ID these heads? They don't look Vortec! + other questions

I am trying to ID this engine/heads. Here is a shot of the heads without the intake
http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a1...DSCN4014sm.jpg

And here is a shot of the bottom of the intake (Edelbrock Performer RPM 7101)
http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a1...DSCN4013sm.jpg

I was told by the previous owner that this was the 330hp crate engine from Summit - with Vortec heads. These don't look like Vortec heads to me and the intake is not for Vortec heads. I just want to make sure that I am seeing things right since I am new to working on SBC's. Any help?

One other question - why are there 6 water outlets leading to the intake, but 2 of them are blocked off by the intake? I can see coolant inside the port on the head that is blocked by the intake, but it doesn't make sense to me to block it. What's the reason?

Yet another question - there is rust above the water ports from the leak. I can put a new gasket on properly, but should I be doing anything else about the rust?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Saxman

I am trying to ID this engine/heads. Here is a shot of the heads without the intake
http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a1...DSCN4014sm.jpg

And here is a shot of the bottom of the intake (Edelbrock Performer RPM 7101)
http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a1...DSCN4013sm.jpg

I was told by the previous owner that this was the 330hp crate engine from Summit - with Vortec heads. These don't look like Vortec heads to me and the intake is not for Vortec heads. I just want to make sure that I am seeing things right since I am new to working on SBC's. Any help?

One other question - why are there 6 water outlets leading to the intake, but 2 of them are blocked off by the intake? I can see coolant inside the port on the head that is blocked by the intake, but it doesn't make sense to me to block it. What's the reason?

Yet another question - there is rust above the water ports from the leak. I can put a new gasket on properly, but should I be doing anything else about the rust?

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They are not Vortec heads.
What are the head casting numbers?

Eric is right, of course. For the next time, here is how you can spot a Vortec. The intake is held to the heads with 8 bolts on a Vortec, yours has 12= prevortec. Also, the valve covers are held on by 4 bolts around the perimeter of the cover. Vortecs have 4 bolts down the center of the cover, in a line.

You might want to go back to that previous owner and "mention" his little bit of "misinformation" that he gave you. :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: Makes you wonder what else he lied about.


Don

I can't really see the water pump is it a reverse direction pump??

I can't see the casting number so far. Is it on the end of the heads?

It is an electric water pump and I believe it is reversed since it flows to the left side of the engine.

I'll post casting numbers if I can find out where they are.

Thanks!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Itoldyouso

Eric is right, of course. For the next time, here is how you can spot a Vortec. The intake is held to the heads with 8 bolts on a Vortec, yours has 12= prevortec. Also, the valve covers are held on by 4 bolts around the perimeter of the cover. Vortecs have 4 bolts down the center of the cover, in a line.

You might want to go back to that previous owner and "mention" his little bit of "misinformation" that he gave you. :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: Makes you wonder what else he lied about.

Don

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Exactly!

I just wanted to be sure I was right about the heads. GEEZ!

Hey Eric: Someone posted on here a week or so ago that the only true Vortec heads have this sawtooth pattern cast into the front of the heads, where the old Fuelie heads had the double humps. What's with that? My heads are Vortec, and they don't have that, nor do any of the ones I looked at in our parts dept at work.

And if I can ask (not trying to hijack, but it is along the same lines), my heads are these, and I pulled them up on Mortec. Can you tell me anything about them and how good they are. Not looking for out and out HP, just usable heads.


10239906...96-up...350.........."Vortec 5700", "L31", 64cc chamber,
170cc intake port, 1.94"/1.5" valves

Thanks, Don

462624 is on the inside of the head along with "Hencho Mexico". I wonder which crate engine these heads came with? The block says casting#10066036...

(edited to correct the head #'s - oops!)

Here is your engine.

10066036...350...........2 or 4...Target Master/Goodwrench crate motor, 2-piece rear
seal, "Hecho en Mexico"

Don

Can't find that head number.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Itoldyouso

Hey Eric: Someone posted on here a week or so ago that the only true Vortec heads have this sawtooth pattern cast into the front of the heads, where the old Fuelie heads had the double humps. What's with that? My heads are Vortec, and they don't have that, nor do any of the ones I looked at in our parts dept at work.

