Need My Head(s) Examined

:whacked:
Here goes...I've got a MkIV 454, with a 770 Holley Avenger sitting on a Weiand Stealth dual plane manifold, 9.5:1 CR, Voodoo 213/219 @.050 (256/262 adv), .515/.530 lift, 112LS, 6272990 heads (2.19/1.88 valves, rect port), ceramic coated headers into 2.25 dual exhaust through a set of FM 40-series mufflers, HEI, ...all this is connected through a TH400 to 3.36 gears in the rear. The cars primary purpose will not be that of a daily driver (gas$$) but it will be street driven with an occasional trip to the track for fun.

I know this is not the best combo in the world and that I have some parts working against each other. Let me just say a few things about that...

1. I got a good deal on the heads
2. the exhaust is brand new, aluminized umm...steel? anyway, it's new and came with the car (for the previously installed SBC)
3. I know alot more now than I did when I started this project.
4. I have a tight budget
5. I have a tight budget
6. I have a set of peanut ports (14092360) that I almost installed in lieu of the RP's

My question is, how well do you think this will behave? Will it be a total dog? Will I be fouling plugs? Street manners? Should I have used the peanuts?Exhaust big enough for decent performance? What changes would you suggest in terms of increasing performance without having to tear the whole motor apart? Any input is appreciated....I am basically wondering if this combo will perform respectable enough to give me some braggin rights and drive for awhile until I can find a decent set of oval ports (plus time and more $$) to put on there. This is my first real build project and turning back is not really an option at this point (I have a kid on the way...need to finish pronto). What do you all think? Has anyone ever thrown together a "bad" combo and been relatively happy with the performance?

It's a real nice looking motor anyway......Does that boost my hp? **) :LOL:

-cayne

What's your problem? That car is gonna run good. It may not operate at it's full potential, but what does? You're gonna have a blast driving it. Fouling plugs? Only after you wear it out for a couple years. Street manners? Don't sweat it, it is a big toy. Exhaust big enough? Hell yes!! It ain't a school bus. What I'm trying to say is have fun with it. It is the best one you've ever built. When it breaks, call me; I will be glad to tow it home behind my big ol' hooptie.

Cayne -

I can't claim to know much about what I'm talking about... and as 65ny stated above, the car will probably be drivable if not pretty fun. I would say there are some fairly glaring mismatches among the rect heads, small exhaust, and tall rear gear... I'm not sure how much pain any of this will cause. I don't know a whole lot about cam-shafts but it seems this one is ground more for low end torque which compliments the size of your exhaust and the rear gear. I would probably lean toward oval port heads to bring everything in line for good lower rev combo, the peanuts might overdo it.

The other route would be keep the heads, go bigger on the exhaust (at least 2.5" probably 3" better) and a shorter gear in the rear (maybe 3.80:1+) but I don't think that cam is meant so much for the high end.

I'm fairly new to this stuff so I may be off base a bit... there are some really sharp BBC guys on here that will probably chime in with more reliable info.

At any rate, have fun!

Chris

BTW: My combo is not well matched either with stock oval heads, short duration hydraulic cam, big headers/exhaust (2" into 3") and too-short gear 4.56:1 with 29" tire but it is still a lot of fun and a good bracket racer except I'm running out of gear at the traps.... I'll be making some changes now that the season is over.

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Originally Posted by skids72

Cayne -

I can't claim to know much about what I'm talking about... and as 65ny stated above, the car will probably be drivable if not pretty fun. I would say there are some fairly glaring mismatches among the rect heads, small exhaust, and tall rear gear... I'm not sure how much pain any of this will cause. I don't know a whole lot about cam-shafts but it seems this one is ground more for low end torque which compliments the size of your exhaust and the rear gear. I would probably lean toward oval port heads to bring everything in line for good lower rev combo, the peanuts might overdo it.

The other route would be keep the heads, go bigger on the exhaust (at least 2.5" probably 3" better) and a shorter gear in the rear (maybe 3.80:1+) but I don't think that cam is meant so much for the high end.

