A SBC build

So does anyone care to look at what I am building and tell me if it looks OK? My SJ 327 block is built, bored 40 with .120 domes and everything was balanced. I am looking at the combo kit that already has dyno data, but they were built on a 350 base. Will this kit work the same on my 327?

Holley Street Dominator intake, Sq bore,As. holley Cyl Head Aluminum 68 cc
Intake Runner Volume (cc): 184cc
Exhaust Port Shape: Square Standard Plug Style: Straight
Intake 2.020 in.Exh1.600 in.
Intake Valve Angle: 20
Lunati cam with 235°/240° duration at .050, .490/.490 in. lift, and 112° lobe separation. $1,690. comes with head bolts and no gaskets.

OR
This kit did not give the details on the cam but is prob. close to the above kit.
edelbrock heads
64 CNC Machined Combustion Chamber: Intake 170cc
Intake Valve Diameter (in): 2.020 in.
Exhaust Valve Diameter (in): 1.600 in.
$1,590. comes with gaskets and no head bolts

eathier kit? or somthing totally different? Will be going in a 68 camaro with T400trans also have to decide on gears and converter size. Will drive it around but not on far off trips.

When you say it's a 350 base, do you mean the pistons are for a 350 or do refer to 350 hp?

Have you checked the DCR with both combinations? I would be concerned about the domed pistons with those head chamber sizes. The '63-'65 327 Corvettes used those type of pistons with 64cc heads, and the static compression ratio was 11.25:1. And I have a feeling that your cam does not have adequate overlap to bleed off enough compression to run pump gas. The DCR maximum for aluminum heads is 8.5 for 92 octane.

with domed pistons and that small of chambers, your are way out of the range for pump gas!!! Race gas is about $7.00 a gallon, makes for expensive cruising!!!!

Thats why i was asking, the "tech guy" at summit told me the head combos would work fine with pump gas, I have never tried figuring DCR or how a cam changes the numbers. By 350 base I meant the 350 CID with flat tops is what the combos had.....I didn't think the .120 domes would hurt me that bad with the 3.25" stroke, would 76 cc heads be better?

One of the kits, the tech guy said would put me at 9.8:1 cr
Guess I need to do some homework & get some help from you guys on figuring out what I need.
Is DCR easy to figure? how is it figured? or is there a thread on that already?

I would look at either Edelbrock heads with 70cc chambers or Dart Pro 1's with 72cc chambers, or better yet, AFR 180 heads with 75cc chambers. See if they would bring your compression down enough so your DCR (dynamic compression ratio) is under 8.5. With the right cam you can run over 10.5:1 static compression as long as the intake valve closes late enough to create a satisfactory DCR.

Here is the rebuild kit I have................

Product Line: Federal Mogul Premium Engine Rebuild Kits
Piston Material: Forged aluminum
Piston Style: .120 Dome
Piston Ring Facing Material: Moly
Piston and Ring Oversize (in): 0.040 in.

Notes: Approximate compression ratio 10.35:1 with a 64cc head.

First, let me say that that cam is so big for a 327 that it will be virtually unstreetable. I would recommend something comparable to a CompCams 270 Magnum (224/224, .470/.470). I ran that cam in a 327 and it had a nice lope, lots of power, and had decent street manners. I ran a DCR on your engine combination and with this cam, you would need 74 or 75cc combustion chambers--I calculated it with 75cc and the DCR was 8.35 which would be good for premium gas. I also calculated 72cc chambers (DCR=8.66) and 70cc chambers (DCR=9.11), both of which would require racing gas. While it is true that you could run a big cam so you could run smaller chambers, you would severely compromise drivability. I could not find the intake closing point figured at .006 valve timing for the Lunati Voodoo 60103 cam which would also be a good choice for you. Either way you would be pleased with the combination as long as you could use those AFR 75cc heads (AFR has the best flowing heads out there--they are not cheap but they are worth every penny). Your best option would be to use a kit with flat top pistons. It would give you a lot more choices for aluminum heads.