And if I can ask (not trying to hijack, but it is along the same lines), my heads are these, and I pulled them up on Mortec. Can you tell me anything about them and how good they are. Not looking for out and out HP, just usable heads.


10239906...96-up...350.........."Vortec 5700", "L31", 64cc chamber,
170cc intake port, 1.94"/1.5" valves

Thanks, Don

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These heads will work fine for hp levels up to say 450.
If you want more hp I would look at a bigger runner size.
Because of the valve size and port size these heads would work great for a mild street car.
The should make good mid-range power.
Because of the intake to exhaust ratio I would look at cam's that favor the exhaust side by at least an extra 4-6 degree's.
An example of this would be a Crane part #113931.
Spec's are .440 in.,.454 ex,duration at .050 would be 210 in,216 ex,.
I am not saying this would work for what you are doing but it is a good example.
Always favor the exhaust with these heads.

Thank you Sir.

Looks like Saxman bought a Goodwrench engine instead of a Summit 330, huh?

Don't you just hate liars. The guy who sold him this is lucky this isn't Iran. He would be walking around without a tongue.:eek: :eek: :eek: :D :D :D

Don

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Itoldyouso

Thank you Sir.

Looks like Saxman bought a Goodwrench engine instead of a Summit 330, huh?

Don't you just hate liars. The guy who sold him this is lucky this isn't Iran. He would be walking around without a tongue.:eek: :eek: :eek: :D :D :D

Don

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Not a problem.Calling me sir is about like installing an elevator in an out-house.L.O.L

:LOL: :LOL: :LOL: :LOL: :LOL: :LOL: :LOL: :LOL: :LOL: :LOL:

Don

I found this "universal" Goodwrench longblock - http://ratfactor.com/vehicle/k10/) -, but the head #'s are not the same. Are the cast #'s I pulled right or can I find the # somewhere other than between the valves?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Saxman

I found this "universal" Goodwrench longblock - http://ratfactor.com/vehicle/k10/) -, but the head #'s are not the same. Are the cast #'s I pulled right or can I find the # somewhere other than between the valves?

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The "casting numbers" are raised numbers that appear in a flat area next to the rocker arm studs

oops - the head # is 462624

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Saxman

oops - the head # is 462624

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76 cc combustion chambers.Could be either 1.94 in/1.50 exhaust or the smaller valve version.

Anyone know what hp I can expect from the crate engine?

Thanks for the help so far!!

looks like you have the same block as me, Saxman. It's a good motor. Don't worry. Just rebuild and be happy :P

It's a fun .. "peppy" motor heh. peppy. seriously just stick a cam in it and be happy. Or buy yourself some vortec heads. Either way the block is good..


that being said if you can't return the motor..

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Crowbie

looks like you have the same block as me, Saxman. It's a good motor. Don't worry. Just rebuild and be happy :P

It's a fun .. "peppy" motor heh. peppy. seriously just stick a cam in it and be happy. Or buy yourself some vortec heads. Either way the block is good..

that being said if you can't return the motor..

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I can't return the motor since it is in the used car I just bought. The problem is that he told me it was the 330hp crate engine from Summit. That's part of the reason I bought it.

I talked to him again and he said that he is sure it was rated at 330hp. I called Summit today and they don't have a non-Vortec engine rated at 330hp.

So frustrating!

I just found some new numbers toward the front of the block. They are 1MO709 5VP. I think I remember a number similar to this on another thread (I think it ended in 8VP) which denoted a certain crate engine. Google did not show anything on this number. Any ideas?

Saxman: What you are running into is the same thing we've seen for years. Every sbc that was installed in any car was suddenly a "corvette" engine, not a "chevy" engine. You would ask any rodder what was under the hood and it was always "Corvette." Your seller either told you a lie, or believed that it was a 330hp because of what a previous owner told him.