I'm fairly new to this stuff so I may be off base a bit... there are some really sharp BBC guys on here that will probably chime in with more reliable info.

At any rate, have fun!

Chris

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Thanks for the input skids. Being on a budget, I toyed with the idea of throwing those peanut ports on there for quite some time and asked several people their opinions. Generally speaking...people either loved them or hated them. My biggest fear was running out of air around 4000rpm but I could not find a set of good ovals for a decent price so when I came across the rectangular ports I snagged them thinking I could resell them if I decided not to use them. After SEVERAL WEEKS of trying to make up my mind, I finally decided to sacrifice some low end torque and go with the 990's. You offer two very good future options and I totally agree with you.

Funny thing is...I spent weeks and weeks reading everything I good about building engines and the "marriage of parts" and I think that I have thrown it all out the window. I am still curious as to what I can expect in terms of problems with this setup. I have heard that (bad) setups can be a bear to tune and will generally be a pain to keep running and so I am hoping that is not so. Hopefully I will get some more insight from other members so I can see what the general consensus is. :(

I think the main problem you might run into is not so good throttle response/off-idle performance. A higher rev torque converter (3000+?) will help with that. Add a shorter gear will help more.

Of course, why not put it together and see how it goes? You may be quite content with it as it is...

You'll get some better advice if Pat McCarthy shows up....

Good luck,

Chris

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Funny thing is...I spent weeks and weeks reading everything I good about building engines and the "marriage of parts" and I think that I have thrown it all out the window.

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I don't think you've tossed it all out. For example, those heads were used on 425 HP 454 CID big blocks in '71, and those cars certainly didn't have 3" exhausts or 3000 stall converters. And, the current 425HP 454 uses a little shorer cam (211/230 - 510/540). So what if it ain't perfect. It isn't a mile off, in my opinion - but I'll defer on the finer details to Pat or Johnny 0.

Thanks, Henry, for the sanity check... as I mentioned earlier, I barely know what I'm talking about... if at all :) Need you experienced guys to keep me honest!

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Originally Posted by skids72

Of course, why not put it together and see how it goes? You may be quite content with it as it is...

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I am almost there... (hopefully a picture will post here)...

Cool . . . so quit second guessing, finish it off - then go out, kick ass and take names.

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Originally Posted by Henry Rifle

I don't think you've tossed it all out. For example, those heads were used on 425 HP 454 CID big blocks in '71, and those cars certainly didn't have 3" exhausts or 3000 stall converters. And, the current 425HP 454 uses a little shorer cam (211/230 - 510/540). So what if it ain't perfect. It isn't a mile off, in my opinion - but I'll defer on the finer details to Pat or Johnny 0.

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I dont have 11:1 cr though but I see your point Henry.. I did not know that about the newer 454HO. Dont those use the Rect-ports also?. So nobody seems to think that I will have any serious repercussions other than not realizing the full potential of the motor?... Based on the combo, is there any special tuning I should consider like running it a little leaner/richer, or more advanced/retarded or should one follow the same guidelines as with any other motor? I am trying to get this thing fired up in the next few weeks and am trying to avoid any surprizes.

:cool: :cool: Nice lookin' motor! **)

Thanks Skids !...not bad for my first I think...Off topic, but What do you think about my accessories set-up (minus the wire nuts...those are temporary) ? It's kind of odd ...gives it umm...character ? :rolleyes:

Accessories look great. :toocool: I'm assuming that's power steering at the bottom of the photo? Looks very clean compared to the 2 small v-belts I'm running (on a warped water pump pulley :eek:) Very nice and I love the bowtie orange valve covers.

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Dont those use the Rect-ports also?.

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Yep. They sure do.

