The shorty block huggers will give high rpm gains. Be sure to include them when you talk to the techs.
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The shorty block huggers will give high rpm gains. Be sure to include them when you talk to the techs.
I ran that engine casting numbers.There is a shot it could be a 1968 327.Now that cast iron 4 barrel intake is from a 350,but anyone over the yrs could have added that on.So if you post the stamped number from the front of the engine we could tack down a date of build and narrow it down.Really should have suggested that from the get go,but I let it slip by me.
The 12-600-4 cam notes does say ok for a stock t/c but likes a 2,000 stall better and gears.It does say gives the old school rough idle and makes me think of one of those poser cams Dave posted about.The 12-600-8 is what we talked about going over a 500 lift and it then costing you more.Tell you what.I'm not really not trying to shoot down your suggestions,but playing back to you what you found out so far for you to think over.
Well post those stamped numbers and we can go on from there.
I actually did a very quick search on those cam numbers and found that 12-600-8 for about $900 dollars on a different site. I'm going to send Pat an email tonight and see what he can fill me in on. As for those block numbers, we tried like hell to clean up the flat spot on the front passenger side of the block and this is what we were able to make of it. It was K08 07 TJB . There is like a seriel number before that and it looks like it starts with c411. I'll double check on that number in the next day or so and find the rest of it.
i have found that snapping a photo and then looking at it will many times bring out detail that is invisible with the naked eye.Quote:
Originally Posted by mikesaik
i have done it a bunch of times and numbers will pop out at you that you couldnt see at all before
I can try that. I'll see if i can post a picture in the next couple days.
TJB is a 73, 74, 75, and 79 350 cubic inch TRUCK motor with a single 4bbl and manual
trans. It is also the code for a 92 305 engine from a truck with TBI
Is there any other ways of knowing without tearing anything apart?
sbc retro roller kit .spring .seal. locks. retainers. cam. lifters. timming set. under $900. have to call but it was under $850 .then buy set of flat top cast piston $45. ring $20.bearing set $60. oil pump$20 gasket set $30 freeze plug kit $7.00 if bores are not bad then a hone and go with the flat tops . same with crank check size and polish and re bearing it . may need machine work no cheap way out. heads will need work block should be hot tanked and bored .if you do not want the roller cam then use a E903K ELGIN CAM KIT hyd flat lifter kit is the 350Hp chevy cam will run good and sound good
If you put that fosdick thumpr cam in the motor without raising the static compression ratio, you're gonna end up with a turd that won't pull the hat off your head. It'll lope, but that's all it'll do. With a static compression ratio of ~8:1 and a cam that closes the intake valve at 35.5 degrees ABDC @0.050" tappet lift, you will end up with a dynamic compression ratio of 7.05:1, leaving a full point and a half on the table.
Lope normally comes as a side effect after you choose the proper cam timing to work with the static compression ratio of the motor. You guys that want to start with lope, no matter how the cam affects the rest of the motor, deserve what you get. If I were doing it, I'd raise the SCR to mid 9's. Either that or install the proper cam for the SCR you have now. Maximum intake valve duration 195 degrees @0.050" tappet lift......NO LOPE......You don't have enough SCR to support lope and a stout motor at the same time, it's one or the other.
One of the ways to raise the compression would be different heads right?
Kind of gets back to what I was saying in the first place.You should face the fact how old of a engine your starting with<because it is a matter of fact>,it's current condition,the recommendations Pat has made combined with Tech's post.
To answer your question directly,yes a head swap can raise the compression ratio,but all for not if the rest is worn like a engine that old would likely be.
yes and thats is were the flat top cast pistons can come in to play with what . decking the block will help and many sbc have very bad deck s for finish older sbc not bad newer ones can be bad . that is why i really do not care to post any thing any more anywere. i do not build engine for sound or buy smaller CR chamber head just to put bigger cams in for more sound . for me it,s the parts all working together to give the best output at the RPM range were the engine will see use. now i must go warm up my shop to work on some engines built for power :)Quote:
Originally Posted by 1gary
C4110 C 285 - K08-07tjb this is what i found on the front of the block.
Gotcha. Perhaps this may be more than what i was planning to do. Taking everyones advice i've learned alot about cams and compression
I'd go so far as to say a 51 chev pickup with a 350 v=8 was rad rod enough----
I think thats the way its starting to look jerry
Mike if and I'm not speaking for anyone else,but if you came up with say $1,500,it might get you closer to what you want and would work ok.
Tell you what,talk to Pat further.Ask him if you went to a flat tappet hydro cam,would that amount of money allow you to freshen up the bottom end,cast flat top pistons,and get a better set of heads.
Thing is your grand is certainly good seed money and might put you on your way to a nice cruise engine.
Your grand will cover the machine work. Parts are additional.