Was he the guy who built this car? If so, he should be able to provide you with an invoice for the Summit engine. Or, at the very least Summit should have some record under his name of selling him the engine. Most companies keep these kinds of sales on record for warranty purposes.

Bottom line, it is pretty obvious you do not have a 330 horse, but a generic Goodwrench base engine. Nothing wrong with that, but if you paid for the 330 and based your purchase on that, then you have something to talk to the seller about. At the very least he was deceptive and at the most, some fraud was involved.

You have to make the decision about how important those extra 80 horses are to you in the overall purchase, and act accordingly.

Don

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Itoldyouso

Saxman: What you are running into is the same thing we've seen for years. Every sbc that was installed in any car was suddenly a "corvette" engine, not a "chevy" engine. You would ask any rodder what was under the hood and it was always "Corvette." Your seller either told you a lie, or believed that it was a 330hp because of what a previous owner told him.

Was he the guy who built this car? If so, he should be able to provide you with an invoice for the Summit engine. Or, at the very least Summit should have some record under his name of selling him the engine. Most companies keep these kinds of sales on record for warranty purposes.

Bottom line, it is pretty obvious you do not have a 330 horse, but a generic Goodwrench base engine. Nothing wrong with that, but if you paid for the 330 and based your purchase on that, then you have something to talk to the seller about. At the very least he was deceptive and at the most, some fraud was involved.

You have to make the decision about how important those extra 80 horses are to you in the overall purchase, and act accordingly.Don

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Thank, Itoldyouso,

They guy I bought it from built it and said that his Mother-in-Law (Ann Davis) bought a 330hp GM crate engine from Summit a couple years ago. Summitt can't look it up without a zip code, and since the seller will have nothing to do with me (now that I know the engine is not what he said), I can't even get her zip. Besides, he knows he lied - so my advice to all: do NOT do business with Steve Yanda at Yons Racing in Colliers, WV.

The last guy that did this to me cannot sell his kit cars anymore because I made sure the word got out in the kit-car community. All I want Yons to do is tell me what engine is really in there...

I will be looking for some steel Vortec heads soon to give this "LM1" a little boost.

Thanks again for the advice, everyone!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Saxman

Thank, Itoldyouso,

They guy I bought it from built it and said that his Mother-in-Law (Ann Davis) bought a 330hp GM crate engine from Summit a couple years ago. Summitt can't look it up without a zip code, and since the seller will have nothing to do with me (now that I know the engine is not what he said), I can't even get her zip. Besides, he knows he lied - so my advice to all: do NOT do business with Steve Yanda at Yons Racing in Colliers, WV.

The last guy that did this to me cannot sell his kit cars anymore because I made sure the word got out in the kit-car community. All I want Yons to do is tell me what engine is really in there...

I will be looking for some steel Vortec heads soon to give this "LM1" a little boost.

Thanks again for the advice, everyone!

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It really is "buyer beware".
I would be very careful of what you say about people on the net.
Some people have been sued before for making slanderish re-marks.
What I can't understand is why a legit business owner won't return your calls.
Was this a used engine or an engine he was selling on consignment for someone else?
So if I understand this correctly this was supposedly a 330hp crate engine from Summit and Steve at Yon's racing re-built the engine?
Wow!!!,that is a story.
Did you leave anything out??
Just remember there are two sides or more to every story.

We have a local guy who advertises built bbc engines in the paper all the time. Man I know bought one to put in his TransAm, turned out the engine was put together with all junk, mismatched parts. He ended up suing the guy and did get his money back, but it was a fight.

I am in the marine business, and I see work done by other marinas and mobile techs all the time that borders on fraud. Anyone can get a business license, a listing in the phone book, and a shop. However, only a certain percentage of those are qualified or honest business people. That extends to the car hobby as well.