first, is the piston 0 decked?? and how far if it is?? a .120 dome is fine with the 68cc holly's or the 75cc afr. the 64cc eddys are pushing is. the cam is fine with the combo but the loss in stroke from the 350 to 327 will lose torque. if you can get 92-94 octane fuel then 10.5 will be fine. because the short block is already togather the worse thing could happen is it wont run on pump gas at full timing. if this happens and i'm 99.9% sure it wont then you will have to pull the heads and put a thicker head gasket on it. companys like flatout, sce, and others make head gaskets in .040, .050, .060, .070. so it's realy no big deal if it's off.it can be fixed. but like i said your fine if you stay 68cc or bigger on the chamber.

I don't want a "smaller" cam. I want the biggest cam I can run for my combo which I think would be the one I listed, I don't think a bigger cam than what i listed would help any. I also don't want my engine to have "street manners" I want my engine to be borderline streetable.It is not zero decked, the blocks head surface has not been touched.

with that said.... the cam is way to small and use the 64cc head with atleast a runner of 180cc. most out of the box 180cc heads start to crap out at .575-.600 lift. i would use a small roller cam not a flat tappet. push the compression to 11to1 with the right cam and you can add some octane booster yes it works. this is a engine i built for a guys vette last yr. the heads were afr 180cc, small roller cam, victor intake,750dp, comp was 10.82to1. rods eagle, crank stock forged. don't use a hv oil pump all they do is suck the oil out of the pan. run a 6-7qt pan so theres no oil problems. on the dyno most small block chevy will pull all the oil out of the pan with only a 5qt pan. the heads will have to be setup for a roller if you go that way. i used stud gridles for the valve train to. the engine made 415hp and 542hp on a 100shot of nos...good luck if you what the cam specs i will have to look them up. i think it was a small soild roller like 570lift and 258-260@.050duration...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DennyW

I hope you have a blank check book when you start buying these parts. :LOL: :LOL: Anything over .500 lift, and it really costs in getting it to hold up in that motor.

---

Don't think i'll be going there!!! over 500 lift that is........The holley kit has the 490 lift and I think the Edel kit has about a 480.................Both combos are tested on a zero deck flat top 350 so it leads me to believe it will work for me............although one reply says It will not work and another say it will guess I'll have to see if anyone else has an input on if it will work. if not i'll just flip a coin and build it that away.

No blank check...............looking to spend >2K on heads/cam/intake and live with whatever power i can make................

.500 lift ???denny you messy with us!!! hell a new vette has more then .550 lift.

your point???

the bore is the same 327,350,383. can say in 20yrs of building race engine there was a lift to cid limit...way waste the money for good heads that flow and make a ton more power then the stock crap if you don't cam it.......

your right sorry!!!!! lol.

TY, the bigger the cam the more HP so the bigger stall you need. With the cam in the combo kit I listed I am thinking 3K stall or 3,500, a cam bigger will need more stall which would limit driveability.
So doesn't my cam need to be talored around my stall??????????????
Was thinking 4:11 but either 3:73 or 4:11 would work I can adjust tire size for the slicks I need (taller or shorter)

chevy, i have been profiling cams for 20yrs.. you say bigger?? what is bigger there's a thuosand different thing as to cam profiles. lift doesn't meen your going to make power at 9000rpm. i can grind a cam that has .700 lift and all the power is down low or move the power up. the timing events of each cycle has more to do with were the power and torque curves are. the lsa of a cam meens nothing at all and those cams you posted are just a noise maker other then a power maker. but cool sound sells.. with the heads your looking at you can put alot more cam into it with a 3500 stall and 4.11 gears.. if you what me to profile a cam for you i can find a off the shelf part number that will make alot more power then the noise makers...