Cayne, you worry too much. :whacked: Take your meds, when the voices go away, you will feel much better.:D

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Originally Posted by 65ny

Cayne, you worry too much. :whacked: Take your meds, when the voices go away, you will feel much better.:D

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I think, subconciously, that I am worried about your mopar outperforming my bowtie :eek: (especially with your shiny new carburator)
Nah...must be something else because we know THAT could never happen! :LOL:
I am feeling better now. I would feel even better if I could get Pat's .02 although he probably has never assembled a "bad" combo such as mine...right Pat?? Maybe back in his early days... :LOL: :LOL: :D kidding...!

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Originally Posted by 65cayne

:whacked:
Here goes...I've got a MkIV 454, with a 770 Holley Avenger sitting on a Weiand Stealth dual plane manifold, 9.5:1 CR, Voodoo 213/219 @.050 (256/262 adv), .515/.530 lift, 112LS, 6272990 heads (2.19/1.88 valves, rect port), ceramic coated headers into 2.25 dual exhaust through a set of FM 40-series mufflers, HEI, ...all this is connected through a TH400 to 3.36 gears in the rear. The cars primary purpose will not be that of a daily driver (gas$$) but it will be street driven with an occasional trip to the track for fun.

I know this is not the best combo in the world and that I have some parts working against each other. Let me just say a few things about that...

1. I got a good deal on the heads
2. the exhaust is brand new, aluminized umm...steel? anyway, it's new and came with the car (for the previously installed SBC)
3. I know alot more now than I did when I started this project.
4. I have a tight budget
5. I have a tight budget
6. I have a set of peanut ports (14092360) that I almost installed in lieu of the RP's

My question is, how well do you think this will behave? Will it be a total dog? Will I be fouling plugs? Street manners? Should I have used the peanuts?Exhaust big enough for decent performance? What changes would you suggest in terms of increasing performance without having to tear the whole motor apart? Any input is appreciated....I am basically wondering if this combo will perform respectable enough to give me some braggin rights and drive for awhile until I can find a decent set of oval ports (plus time and more $$) to put on there. This is my first real build project and turning back is not really an option at this point (I have a kid on the way...need to finish pronto). What do you all think? Has anyone ever thrown together a "bad" combo and been relatively happy with the performance?

It's a real nice looking motor anyway......Does that boost my hp? **) :LOL:

-cayne

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I.M.O.,the heads are a little large.
I would think it would run better with say a set of 781's with the 2.19/1.88 valves,but don't go selling what you have.
Other than the heads everthing looks good to me.

Are you fairly certain on the c/r?? Sounds pretty good to me. I ran my 291 rect. heads (same size runners, but closed chambers) on my 454 several years ago..my cam was a little bigger, but I can assure you it was not a dog because of the heads...yes, they are a little on the big side, especially with the rest of your combo, but I think they should work out very nicely! You must have a domed piston if you're at 9.5/1, seeing as the 990's are supposed to be 118cc. I think I would just run it and dont worry. Yes, a gear change would compliment the heads, as would a converter and larger exhaust...but one thing at a time!! All that can come over time. Im still running my 291's on my current 505, and they are awesome. Good luck with it. John

Thanks for the comments Erik, John. Just curious, what compression are you running with your 51 extra cubes John?
My pistons were advertized with (approx) 10.32:1cr with 106.9cc head (btw: yes, they are domed). I took those figures to determine the total combustion volume and swept volume. Then it was a simple ratio to calculate the compression for my 118c heads. The approximate value was about 9.47:1 if I remember right.

I get 10.35:1, but close enough.

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Originally Posted by Henry Rifle

I get 10.35:1, but close enough.

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What do you get 10.35:1 for? My pistons? Or on your own engine?:confused:

I had some time to kill at lunch...
:confused:
for a 454cid motor, you get 56.75cid/cyl = 930cc/cyl = swept volume (SV)
So in this instance, to determine CR, we have:

CR = [SV + (total combustion space)]/(total combustion space)

where: (total combustion space) = volume of the combustion chamber (call it CC) plus other volume (+/- depending on dishes or domes, gasket thickness, etc...call it X)

CR = [SV + (CC + X)]/(CC + X)

tickle the formula a little and you get:
X = [SV/(CR-1)]-CC

So based on a 454cid and the information provided with my pistons
X = (-7.1)

Now using my values... SV=930, CC=118, and X=(-7.1)...I get a CR of 9.39/1 :whacked: If I have screwed up somewhere...jump on it and let me know. All input is welcome!