If you have any documentation of what you were supposed to have in that car, I would consider Small Claims Court. It will only cost you a few bucks and generally the burdon falls on the business to have superior knowledge, and the courts view it that way. If you only have a verbal on the 330 HP thing, you probably are out of luck, but it still may be worth your while to inconvenience the guy for the day he has to go to court, and it may also shake him up enough to make him want to make it right.

JMO,

Don

Quote:

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Originally Posted by erik erikson

It really is "buyer beware".
I would be very careful of what you say about people on the net.
Some people have been sued before for making slanderish re-marks.
What I can't understand is why a legit business owner won't return your calls.
Was this a used engine or an engine he was selling on consignment for someone else?
So if I understand this correctly this was supposedly a 330hp crate engine from Summit and Steve at Yon's racing re-built the engine?
Wow!!!,that is a story.
Did you leave anything out??
Just remember there are two sides or more to every story.

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It's not slander if it's the truth and you can prove it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Itoldyouso

We have a local guy who advertises built bbc engines in the paper all the time. Man I know bought one to put in his TransAm, turned out the engine was put together with all junk, mismatched parts. He ended up suing the guy and did get his money back, but it was a fight.

I am in the marine business, and I see work done by other marinas and mobile techs all the time that borders on fraud. Anyone can get a business license, a listing in the phone book, and a shop. However, only a certain percentage of those are qualified or honest business people. That extends to the car hobby as well.

If you have any documentation of what you were supposed to have in that car, I would consider Small Claims Court. It will only cost you a few bucks and generally the burdon falls on the business to have superior knowledge, and the courts view it that way. If you only have a verbal on the 330 HP thing, you probably are out of luck, but it still may be worth your while to inconvenience the guy for the day he has to go to court, and it may also shake him up enough to make him want to make it right.

JMO,

Don

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And he also might have the option of suing for his "lost time" if he wins.
At $75 an hour plus court cost this might be rather pricey.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by NTFDAY

It's not slander if it's the truth and you can prove it.

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Ummm,I just have one question.
What Chevy guy does not know the center bolt pattern on a set of valve covers that would let you know it was a Vortec head??

Quote:

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Originally Posted by erik erikson

Ummm,I just have one question.
What Chevy guy does not know the center bolt pattern on a set of valve covers that would let you know it was a Vortec head??

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I was just merely stating that the truth cannot be construed as slander.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by NTFDAY

I was just merely stating that the truth cannot be construed as slander.

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Yes,I understand that.
He will have a tough time proving that in court if it was only verbal.
I just have a tough time understanding why a shop would try and pass something off as eaisly known a vortec engine.
Even the Ford and Mopar boy's know what a voetec head looks like.

Quote:

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Also, the valve covers are held on by 4 bolts around the perimeter of the cover. Vortecs have 4 bolts down the center of the cover, in a line.

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Some newer heads have both.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Henry Rifle

Some newer heads have both.

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He has pictures in his first post.

I think what he said in his first post sums it up pretty well............


I was told by the previous owner that this was the 330hp crate engine from Summit - with Vortec heads. These don't look like Vortec heads to me and the intake is not for Vortec heads. I just want to make sure that I am seeing things right since I am new to working on SBC's. Any help?


It looks like in the sales pitch the seller TOLD him it was a Vortec, and not knowing Chevies he just accepted that as fact. I see this every day at the marina, someone buys a boat and the seller "told" him the engine was rebuilt, or the exhaust manifolds were just changed, and when we tear down the engine it is obvious he was misled.

We humans tend to believe other humans are as honest as we are. It is just human nature, plus we are excited to be getting this new toy and don't really ask for any proof that such an such has been really done. I think Saxman is sort of out of luck as he probably doesn't have anything in writing. But, as mentioned earlier, nothing ventured, nothing gained. Either have an Attorney write them a letter or take it yourself to small claims court.

I also wonder why the engine is torn down at this time. Did it fail or are you just putting a new intake, etc on it?


Don


Oh, another thing I hear a lot at the marina "nah, don't fix that, I am selling it anyway." Guess who gets to pay for the repair in the end?