Ya know what??? Unless you're running a Super Stock class and looking for 2 or 3 hundredths of a second to get on the index, or trying to find 3 more mph on your next pass at Bonneville, the "ultimate" camshaft is little more then ammo for the next bench racing session. With all the variables in a street car, and not running the engine at 100% efficiency and maximum effort every pass, the cam in the catalog with the definition most closely matching your intended vehicle usage and on sale at Sumitt for $99.95 with lifters will accomplish the same thing.... Matter of fact, the only place you would see the horsepower and torque difference is on the dyno... weather changes from 9AM to 8PM would show bigger gains or losses in HP. Being plus or minus 10 horse on the street is nothing more then bragging (or BS) rights..... A balanced approach to optimizing all the systems on a car and getting them to operate in a manner that compliments each other instead of one area negating performance improvements in another is a far better place to spend your money then a $300.00 custom grind, one off camshaft.....

dave, your just joking with use right!!!!

To get the most out of the answers that are given ,you need to list exact parts {which you did} and you also need to state budget{which you did } you also need to state intended use and acceptable driving manners for you.

One mans tunning nightmare engine ,may be another mans dream engine:LOL:
Do you want max power ?
Max sound ?
Max speed?
Max acceleration ?
All of those non engine things come into play when ordering parts.
Soo .120 domes .035 down in the hole ,those need to match the heads you want ,will those heads accept a dome of that size and are they made for dome that shape?
You also need to know if the heads have the correct size cc for the domes you have to make the intended static compression{remember the later the intake closing point is to make the dynamic compression acceptable,the less stroke you use}If you have to have a cam with a very late intake closing point to make the dynamic compression work on pump gas,you loose alot of stroke,meaning less power,you want to use as much as the stroke as possible and not waste any by bleeding off compression with a long duraton /late intake closing point cam.
Theres no voodo or black magic needed,the heads are already dictated by the already purchased domes and the intended pump gas usage.
This info gives you the chamber size{cc} that will be needed.Second ,the rpm and cubic inches dictates the port size on the heads.Your already purchased lower end has parts good to a safe 6000 rpm give or take a few.This info tells you what you need to know for a port size.
Then based on rpm/cubic inches/static compression/port size ,now you can choose a cam to compliment that combination based on stats of your parts .
From reading your posts ,you need to do alot of reading on static compression/dynamic compression,quench and cam principals or you need to take all of the info you have and let a cam company or a member here choose one for you.
Also a point that has not been mentioned yet either is quench,you just cant open that up with a thicker gasket or a huge open chamber head and exspect it to perform well either.
Remember ,every bit a bigger cam gives you in power is taken away from the low end,3500 stall 6000 rpm redline 2500 rpm to effectivly use ,then reduce the stroke with a long cam..............sounds like trouble brewing.

With those domes ,I would look at aluminum heads,so you can use the 11 to 1 compression and not loose as much stroke,then purchase a cam according to the alu heads to get the correct pump gas dynamic compression.
Anything over 350 -375 hp with that 327 and yer just leaking in the wind, unless you get the lower end parts to support 7 to 8 thousand rpm,which you stated is out of the budgett.
The bigger you push that cam to run pump gas,the slower that engine will go on that budgett and a street converter.
If you just want burger stand noise,keep everything stock and cheap , use a comp cams thumper cam and save alot of money .:LOL:
If you want max power and performance look into individual parts and not a kit or combo.
I think you are chasing those domes thru the entire engine ,trying to make em work,.120 domes are usually a racing item for race gas and require abnormal size heads on the street,making the combo complex to purchase parts for..................You would be money ahead to sell the domes ,after all they are new,and buy some good flat tops so you can use a normal selection of cheap standard performance heads,your gunna fight those .120 domes that are .035 down in the hole thru the entire build and be lucky if you can get the quench small enuff not to detonate on anything more than base timing and premium.
Unfortunatly you are not headed down the road to max performance,your headed toward a burger stand tunning nightmare.
Seriously ,you would be better off with a stock engine and a thumper cam and a 3500 rpm stall.:whacked:
Most people like to learn the hard way unfortunatly,build the big cam /high stall motor for the street and then you will know what you need next time .:rolleyes:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by 500caddy

dave, your just joking with use right!!!!

---

Ahhhh, nope!!!! Way too much emphasis on horsepower these days, few want to address the issues in building a complete car with systems and components that work together!!!!!

