Thread: 350 stalls when put in gear

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It has a brand new electric Holley Blue and works fine. Steve pulled the timing cover off and said the bottom gear has different marks and isn't sure how to align them. The top gear has the round indentation but the bottom gear does not have a similar mark. Now we are trying to find someone that knows how to align them.
I agree with you guys about making more problems than we began with but what the heck do I know. I am resigned to the fact that the 54 is grounded till next year, maybe by then the engine fairy will drop down and drop in a new crate motor!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
One thing after another.
JoAnne

Originally Posted by LowJo

The top gear has the round indentation but the bottom gear does not have a similar mark. Now we are trying to find someone that knows how to align them.

K, the cam gear mark should be facing down and the crank gear should be facing straight up. In other words, they should be facing towards each other. The crank gear will probably have three different marks on three different teeth. One mark is for neutral cam timing, another is for 4 degrees advance cam timing and another is for 4 degrees retarded cam timing. This timing has nothing to do with ignition timing, but it only relates to the valves opening in relationship with the pistons position. Some gears have an "A" on a tooth for advance, a "R" on a tooth for retarded, and a "O" for straight up timing. If any of the teeth with the marks line up with the cam gear mark, it should run fine. Go onto something else. I would still check fuel pressure even tho it is a new pump. Maybe at idle if the alternator isn't charging fully, the pump stalls.

JoAnne, I have been lurking on this thread, unable to uncover your problem. I have given it some thought and will offer this paper to you which I wrote some time back. It wouldn't have to be much of a leak to shut the motor down in my opinion. I've experienced a warped manifold before. http://www.streetmachinesoftablerock...opic.php?t=350

Well we ruled out the cam. Steve replaced the single gear with a double. They both lined up perfectly therefor saying to him that the cam was OK in the first place. Now he is gonna check lifters, pushrods and what he can before deciding to pull the engine again. There are two problems here, the first is the diesel sound and slight knocking when the engine is running. That has been there from day 1 when we first fired it. We just figured with a new rebuild, it would work it's way out. Well that wasn't the case. The cam was OK when Steve checked it before buttoning up the engine and running it. The only problem, except for the slight knock or diesel sound, was the engine would die when we would put it in gear. Steve and some of the "guys" thought maybe the torque converter was locking up on the 700 R4 so he pulled the engine and put on a 350. Hooked everything back up and took it for a 15 mile drive, the car shifted great but we noticed that the alternator wasn't charging the battery. So a day or so later I drove it about a mile away from home and sat at a cruise-in. Right after we got there someone asked me to fire up my new stereo system and when I went to start the car, it was dead. We jumped it and ran it for a few and then shut it off. When I left then to go home, it started up OK but my headlights were very dim. Knowing that the damn alternator may be bad, I drove it home and as I put it into reverse to back into the driveway, it died.This time it was an electrical stall. The following morning Steve took the alternator off and put a new one on and immediately it began charging the battery so we let it run for quite awhile. Then when Steve got in it to drive it awhile, upon putting it in gear, it died. He refired and tried again and the same thing. This is what the car was doing when the guys thought the torque converter was locking up with the first tranny. It isn't possible with the 350 so we ruled that out. He tinkered with the timing, idle ,etc. most of the day yesterday with the same results. This morning he started it up again and while it was cold, it would shift into gear with a higher idle but the minute it got warm, the dying problem was back.
So there you have it, I personally don't think the 2 problems are related but Steve does. The dieseling sound has never gone away even after adjusting the valves. This was everyones answer to the knocking diesel sound. It is still there and more prominant when it is cold. I have tried to explain the issues as best as I can but maybe I am not communicating well.
THANKS EVERYONE for your input I still am considering selling it. I was much happier with the 235.
JoAnne