Are you some kind of engineer or something??:confused: My head hurts from reading that.:whacked:

O.K., when you figure c.r. on a cylinder with a domed piston, you have to deduct the volume of the dome from the volume of the cylinder because that dome volume will not fill up with mixture. All other volumes are figured the conventional way, including complete chamber volume, deck height volume and gasket volume. Now, when going back the other way and compressing the volume you have drawn in, you have to deduct the dome volume from the chamber volume. The result of this is as follows:

By back-figuring, I have determined that the dome is worth 22 cc's. If this is a 0.030" over 454, then the bore and stroke are 4.280" X 4.000", resulting in a cylinder volume of 943 cc's. On the intake stroke, we will deduct the dome, so the cylinder will be ingesting 921 cc's. Not knowing whether or not you have decked the block, I assumed not and allowed a deck of 0.030", which computes to 7 cc's. I allowed a gasket diameter of 4.300" and a thickness of 0.040" which computes to 9.5 cc's.

Now, adding all the incoming mixture, 921, 7, 9.5 and 118, we get 1,055.5 cc's. Now we'll deduct the dome volume from the chamber and compute the chamber at 96 cc's. So the squeezed mixture will be 7, 9.5 and 96 which totals 112.5 cc's. Now, dividing 1,055.5 by 112.5 reveals a static compression ratio of 9.382:1

Now cayne, if you will bless us with the intake closing point of the camshaft, we'll be able to figure the dynamic compression ratio of the motor and maybe get a handle on the type of fuel you'll be able to use. :)

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Originally Posted by techinspector1

O.K., when you figure c.r. on a cylinder with a domed piston, you have to deduct the volume of the dome from the volume of the cylinder because that dome volume will not fill up with mixture.

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I compensated for the dome when I figured the total combustion volume (piston @ TDC).
I compared your numbers with mine (my answer was actually 9.389, very close to yours, which I rounded to 9.4), and it seems that you did the same thing that I did, only in a more "technical" way (hence, your name I guess..:LOL: ). Sorry, I can be a lame joker somtimes...no offense intended.
Anyhow...my cam specs are as follow:

213/219@.050
256/262 adv dur
.515/.530 lift
112 LS

I have a feeling that dymanic compression is much more complicated. Is there some type of "approximation" or do you have to wear out a pencil and 20 sheets of paper?

I just re-read what you requested....intake CLOSING pont and realized that I did not provide that for you (I dont think)... my cam card says the following:

IO @ -1.5 btdc
IC @ 34.5 abdc
EO @ 45.5 bbdc
EC @ -6.5 atdc

The intake centerline (??) is 108 degs. (says "the above centerline will make this cam 4 degs advanced") I have no idea what all this means. It looks like my exhaust valve is closed before my intake even starts to open. I must be misinterpreting it because I always thought there was some overlap there.

The numbers look screwy because the cam grinder is giving you numbers based on a tappet lift of 0.050". They would look very much different if the figures were based off the tappet just beginning to lift off the base circle of the lobe, or even at advertised lift figures which are usually based off tappet lift of 0.006".

Anyway, this will be the easiest calculations you will have to do, just add 15 degrees to the IC and plug them into the electronic calculator provided by KB........
http://kb-silvolite.com/calc.php?action=comp2

Compression ratio-9.382
Stroke-4.000
Rod Length- 6.135
Cam timing 49.5

The result is 8.314:1

Most of us shoot for a figure between 8.00 and 8.25 for a street motor on pump gas, but I wouldn't think 8.314 would be out of line too much. You may have to run a little better grade of fuel than 87 regular, but it should be ok. If it has a little too much cylinder pressure, you can bleed some of it off by retarding the camshaft in relation to the crank.