Rather then just another SBC cam/head discussion, how about these questions??????
I'd be curious to know what kind of car? What's been done to the suspension? Frame ties or does it have a full frame? Roll bar or cage? What shocks on the front and rear? Travel limiters on the front suspension? Any traction bars? Open rear end or a posi? What's the car weigh, and have you checked the front to rear weight ratio? What does the car have for a cooling system? What's the ride height of the car? What's the pinion angle? What are the camber, caster, and toe in specs? What's the tire diameter? Tire compound? Line Lock? Is the rotating assembly balanced? What size fuel lines? What's the GPH rating on the pump? Pressure regulator with or without a return system? Any nitrous or other power boosters? Anything done to lower the unsprung weight?

These and many other questions determine the performance potential of the car, not just the stick with the funny little bumps on it!!!!!!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dave Severson

Ahhhh, nope!!!! Way too much emphasis on horsepower these days, few want to address the issues in building a complete car with systems and components that work together!!!!!

Rather then just another SBC cam/head discussion, how about these questions??????
I'd be curious to know what kind of car? What's been done to the suspension? Frame ties or does it have a full frame? Roll bar or cage? What shocks on the front and rear? Travel limiters on the front suspension? Any traction bars? Open rear end or a posi? What's the car weigh, and have you checked the front to rear weight ratio? What does the car have for a cooling system? What's the ride height of the car? What's the pinion angle? What are the camber, caster, and toe in specs? What's the tire diameter? Tire compound? Line Lock? Is the rotating assembly balanced? What size fuel lines? What's the GPH rating on the pump? Pressure regulator with or without a return system? Any nitrous or other power boosters? Anything done to lower the unsprung weight?

These and many other questions determine the performance potential of the car, not just the stick with the funny little bumps on it!!!!!!

---

well this is funny ? if you build engines and the cars not fast. another engine builder will tell you your engine is $hit never mind the fact that the car burns the tires off in three gears. and not to be a smart a$$ shawnleee28 do you build engines for someone.or do you do this for pay .have you run any big cams on the street ? do not take this the wrong way. i just want to know :)

dave, he was talking about the engine not a car combo!!!... i don't build a car, pick a gear, converter, carb, chassis and all the other stuff intill i build the power plant... how the hell do you know what to buy for the car if you have no clue as to the power and torque the engines making????if the dyno numbers and cam size etc are just for bragging then were the hell do you start your build??? i have built many 333-377 on pump gas with full roller cams that were .630lift or more and very streetable. i drive my nova just about every day and it has a socalled big cam. to me there's alot of old school thinking on this. as for this post the guy said he whats something that is boarder line streetable. well the little cams he posted are more like noise makers then power makers. you can go alot bigger with the right valve timing events on pump gas and make 425-450 only spinning it to 6000-6200 and for that matter i have spun 327 to 7000-7500 with all stock internals. as for converters when there advertised at a stall speed it all depends on the engine,gear,weight etc etc as to were that converters going to hit. i run a 8" 5000 in the nova but it wont go past 3600 and drives great. on the chassis dyno it has less of a slip % then the 3200 stall behind my big block that goes 4400.. i get guys telling me you can't run a 8" on the street well those guys haven't a clue as to how a converter works. i just think its very silly to not cam this engine right after spending the money on the heads. as for heads i get a real kick when someone says you can put a 210cc runner on a 327 it wont work right. well thats crap there the same guys that can't tell me the port speed or the low lift flow rates from one to the other so how the hell would they know. i have seen 230 runner with ten times a better port speed and low lift numbers then a 180cc runner. what does that all meen the 230 would work better then the 180 on a small cid engine and you wouldn't have the spin the hell out of it...i'm not trying to agrue dave. just the guys that refer to lsa on cams and runner cc on heads as to what they will or will not work on makes my crazy!!!!! i'm just trying to help the guy out and teach him about how the stuff works....pat i couldn't agree more with your commet to shawnlee

must be some thing in the water in MICH i have used 8and 9s stalls on the street they work great and big BIG cam s i try to keep the lift down abit if i know it may kill the springs and the guy low bucks:3dSMILE:

