimes need a touch to square the surface. For street cars with iron heads, try and stay below 10:1.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by glennsexton

For street cars with iron heads, try and stay below 10:1.

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For iron heads I'd stay below 9:1 with todays ethanol blends, and not more than 10.5:1 with aluminum and you'll still probably be chasing premium fuel. What fuel are you wanting to run?

Actually ethanol has a higher octane rating - like 113 to 115 so it will support higher compression. My wife's daily driver is a Mustang GT 5.0 and it has 11:1 compression ratio and runs fine on the 10-15% ethanol we have in Oregon all year around. Granted it's aluminum, but i wouldn't worry about ethanol as a deal breaker in building a 9.5:1 versus a 10:1 iron headed engine.

10:1 cr would be great. I plan to run 91, though it's CA, so I know our 91 is not the greatest. 9.5:1 will suffice if it's better to leave well enough alone. I plan on buying my heads brand new. The Patriot 185s are looking really nice, having read this article Eight Budget Small Block Chevy Heads Tested - Car Craft Magazine All Pages

but I will pony up for the AFRs if they're a much better option. Is 450 at the crank a lofty goal? At the end of the day I'm more concerned with having a nice powerband than big numbers up top, but I'm thinking the cam should take care of that. I'm looking at a comp cams 12-211-2 but am open to suggestion.

Glenn, you really don’t get into the high octane rating (113 to 115) unless you’re talking about E85 and to really see much benefit from the E85 you need to start looking at CRs starting around 12:1. E10 premium still only ranges between 91- 94 octane depending on where you are.

Aluminum heads of better design, camshaft profiles and (probably most importantly) fuel injection and timing that are computer controlled allow the newer engines to run higher compression like we used to back in the “good old days”.

If MrGody lived at a higher altitude (say around 4500 ft) and the car was never going to leave that general area I might be tempted to go a ½ to ¾ point higher on the CR, but LA is about as close to sea level as you can get. On a carbureted engine with iron heads I tend to agree with Roger about a true 9:1 being about the maximum compression you’d want to run on pump gas.


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Quote:

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Originally Posted by rspears

For iron heads I'd stay below 9:1 with todays ethanol blends, and not more than 10.5:1 with aluminum and you'll still probably be chasing premium fuel. What fuel are you wanting to run?

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Glenn, What I intended to type was "....not more than 9:1..." for iron heads, not "...below 9:1..." My apology.

Mike, thanks for your input and insight.

In California don't forget that the parts have to meet the air board----you might even have to go out of state to buy stuff!
Its really sad that in the neighboring states that border Calif that you have to show an ID to but parts just in case you might be from Ca---------

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mike P

Glenn, you really don’t get into the high octane rating (113 to 115) unless you’re talking about E85 and to really see much benefit from the E85 you need to start looking at CRs starting around 12:1. E10 premium still only ranges between 91- 94 octane depending on where you are.

Aluminum heads of better design, camshaft profiles and (probably most importantly) fuel injection and timing that are computer controlled allow the newer engines to run higher compression like we used to back in the “good old days”.

If MrGody lived at a higher altitude (say around 4500 ft) and the car was never going to leave that general area I might be tempted to go a ½ to ¾ point higher on the CR, but LA is about as close to sea level as you can get. On a carbureted engine with iron heads I tend to agree with Roger about a true 9:1 being about the maximum compression you’d want to run on pump gas.


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One of the things I appreciate about CHR is always learning new things! Thanks, Mike!

Great, I will be buying the heads new, so I will avoid milling andCR won't be an issue.
Anyone have any feedback on the Patriot 185s? They looked really good in a car craft article I read.
Also any feedback on the comp 12-211-2 cam?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MrGbody

Great, I will be buying the heads new, so I will avoid milling andCR won't be an issue.
Anyone have any feedback on the Patriot 185s? They looked really good in a car craft article I read.
Also any feedback on the comp 12-211-2 cam?