Richard, without reading the paper, I assume you're speaking of a vacuum leak. Joanne, listen to this man...As I read thru your post, I would almost bet my life that there is a vacuum leak somewhere. This is exactly what they do, and it's also why they're so hard to find. It could be leaking on the bottom side of the intake, and you would never find it. I seriously doubt it's a cam timing issue...the cam would have to be wayyyyyy out for it to do that. Who rebuilt this engine? Did you guys do it, or did you buy it that way. If you have the 3 position crank gear, you should use the 0 mark lined up with the cam gear. this is assuming you have it on the correct keyway (mine has three) But if it ran before, like the others say, it's not the cam. Dont get discouraged, these things take time, and they're usually a very simple problem. And next time, here's a little time saver for you (or others) Instead of pulling whole front of the engine apart just to check your cam orientation, pull the intake. Rotate the engine to TDC on the overlap stroke (not compression) on #1 cylinder. Measure from the top of the intake lifter to the top of the lifter boss. Use a machinist rule. You should have about .030 more on the intake than you do on the exhaust. If that's the case, your cam is in correctly. Simple! Good luck, I really think it's vacuum. But I've been wrong before. Please make sure you fill us in. John

JoAnne, you didnt answer my question about who built the engine. Was this something you guys did yourself, or did a shop or a friend do it for you? I wish I could understand the part about 'dieseling' sound...I know what that should sound like, but I cant relate it to a chevy engine. Do you mean a rattling sound? Knocking? Pinging? This is the part that concerns me. And how are you positive you dont have a vacuum leak? I still think it might be the problem, at least with the stalling part.

The engine came out of a Camaro and Steve installed new lifters, etc. He did not however install a new cam. He basically took the entire engine apart and re-done it.
Right now he has the intake off and is working on the valves. He discovered the lifters were too tight and the plungers inside several were pushed down past the C clip. All the pushrods were OK and he is checking the lifters to see if any are dished. So far none are.
He told me to write that he is installing a new intake manifold because he wasn't sure about it sealing and would rather use a new one to be sure.
He is convinced that the valves were hte cause of the "dieseling" or rattling noise we were hearing. I wish I could explain the noise but it is impossible. When the car was cold and at idle, it sounded like a diesel engine. When warm, you could hear a faint knocking or rattling and it seemed to be coming from the passenger rear side of the engine. That is where he found the pushrods way oast the C clip. God I hope I am saying that right, I keep running out to the garage and taking notes.
If this corrects the rattling, then it is his hope that a new intake properly sealed will hopefully rule out any vacuum leaks there.
God guys, I hope I am stating this right, if not someone having this problem too someday will be horribly confused reading this thread.
I will keep you abreast of the progress.
Thanks again for all the help.
JoAnne

OK, the noise is making a little more sense to me now. Dont worry, you're explaining it as well as anyone could. Im probably not gonna make any friends here, and I'll apologize now...but why in the world would someone replace the lifters without replacing the cam? They wear together, and to do one without the other is just asking for trouble. And the lifters being tight in the bore is bad news. If they dont spin freely in the bores, there are problems right from the get go...and the problems start right away, not later on...I mean like seconds into the start-up. You cant tell if a lifter is dished by looking at it...I mean, you can if it's bad enough, but it can still be no good, and you'll never tell by sight. Always, always do cam and lifters together...they say you can use new lifters with an old cam, but I personally have not had good luck doing that. For the cost of a cam, around 100 bucks, it's not worth the risk. When you weigh that cost against having to pull the engine back apart because of all the chewed up metal floating around and ruining all the bearings and your hard work, it's a pretty cheap deal. Good luck on your findings, maybe it wont be too bad. And good deal on re-doing the intake, I think that might be your problem with the stalling. Keep us posted, and again, Im sorry if I offended you or your husband. That wasnt my intent.