I don't know if you understand, so I'll explain. On the intake stroke, the piston reaches bottom dead center and starts back up in the bore to compress the mixture so the plug can fire it. The intake valve is still open as the piston reaches bottom and does not close until the piston is headed back up in the bore. The reason for this is that the slug of mixture that is being drawn in has inertia and will continue to jam itself into the cylinder even though the piston is coming back up. Now, this is a juggling act and if the valve remains open too long, the piston will push some of the fresh mixture back out past the valve seat and up into the intake port. When this happens with a really radical cam, you can see the cloud of foggy mixture hovering above the open carburetor top. This plays hell with the metering in the carb because it isn't getting a clean vacuum signal from the cylinder, so the motor tends to idle erratically, load up and generally just be a pain in the butt. That's where you get the rumpety-rump idle from. It's just the sound of the motor being inefficient at low rpm's.

Anyway, this closing point can be altered to make the motor do what you want it to to a certain degree. For instance, if your motor tends to rattle on pump gas, that means that the dynamic compression ratio is too high and the motor is making too much cylinder pressure. To lower the pressure, you could leave the intake valve open a little longer and trap less of the mixture. For instance, retarding the cam by 4 degrees from its present position would put the intake closing point at 53.5 degrees after bottom dead center and would change the DCR to 8.133

I'm going to continue this conversation by asking you if you know the on-seat and full-lift pressure of your valve springs. I've seen a bunch of brand new cams wiped out by starting up a new motor with stiff springs. Let's get this sorted out before you do your initial startup.

We need to address the proper procedure for startup too, if you don't know.

Have you adjusted your valves and you POSITIVELY know they are correct?

I dont know about the springs. Heads are basically a clean swap from another motor (the guy bought some aluminum heads and had no use for these). So I just bolted them on there after cleaning them real good. I understand the terms but I dont know what the values are. I hope this wont be a problem :eek:

I adjusted the valves by first positioning the motor (i.e. watch for exhaust valve open, adjust intake...dont recall precisely how to explain it but that is one thing that I want to check again before intial fire up) and then tightening rocker until I feel the resistance and then putting another 1/2 to 3/4 of a turn on it.
Suffice it to say that I am not POSITIVE that they are correct and I would much rather adjust them again to be sure.
My plan, when I am done with all of the nit-noid stuff I need to do to finish this installation, is to prime the oil system, prime the carb, start it on the first try, set the timing (not sure to what degree), set the carb (if necessary??...brand new out of box), and rev it up to 2500 or so for about 30 minutes to break in the cam. That is my plan and I am not necessarily "sticking to it" because I could be wrong. That's why I am here. :3dSMILE:

btw: does dynamic CR change with RPM? I am guessing yes?

Typo for me. I did a quick approximation and got 9.35 (not 10.35, as I typed.)

Since the only thing changing is the head volume, I did a quick approximation this way:

CR = (106.9 x 10.32)/118 = 9.35. Not perfect, but very close.

Cayne...I should be right at or a hair below 10/1. I had the heads milled to 100cc's...and I am '0' decked. John

Since these are the big boy "gofaster" heads, I'd bet a nickel they have heavy springs installed. What you want for initial break-in is stock single springs less dampers. I used to keep a worn out set on the shelf just for break-in. Do you have shop air for holding the valves in place while you remove the springs and replace them with stocker units?

Your valve adjustment procedure will result in the valves being too tight. With your socket on the crank bolt at the harmonic damper, turn the crank until the intake valve on #1 cylinder is fully depressed (valve fully open). Turn the crank one full turn to put the lifter directly on the heel of the cam lobe and loosen the nut on the intake rocker until the rocker is loose. Grasp the pushrod with your thumb and forefinger and wiggle it up and down against the lifter cup and rocker arm socket while you tighten the nut. DO THIS VERY LIGHTLY SO AS NOT TO COMPRESS THE SPRING INSIDE THE LIFTER. All you want to do is adjust the nut until the play is out of the pushrod. Now tighten the nut another 1/2 turn. Turn the crank 1/4 turn and do #8 intake, then another 1/4 turn and do #4 and so on through the firing order of 1-8-4-3-6-5-7-2. Then go back to #1 cylinder and do the exhaust valve, then 1/4 turn and do #8, etc., etc. There are other methods to do this but this is my way and it's bulletproof. It takes a little longer, but you can be sure that it is right when you're through.