Check main bearing bores for being round and parallel. Correct as necessary.
Mount block on the main saddles and cut the decks to the required block deck height for the stack of parts you will use, so that you can use the proper head gasket and arrive at the proper squish (0.035" to 0.045").
Bore and hone with torque plate to the proper diameter for the piston and piston type used, using the proper grit number for the style and material of piston rings to be used.
If planning flat tappet lifters, finalize lifter bore diameter at lifter diameter plus 0.0015" clearance so that lifter can spin properly in its bore.
If necessary, machine intake manifold surfaces to be parallel with cylinder head intake port side. If these ports cannot seal properly due to non-parallelism in the X and Y axes, the motor could have an internal vacuum leak that you will never find. With the intake valve open and the piston ascending in the bore, the piston can draw in oily vapors from the crankcase and cause the motor to be an oil burner and could also cause oil-fouled spark plugs.
most of the small bore head gasket have gone away so i do not go by piston bore size but fire ring size used on the job for size of deck plate . like BBC 396/402 4.090/4.125 bbc and sbc 3.875 283 . hard to find smaller head gasket end up using a bigger fire ring gasket so my BBC deck plates are 4.400 and then up to 4.600 then 4.625 bore so 4.635. the one for 1/2 deck studs for 4.600 bores so its 4.635 sbc 4.125 . sbf 4.165. far has lifter bores on a worn 100.000 mile engine yes they should be checked . but not from to small for bore.i never seen it. but seen them worn out . GM and others did use over size lifters .hard to find . one has never cross my path but there out there. many time its a burr in the lifter bore. not from a small bore .a simple check and a BRM hone will fix this. i do the lifter bore in honing machine after honing the bores. has for new block with race roller lifters bores are fitted for the lifter this is done with my sunnen p190 and a mandrel with diamond adrasive all work getting varified by using sunnen /mitutoyo /sharrett .fowler .kine.ABS .goodson .magnaflux others and tooling along with many jobs i could cover two pages of work threw out the build along with many other $$$ tools . the just machine work would be under $ 1000. BUT it would have to do with what the engine neededs to be done to it? a tru -deck with BHJ and bore with deck plates is $310 that the least i would do to the block. less the line bore is hurt then about 150 to 170 for that job. but that is what it cost for me to work on your engine. this may cost you more or less were you live . my shop is full of work :) so i not looking i am just saying what the cost is around here and some jobs i get more for then other shops do it for
I am in total agreement with Pat and Tech as I stated before they posted.All too often a question about a "simple cam swap" involves more than just slamming a cam in.It is irresponsible to advise old school in cases of a engine that is say 30 yrs old.The risks involved with doing that does not out wt the benefits.It is just a simple matter of applying common sense that has nothing at all to do with a one of a kind race engine.And to advise a O/P of those facts is not to discourage him in anyway.It is for certain to protect him for the money he is investing.Quote:
Originally Posted by rspears
This stems from the 40+ yrs I have been involved with hot rods and that is combined with a background in mechanics as a engine tester at the Chevy engine plant and yrs of working as a wrench in repair shops.My professional opinion.
I think there is a compromise between the grand he says he is willing to spend and not much more for a economic rebuild.I agree that a grand might only cover the costs of the machine work needed depending on what is found once the engine is checked out,but with a sensible rebuild of cast pistons,flat tappet cam and kit,and good set of heads maybe later down the road is the best way for him to go.That is far,far,away from a race only engine.
there is many composers on the internet but actually machine/build engines ?.here is a tip for some all lifters in round bores and with out guide plates are made /should turn in the bore the bottom of lifters are not flat most all are ground with a 50+ degree radius should turn in bores... bbc not so much ....i have seen were some posted on low buck deals .i have done many lower buck deals over the years fixed stuff many would not fix ..very few times a guy comes to my shop and ask me to build a engine any way i want. spending there money on any parts i want to use. that is just not happing in real life all the time . all i will say is if your going to re seal the top end why not at least hone bores. polish the crank boil block or jet wash it if you take it to a trusted machine shop tell the guy what you want .he should tell you if it can happen . but like i posted on block work a fresh bore job would not be that much if done with a cast piston but with out seeing the engine and its shape it very hard to say if a rering job going to work .could it be done?? you bet. done it many times even on race engines when pistons are over $800. a set many guys are not so fast to pitch them in the trash
Mike,
You've gotten two or three pieces of good advice here, but unfortunately those "nuggets" are hidden in about 100# of miscellaneous drivel and price advice that you didn't ask for. First of all, 1Gary posted a fantastic link to a Crankshaft Coalition Guide on Cam Selection, giving a very clear and concise guide to cam specs vs static compression - nugget #1. Secondly, TechInspector 1 told you up in Post #49 that trying to put too much cam into your 8:1SCR engine was going to yield bad results, and recommended that you "... install the proper cam for the SCR you have now. Maximum intake valve duration 195 degrees @0.050" tappet lift......NO LOPE......You don't have enough SCR to support lope and a stout motor at the same time, it's one or the other." - nugget #2. Thirdly, Jerry Clayton gave you a piece of wisdom in post #55, saying "...I'd go so far as to say a 51 chev pickup with a 350 v=8 was rad rod enough----".