Cam looks good Steve said, we would have to pull the engine to get the cam out completely. The way we had to modify the the whole engine bay and firewall to get that small block in there, it is a nightmare to get it out again. He checked the cam while turning the engine and looking down the holes, said there is very little wear maybe 5,000 of an inch. Some of the lifters won't depress so he is gonna put in a new set tomorrow, maybe cause they are full of fluid but to ba on the safe side, he is gonna replace them.
The intake manifold had a weld somewhere deep inside one of the two top ports and he wasn't sure why cause the manifold was a swap meet find anyway. He looked it over when he bought it but the weld was way inside so he isn't gonna fool with it.
He suspects that the couple lifters that were pushed past the C clamps might be the culprit to the rattling. None of the lifters had any damage to their surface what so ever. With the exception of a couple that would not depress inside.
Thanks Johnny

OK then....Hope you find that both of those fixes will get you going again. Make sure those new lifters spin in the bores with no drag whatsoever. Lots of lube, and use a bottle of GM Engine Oil Supplement during break-in...that's the critical part. Good luck!

Didn't we have a thread just recently where somebody bought lifters at autozone and got 2 different kinds of lifters. Maybe the ones that are clacking are solids.

Use a pushrod to push the plunger down in all the new lifters that you are buying and make sure that they are hydraulics. Then set the preload according to these instructions from Crane....

Adjusting Hydraulic Lifters for Proper Preload
In order to adjust the preload the lifter must be properly located on the base circle or ?Heel? of the lobe. At this position the valve is closed and there is no lift taking place. You will need to watch the movement of the valves to determine which lifter is properly positioned for adjusting.

1. Remove the valve covers, and pick a cylinder you are going to set the preload on.

2. Hand rotate the engine in its normal direction of rotation and watch the exhaust valve on that particular cylinder. When the exhaust valve begins to open, stop and adjust that cylinder?s intake rocker arm. (Why? Because when the exhaust valve is just beginning to open, the intake lifter will be on the base circle of the lobe, the correct position for adjusting the intake.)

3. Back off the intake rocker arm adjuster and remove any tension from the pushrod. Wait a minute or two for that hydraulic lifter to return to a neutral position. The spring inside the lifter will move the pushrod seat up against the retaining lock if you give it time to do so. (If you are installing brand new lifters they will be in the neutral position when they come in the box.)

4. Now spin the intake pushrod with your fingers while tightening down the rocker arm. When you feel a slight resistance to the turning of the pushrod, you are at ?Zero Lash?. Turn the adjusting nut down one half to one full turn from that point. Lock the adjuster into position. The intake is now adjusted properly.

5. Continue to hand turn the engine, watching that same intake. It will go to full open and then begin to close. When it is almost closed, stop and adjust the exhaust rocker arm on that particular cylinder. (Again, when we see the intake almost closed, we are sure that exhaust lifter is on the base circle of the lobe.) Loosen the exhaust rocker arm and follow the same procedure described before in steps 3 and 4 to adjust this rocker arm.

6. Both valves on this cylinder are now adjusted, and you can move on to your next cylinder and follow the same procedure again.

Sounds good to me Denny

Originally Posted by techinspector1

Sounds good to me Denny

Me too. I fully support that method. When I tried teaching my son how to set lifters, he was able to rotate the push rods long after contact was made with the lifter and rocker. He went several rotations after contact. (from the sounds of how deep the push rods are into LowJo's lifters, seems they did the same thing. That would also explain the rattling noise, the valves are hitting the pistons.) I had to teach him how to be real ginger/soft to the touch. I made him giggle the push rod till the rocker became firm. Then he tightened the rocker adjusting nut an additional 1/4 turn- 1/2 turn.

That is some really great advise guys, I appreciate it so much. "Clatter" is a perfect word to describe what we were hearing. I will make sure Steve reads this BEFORE he installs the new lifters. Now if we can only firgure out how to keep the damn thing running when we drop it into gear! Maybe the intake was the problem there, I will keep you posted.
Thank you again
JoAnne

If your lifters were set too tight, then they would never have been closed one hundred precent. This might have been the cause of the engine stalling when dropped into gear.