it's the motor city pat. all i can say at this point is everybodys doing it around here and i have been doing it for the last 15yrs with know problems. it must be the something in the gas outside of michigan.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by 500caddy

dave, he was talking about the engine not a car combo!!!... i don't build a car, pick a gear, converter, carb, chassis and all the other stuff intill i build the power plant... how the hell do you know what to buy for the car if you have no clue as to the power and torque the engines making????if the dyno numbers and cam size etc are just for bragging then were the hell do you start your build??? i have built many 333-377 on pump gas with full roller cams that were .630lift or more and very streetable. i drive my nova just about every day and it has a socalled big cam. to me there's alot of old school thinking on this. as for this post the guy said he whats something that is boarder line streetable. well the little cams he posted are more like noise makers then power makers. you can go alot bigger with the right valve timing events on pump gas and make 425-450 only spinning it to 6000-6200 and for that matter i have spun 327 to 7000-7500 with all stock internals. as for converters when there advertised at a stall speed it all depends on the engine,gear,weight etc etc as to were that converters going to hit. i run a 8" 5000 in the nova but it wont go past 3600 and drives great. on the chassis dyno it has less of a slip % then the 3200 stall behind my big block that goes 4400.. i get guys telling me you can't run a 8" on the street well those guys haven't a clue as to how a converter works. i just think its very silly to not cam this engine right after spending the money on the heads. as for heads i get a real kick when someone says you can put a 210cc runner on a 327 it wont work right. well thats crap there the same guys that can't tell me the port speed or the low lift flow rates from one to the other so how the hell would they know. i have seen 230 runner with ten times a better port speed and low lift numbers then a 180cc runner. what does that all meen the 230 would work better then the 180 on a small cid engine and you wouldn't have the spin the hell out of it...i'm not trying to agrue dave. just the guys that refer to lsa on cams and runner cc on heads as to what they will or will not work on makes my crazy!!!!! i'm just trying to help the guy out and teach him about how the stuff works....pat i couldn't agree more with your commet to shawnlee

---

So, if the engine makes good power, nothing else matters???? C'mon, get out of the dyno room and see what the rest of the car is doing!!! I've seen waaaaaaay too many cases of big horse engines overpowering the chassis to believe that horsepower is the only thing that counts...... I don't argue on lsa's or runner volumes...when it's time for the correct cam and heads I call my engine guy and get the right stuff sent to me.

My point was this...There is so many things on a car other then the camshaft that will effect it's overall performance, not just the dyno numbers but the way the car works in a real world environment. From a been there, done that standpoint I've whooped a lot of big horse engines with little or no chassis and suspension work with my lower horse engine in a car that works properly. I just think it is equally as important to suggest to a guy building a car that there's more to going fast then a lot of horsepower!!!!

As for the comments to Shawn,,,,, I don't have an engine shop either. Guess I shouldn't be allowed to discuss engines???? C'mon guys, the engine and it's power is important, but certainly not the only aspect of the build to consider...... If it was all about horsepower then we could just go to the track, compare dyno sheets, and declare the biggest horse engine the winner????? That's just not how things work, is it? I think it's misleading when making engine suggestions to not find out how much horsepower the car can handle without blowing the tires off the car.....

As for the comments to Shawn,,,,, I don't have an engine shop either. Guess I shouldn't be allowed to discuss engines???? .....[/QUOTE] nope never said that :) this form can be many things? it can be condense dribble :D i come to the table i may not back every thing i say up with real dyno numbers buT any thing i post you can bet your ass i have done it or i would not post it. all i ask was how many big cams has he run thats it. you can take that any way you want or just look at it as if he has done it thats it:D

dave when i get out from behind the dyno i have a stock suspenion nova on drag radials that runs 8.30 street driven. if i what to go fast i have a chevelle that has 1900hp and runs 7.60@over 180 has been driven on a 400mile round trip. runs those time on a 10.5 slick. but we were talking about a 400-450hp engine all the things that you list aren't real word needs. slapper bars and sticky tires and the chassis stuff is done.. i just have a hard time giving advice and not telling them how to get every last hp.. i would like to have to much power then not enough. as for me i can never have to much power. i can just tune some out.