You started with a question about picking a cam and understanding the numbers you found on your engine, and we seem to be trying to "out expert" each other here, telling you that you can't change a cam without investing $1000 or more in doing a total rebuild on the engine. I stand by what I said before, which 1Gary quoted immediately above - guys have been changing out cams in engines since the early days of hot rodding, learning as they go, making mistakes, and sometimes hitting that home run, or maybe just a good solid base hit. I expect Jerry's advice is best, you're brother's got a nice truck updated with a 350ci engine, and that's pretty cool!! If you decide you want to play and change the cam, then Tech has given you some good advice on picking one that will actually give you some moderate improvement, and you don't really need the Crankshaft Coalition paper other than to understand the "why's", which is always a good thing.
Bottom line, I sincerely hope that you don't let the response to this first post drive you away from CHR. You sound like a good guy, trying to sort things out to help your little brother on his build, and learn a bit along the way. I hope you'll stick around.
drivel ? hell i was asked by the OP to write on here .post # 48 i told him on the cam but that must not count ? ...roller cams .. then post went to roller post so post #52 and cams that many have used over the years at a far price . then tec posted on machine work well Hey that is what i do every day at a shop. so i did out line what the reall deal is for some who may know. but never done it
Roger,Roger,Roger,I remember very well from those" good old school days" we would rebuild,build a engine and some where fast and others where dogs.Ya know what??. We didn't know why like we do now.
Then all those yrs of building engines that Pat has and yes he correctly and accurately answered the O/P's question(s),all the yrs of experience Tech has had seeing good results and well bad ones,then me warning him he has to potential with a old worn engine to damage it and here again yrs of me doing this,where do you get drivel??.
Roger,in my opinion your old school of a cam swap is bad advise,to be direct about it.Not trying to out expert anyone.If anything Roger and especially with me so as not to drive out O/P's,you should stop stirring the pot.
Im keeping an open mind with everything. I want everyones input, thats why i chose to write a post on this forum. When i get home later tonight i'll be able to respond to the last couple posts since im writing this on my cell phone it sucks.
I think that if this is a running rat rod truck, driven locally , leave it alone- you will never realize any gains from the $$$$$$$$$$ you will be spending and if you take it apart to do work on it that your brother can't afford (you need to help him out), you will find that the length of time to complete this will be unbearable and ------------------
It would be much different if it was a daily driver that needed dependability to get to work, school, etc and was used for needed long distance trips to visit family, etc--------but, its a rat rod truck----------you should see my 14 year old rusting Ford F350 with 600k miles----Pat has seen it-----
Yeah know Jerry,if he wants to put some money into it as a bolt on that would apply on anything in the future,a long tube header and good exhaust system would be a good addition.That follows in the vein of a rat rod and it would help it sound better too.Quote:
Originally Posted by jerry clayton
600k miles??.:eek:You could do a write up in a thread how to do that!!!.;):LOL::LOL:
Hook a tripple axle gooseneck featherlite to it and go to races----------
well hell lets go :)Quote:
Originally Posted by jerry clayton
next planned race is Bonneville
I wanta reserve a seat in that ride right next to Pat................will travel, and work for the trip.
save up all your Morton boxes---we'll trade salt for diesel on the way back!!!!!!!!!!
Get ahold of Ford to see if they would paid you for a promotional ad about your truck Jerry.
Hey Mike.Come back so we can continue this discussion about you brother's truck.
im here just kind of thinking things over. I can't really do anything until he gets his tax returns. Can anyone fill me in on pushrod lengths ?
push rod length if stock with all stock part with only to a RV cam change the stock push rods should be fine . its when you change the length by machine block / heads valves . thing can change. as well as new parts like longer valves .roller rocker arms. bigger lift cams . roller cams /lifters .small base cams.after market heads the push rod cup can be hirer up in the lifter and use short push rods . many ways to check valve train geometry . i do it by mid lift and have a tool that puts in to play the rocker arm i and using in the build .there many cam books that will show your were contack point needs to be as the rocker tip cross over the valve stem . at base of cam that is no lift it should be to inside of valve stem face .then at mid lift center full lift to out side of stem . i can not cut in past someone may post a photo of this for you . for test you will need a lifter that is sold or use a very lite test valve spring hyd lifter can collapse in testing and give you a false reading .a checking push rod for size many sell them . then a way to measure the pushrod for the right over all size for new push rods