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last i knew patriot stop making heads thats been over a year my one warehouse i buy from stop selling them for over a year they are a over seas casting that was machined in the usa , this may or may not .make any difference in your purchase

did you miss my post about the CALIFORNIA concerns???????????seems strange no comments

Yeah thanks Jerry, I appreciate the concern. My sister lives in AZ, I get the parts that it can't get shipped out here, shipped to her, then she ships them to me. We've got a system.

thanks for the reply---most hot rodders around the country don't relize that those conditions exist--------you can have pot but not parts--------( I think even charcoal lighter fluid is illegal isn't it???That might have been in Colorado)

That is nuts. California and it's laws are penalizing the rest of the country. At work, we didn't get any new fleet trucks for 2 calendar years after the drop dead date of our fleet due to Ca changing their emissions laws a few years ago. All the new trucks went to Ca and the old ones were removed if over 1998, and transfered through out the country. Anything older than 98 was retired and crushed. Our trucks were 3-5 years over their projected life span. And the company wonders why maintenance costs are higher than projected? :LOL: Sorry for the hi-jack.

California laws are ridiculous. You know what they say; all the fruits & nuts roll west... And join congress.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MrGbody

Great, I will be buying the heads new, so I will avoid milling andCR won't be an issue.
Anyone have any feedback on the Patriot 185s? They looked really good in a car craft article I read.

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Jegs still has them listed on their site - $735 w/free shipping

ProMaxx Performance 2151 Patriot Performance GM Vortec 185cc Cylinder Heads - Free Shipping on All Orders @ JEGS

They also have the GM Vortecs for $620 a pair w/free shipping..

Chevrolet Performance 12558060 Chevrolet Performance Small Block Chevy Cast Iron Vortec Cylinder Heads - Free Shipping on All Orders @ JEGS

Real close, but the Patriot have longer intake runner (185 versus 170) and larger 2.02/1.6 valves versus the GM heads at 1.94/1.5

Good price on either set especially with free shipping.

These are #s I found on the car craft article. Wish they had numbers for the AFRs. I would fork over the extra cash if i could find out if it's really worth a good gain.

Vortec Iron, Scoggin-Dickey Modified PN SD8060A2, $779.90
Peak HP 378 at 5,300
Peak TQ 408 at 4,300
Valve Sizes 1.94/1.50
Intake Port 170
Chamber 64
Valvesprings 1.250-inch single spring w/ damper

Patriot 185cc PN 2168, $815.00
Peak HP 420 at 5,900
Peak TQ 417 at 4,300
Valve Sizes 2.02/1.60
Intake Port 185cc
Chamber 64cc
Valvesprings 1.430-inch-diameter single

Also what gears & stall should I be considering?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by glennsexton

Jegs still has them listed on their site - $735 w/free shipping

ProMaxx Performance 2151 Patriot Performance GM Vortec 185cc Cylinder Heads - Free Shipping on All Orders @ JEGS

They also have the GM Vortecs for $620 a pair w/free shipping..

Chevrolet Performance 12558060 Chevrolet Performance Small Block Chevy Cast Iron Vortec Cylinder Heads - Free Shipping on All Orders @ JEGS

Real close, but the Patriot have longer intake runner (185 versus 170) and larger 2.02/1.6 valves versus the GM heads at 1.94/1.5

Good price on either set especially with free shipping.

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well i see they are making heads again so i what i said was wrong .i knew they were down my warehouse still is no longer selling them ???? so who knows about them???the ower use to post on the yellow buliet . so maybe it.s a new owner ???? i would spend abit more money and look at the afr or the E tec head from eldebrock

Ok I will spend a little more and go with the AFRs. Now I've found a good deal on some 195s. They're sitting at my buddy's shop. He had a customer building a strip car and he ordered them, then decided to go bigger so never had them installed, and they've just been sitting in the box for a month or so; I can get them for $1200. Could I get away with those, and go a little bigger on the cam, rear gears & stall, meanwhile keeping my car streetable, or are the 180s the only way to go for me?
I'm willing to live with a lumpy idle. I DDd my 5.0 with 4.10s and an XE274HR for over a year and thought that was a great combo. I just don't want my car to die on me sitting in traffic with the AC & headlights on, and obviously want to retain some street manners, so no really extreme stall converter or anything.

for years i ran stuff with big CID engines and some CR . just about any thing will run on the street i have engines making 1200hp with tame cams with head that have big cc 355to420.you really do not need a big cam just because you have a port runner 10cc bigger i do not always build them that way big port = must have a big cam i would still work with the real power band as how your going to drive it and not worry much about the head if low lift numbers are good. i have a 470cc runner heads at low lift flow numbers as good a smaller heads and were the small heads stop the bigger heads are still putting big numbers down

Thanks for the feedback Pat, I'm not very well educated in this area though; are you telling me I could achieve better numbers with the 195s and the same cam despite the lower CR?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MrGbody

Thanks for the feedback Pat, I'm not very well educated in this area though; are you telling me I could achieve better numbers with the 195s and the same cam despite the lower CR?