Well, being new to SBC's, I did not know anything about Vortec heads, so he had me there. Even after I got the car home, he sent me the link to the Summit website pointing to the 330hp Crate. He advertised the car here: http://www.cardomain.com/ride/2389944 - so it is obvious that he claims the crate engine was 330hp. Summit doesn't have any other 330hp crate engine.

The guy's business is out of his back yard, so I doubt he does a lot of business - especially doing this kind of thing.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Itoldyouso

I think what he said in his first post sums it up pretty well............


I was told by the previous owner that this was the 330hp crate engine from Summit - with Vortec heads. These don't look like Vortec heads to me and the intake is not for Vortec heads. I just want to make sure that I am seeing things right since I am new to working on SBC's. Any help?


It looks like in the sales pitch the seller TOLD him it was a Vortec, and not knowing Chevies he just accepted that as fact. I see this every day at the marina, someone buys a boat and the seller "told" him the engine was rebuilt, or the exhaust manifolds were just changed, and when we tear down the engine it is obvious he was misled.

We humans tend to believe other humans are as honest as we are. It is just human nature, plus we are excited to be getting this new toy and don't really ask for any proof that such an such has been really done. I think Saxman is sort of out of luck as he probably doesn't have anything in writing. But, as mentioned earlier, nothing ventured, nothing gained. Either have an Attorney write them a letter or take it yourself to small claims court.

I also wonder why the engine is torn down at this time. Did it fail or are you just putting a new intake, etc on it?


Don


Oh, another thing I hear a lot at the marina "nah, don't fix that, I am selling it anyway." Guess who gets to pay for the repair in the end?

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Yes, the intake manifold was leaking pretty bad and there were no temp sensors in the car, so I couldn't tell what was going on inside. I only ran it for a couple of minutes because I couldn't see the temp. Seller said he only ran it 3 miles before taking the starter out to fix a leak in the remote oil connections and never put it back together. Most of the intake and carb bolts were only hand-tight. Maybe he took the heads and sold them on eBay or something...

I took off the intake (repainted it) and changed out the oil. It all goes back together tonight, so we'll see how she runs. I'll let you know. Thanks for the advice!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Saxman

Well, being new to SBC's, I did not know anything about Vortec heads, so he had me there. Even after I got the car home, he sent me the link to the Summit website pointing to the 330hp Crate. He advertised the car here: http://www.cardomain.com/ride/2389944 - so it is obvious that he claims the crate engine was 330hp. Summit doesn't have any other 330hp crate engine.

The guy's business is out of his back yard, so I doubt he does a lot of business - especially doing this kind of thing.

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I mis-understood.
I thought this was a ligit business.
In other words you bought a used engine off some guy out of his backyard.
Now we are getting somewhere.

Am I putting too many zeros in the asking price? I see 5 zeros which would be $50,000.00. Tell me he had too many zeros in there please and that the price was really $ 5000.00.


Don

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Itoldyouso

Am I putting too many zeros in the asking price? I see 5 zeros which would be $50,000.00. Tell me he had too many zeros in there please and that the price was really $ 5000.00.


Don

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Even at $5,000 this seems to much.:cool:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Itoldyouso

Am I putting too many zeros in the asking price? I see 5 zeros which would be $50,000.00. Tell me he had too many zeros in there please and that the price was really $ 5000.00.Don

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Yeah, but I talked him down from $50,000k to $39,000k. DId I get a good deal at $39,000? :)

OK - actually, I got the entire car for $3k. So, I talked him down $47,000 - and I guess that's why he stiffed me on the engine! Here, I thought I got the car for the cost of the crate engine, but I was wrong. I got it for the cost of two LM1's. Still a good deal considering everything underneath is powder coated or Por-15'd. He did all the busy work for me -- and bought the V8 conversion ($2k) to boot.

Still, it would have been nice to have 330hp.

Ok, that's better. You didn't get hurt at all at that price. Maybe you didn't get all the engine you were promised, but overall the price was fair. Can't expect too much for that kind of money these days.

Fix the bugs and enjoy it.

Don