For the initial break-in, you should have everything ready to run. Ignition timing set close, carb full of fuel, full battery charge, temp gauge and oil pressure gauge hooked up, valves adjusted. If you have to grind more than 2 seconds on the starter....STOP.....and find out why it isn't cranking. Add a bottle of GM Engine Oil Supplement to the oil before fire-up. You can find it at any GM dealer. After the 20-30 minute run, drop the oil and filter and replace with fresh oil and filter and another bottle of EOS. Use a brand name racing oil instead of what you're used to using. The oil companies have begun to delete zinc and other high pressure lubes from engine oils due to pressure being brought to bear by OEM car makers. They say the zinc clogs up their catalytic converters and costs them warranty replacements. So, now it is up to us hot rodders to make sure we have the proper chemicals in our oils to protect our expensive investments.

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Originally Posted by techinspector1

Do you have shop air for holding the valves in place while you remove the springs and replace them with stocker units? ...

Your valve adjustment procedure will result in the valves being too tight...

...For the initial break-in, you should have everything ready to run. Ignition timing set close, carb full of fuel, full battery charge, temp gauge and oil pressure gauge hooked up, valves adjusted. If you have to grind more than 2 seconds on the starter....STOP.....and find out why it isn't cranking. ...

...it is up to us hot rodders to make sure we have the proper chemicals in our oils to protect our expensive investments.

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Richard, Thanks for the info. I've been busy the last few days with domestic priorities **)
1. I do not have shop air. Is there any way to tell what kind of springs I currently have? I think (have to check again) that I have an inner and an outer spring on each valve....?
2. I will re-adjust the valves once I settle the issue with the springs.
3. How would I get the timing "close" without firing it?
4. You saying my engine ought to start within two seconds of hitting the key? Sounds optimistic but I'll go with that.
5. What type of oil would you recommend? Can I run normal oil after the break-in period?
I appreciate all your help. It pays to get input from others who have already been down this road several times. Einstein called it "standing on the shoulders of giants"...

O.K., here's what I would do if I were in your position. We're gonna kill a couple of birds with one stone. Get a piston stop either from www.summitracing.com like this http://store.summitracing.com/partde...5&autoview=sku
or maybe there is a speed shop locally in OKC that would have one on the shelf. The better ones, like this Crane unit, have a hole drilled through the tickler rod that lets air escape while you are turning the crank. You'll also want to measure the diameter of the outer ring on the harmonic damper and order a timing tape http://store.summitracing.com/egnsea...0+115&x=34&y=6
What we are going to do is find exact top dead center on #1 cylinder so that you will not have any timing issues down the road. These come with instructions, but if you don't understand, ask here. We will make sure that the top dead center mark on your harmonic damper ring and the coinciding mark on your timing tab are at the right place to time the motor with a light. Sometimes, the rubber disintegrates between the inner hub and the outer ring and the ring slips, resulting in an erroneous mark for top dead center at #1. What we're going to do is remove all the spark plugs to make the motor easy to turn over. Use a solvent to clean all the dirt and grease off the surface of the harmonic damper outer ring. Now, affix a piece of masking tape 4 to 5 inches long to the ring, with the middle of the tape approximately at the TDC groove in the ring. Turn the motor over by hand with a socket on the damper retaining bolt and using a long cheater bar to make it easy. Turn the motor clockwise until the TDC groove in the damper ring is maybe 1 1/2 to 2 inches to the right of your timing pointer. (The piston has passed TDC and is headed down the bore on its intake stroke). Screw the outer part of your piston stop device into the spark plug hole and snug it down so it won't move. Now, thread the inner rod into the outer part until the rod just comes into contact with the piston crown. Make a mark with a Sharpie on the masking tape where the timing cover pointer is pointing. Now, turn the crank clockwise until the piston is coming back up and comes into contact with the inner piston stop rod again. Make another mark on the masking tape at the timing cover pointer. Now, divide this distance in half with a compass divider or measure it with your 6" dial caliper and you have exact TDC halfway between the two Sharpie marks. If TDC does happen to coincide with the groove in the damper ring, it is by the sheerest of coincidences and you should go out immediately and buy a lottery ticket. The halfway mark is where you will affix your timing tape top dead center mark. Now, if the true mark is too far off from the groove that was supposed to be TDC, then the outer ring has slipped in relation to the inner hub. You can time the motor properly now that you have found TDC, but be warned that the ring will probably continue to slip and at some point in the future, you will have to justify TDC again with the piston stop. The alternative is to have your damper rebuilt by these guys. They will make it like new for you for something like 50 bucks. They take it apart and press new elastomeric material between the hub and ring. www.damperdoctor.com