Your right,,,,none of that is real world, only horsepower matters!!!! Got some pics of these stock suspension cars that run in the 7's and 8's???? Guess I've really been wasting my time building good chassis all these years, huh????

how would i know about your chassis first of all i'm not a chassis guy... but you tell me to get out from behind the dyno were have you been??? the stock suspenions all motor class is running 8.20-30s. you can run on a true 10.5 slick no w's allowed. the drag radail class i run are 8.20-8.30 and the biggest tire is 295/60-15 i'm on m/t. the chevelle is a backhalf ladder bar car. the front is all stock other then drag shocks. full chassis car are cool but i'm into street cars. hell marty crane went 7.95 on a all stock 93 mustang suspension other then just bolting on stronger parts and a cage. as for pics i have alot of 35mm pics don't do much good..

if you what pics and video come to a track when we are running heads up classes. hell 3 weeks ago steve morris showed up with he's 4000# wagon and went 8.07 procharged 572.. drove the car 150mile to the track went 8.07 and drove home..

Yeah well, my bad. I'm new to this hot rod stuff....Just got started about 40 years ago... I always thought there was more to it then horsepower, guess I was wrong. But then, there are many other forms of motorsport other then drag racing, maybe that's what got me confused??? Guess I've probably been involved in too many things other then drag racing..... As for drag racing, I'll have to take your word for it, my experience never went beyond a top alcohol dragster.....

PS, but that was many years ago, back when top alcohol was only running 5.80's... Got to excuse my age!!!

Stock suspension is cheap man, gives you more money for "horsepower", but watch out if you break traction and get a little sideways,,,,,good luck getting it back straight at around 100 MPH...................................

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by chevydrivin

Stock suspension is cheap man, gives you more money for "horsepower", but watch out if you break traction and get a little sideways,,,,,good luck getting it back straight at around 100 MPH...................................

---

Good point. Also, the stock suspension is engineered for about 2 to 3 hundred horsepower. Much over that is stressing it far beyond it's designed usage and subject to parts breakage....normally at a very inopportune time!!!!! (aka, sideways at 100 mph:LOL: :LOL: :LOL: )

ya your can get alot good info from those top alcohol dragsters for street cars and heads up street racing on stock suspension. i see your point of being in it for 40yrs you got stuck someware in the 70s. thats total crap stock suspenions are designed for 200-300hp that's some funny right there. i guess we need to pull million of vette's mustangs etc etc.. man the 70s mout have been hard on you

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by 500caddy

if you what pics and video come to a track when we are running heads up classes. hell 3 weeks ago steve morris showed up with he's 4000# wagon and went 8.07 procharged 572.. drove the car 150mile to the track went 8.07 and drove home..

---

I much prefer using my trailer, never had enough room in a tubbed and caged car, let alone a tube chassis car, for a tool box, spares, barbeque grille, lawn chairs, etc.... Besides, out here in the sticks it's a long walk home if the car breaks.....

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by 500caddy

ya your can get alot good info from those top alcohol dragsters for street cars and heads up street racing on stock suspension.

---

Yeah, just shows how little I know about going fast I guess. I'll defer to the experts.....

dave, your starting to bore the hell out of me. you don't build engines and you have someone build them for you, you couldn't even tell me what the hell all the numbers on a cam card meen or how they come up with the numbers. from want i see you use the phone to build your stuff.. just think this all started because you haven't clue how cams work.. here give us the answer to this ivo 20, ivc 62, evo 69, evc21. give us the duration at .050 exh and int, intake center, exh center, overlap, lsa.. and don't use your decktop dyno. show me how you came up with the numbers . good luck..

Like I said, I'll defer to the experts....I'm sure you're the best there is.....and horsepower is the only thing that counts.... I don't claim to be the expert, you seem to be the one doing that.... But anyway, you are quite entertaining!!!!

PS--I don't have a desktop dyno, I call my engine man for that, too....