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if every thing would be the same but port size and if your going lower cr then i would be working on the LSA of cam and the cam events and would stay under 550 lift with a flat lifter cam i would start working around a cam of the numbers of about 512 .512 lift with 1.5 rockers a lsa 112 intake center of 108 dur @225/225 off the top of my head and master lobes this sizes i know are not odd to come up with if a custom grind is going to be made .like said about my posted numbers this about were i would start as this cam has a wide power band. it takes me more then a hour or to run threw my soft ware and years of building engines many cams before i am happy i do not pick the cam that sounds nasty but a cam that works. try to get 9to5 would stay under 10.5.1 even with aluminum heads a 185 to 195 cc head if flows good at lower lift .i do not think a 195 is to big of port runner like i said i would work with rpm your going to see and trade off your willing to do if list is short i would have a cam made with my numbers and bouce the off the guy that grinds my cams if needed but there many sbc out there that would fit the bill your asking something thats not so cut and dry the same head 195 with a smaller cam ok less cr .ok but you would need to have a smaller head flow what and valve size ?this would hard to do if the heads need to dyno heads DART as done this if you go on the webpage a smaller cam then what cam hyd solid flat lifter or hyd roller how small .do i think if you have a 350or355 and i build a 383 with lets say one point less cr and a smaller cam or a cam i come up with? i done it most all the time bigger engine will win 1/2 point of cr is less hp then you think

Oh ok I am understanding a little better. I built Hondas before i had my Camaro and mustangs so I come from the import world where compression is everything. I guess what I'm really asking at the end of the day is could the 195 heads benefit me in any way or would I be better off with the 180s if money wasn't an issue? If my application is better off with the 180s, I can pass up the 195s. It's no big deal.
If I can benefit from them, say I go with a cam that has similar specs to what you're suggesting, would I also want a bigger carb and maybe a different intake?
Thanks for being patient with me.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MrGbody

Oh ok I am understanding a little better. I built Hondas before i had my Camaro and mustangs so I come from the import world where compression is everything. I guess what I'm really asking at the end of the day is could the 195 heads benefit me in any way or would I be better off with the 180s if money wasn't an issue? If my application is better off with the 180s, I can pass up the 195s. It's no big deal.
If I can benefit from them, say I go with a cam that has similar specs to what you're suggesting, would I also want a bigger carb and maybe a different intake?
Thanks for being patient with me.

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again back to what parts ? intake what do you have ? and back to heads you can not realy just look at cc of port runner . not ever one s heads are going to flow the same and like i said dart dyno i think 3 heads if you want to just look at port cc and many do it a bad habit tell s you how many cc the port holds there a hell of alot more to it .you have go to dart web page like i said. i do not think the 198 are to big but then you need to tell me more then you told me ? what is the rpm band . what carb cfm you have one ?. what intake ? you have one ? what is the 180 flow numbers who makes the head. on paper the bigger head allways wins but if your under 3000 rpm.most of the time and moveing a 4000. pound car ? no CR is only about around 6 hp more going from 9to1 to 10to 1 now if you jump up to 15to1 when yes it helps if you have the fuel but then the 15 to1 engine as not the same deal

I have no parts, I'm just compiling a list of what I should get before I buy. So far it's a bone stock 350. This will be a street car that sees the strip maybe 5 times a year. I'm just looking to eke out as much power as I can meanwhile retaining a decent powerband and keeping it streetable. Powerband I really don't know. I would say 2k-6k rpm. And yes a 4000 lb car. Why I'm thinking maybe it will be better to just go with the 180s to retain the low end torque.

Thanks guys for the help! I am going with Glenn's original recommendations and will post when I have it all set up. Got started on swapping in the 9 inch today, should be done by Sunday (so far have only gotten the original 10 bolt pulled).