Now, see this thread and get yourself one of the spring compressors like Denny has shown in post #5 and post #12 (part number KD2078)
http://www.clubhotrod.com/forums/showthread.php?t=27043

You've got TDC marked on the damper ring, so bring the piston to TDC on the compression stroke. Choose a valve and give the retainer a little rap with a small hammer like Denny shows in the thread. Attach the spring compressor to either intake or exhaust valve and release the tension against the keepers so you can remove them with either a magnet or needle nose pliers. Once the keepers are out, the rest of the spring and retainer will come apart easily. The valve will drop, but it can only go a far as the piston crown and will still have enough of the valve stem sticking out of the guide to grab onto for reassembly. Now, if you don't have snap gauges in your tool collection, make 2 length checkers from short pieces of clothes hanger wire or welding rod. You will have a friend assemble and hold together the retainer and keepers on the valve stem without the springs while you use the short pieces of wire to make them the proper length to show you the installed height of the outer and inner springs. If the outer spring just has a flat, spiral wound damper spring pressed inside it and there is no additional round wire third spring, then you will only need to find the installed height of the outer spring. Just keep cutting or grinding on the end of the wire until you can insert it straight up between the spring seat in the head and the bottom of the retainer where the other end of the spring rests. The retainer is stepped, so make sure which step you are measuring, the step for the outer (big) spring or for a smaller diameter inner spring. Now, take the spring(s) outer, inner, damper and all to the nearest automotive machine shop or speed shop and have them test the pressure for you. Take the wire(s) and cam card with you so he can measure the installed height by the wire(s), then the valve open dimension can be figured from the cam card that came with the cam. Once you know the pressures involved, call the cam grinder and ask them if you can break the cam in with these springs in place. If they tell you it is ok, then great, you have only had to remove and re-install one spring. If they say no, then you will have to change all of the springs to stocker type outers only, then break in the cam, then change all the springs back. Make sure the cam grinder puts his blessing on the springs for use after the cam is broken in.

Yeah, I know this sound like a lot of work, but if you take a few precautions like this, the job will be done right and it won't cost you too much money to do it right. If the springs are too stiff and you don't check them and you wipe out the cam and lifters on startup, then you still have to do all this plus a new cam and lifters plus you have to tear the motor down and clean the shrapnel out of it before you install your new.....and expensive.....cam and lifters. CHOICES, CHOICES. :LOL:

I hope I have better luck removing the valve springs than the guy in the other post :eek:
It will be a bit before I get to this Richard but I totally understand what you are saying so far. Thanks for the tool suggestions. I am always looking for excuses to buy more tools :D
I would say that this will take a few days as my car is on jacks (borrowed) and I need to finish some under-car work so I can remove/return jack stands, jack, engine hoist, etc... (It helps to borrow instead of buy when you have a small garage..). My wife is also hinting that she wants her side of the garage back seeing as how the weather is turning colder...Soon as I get that squared away I will pull a set of springs and report back with my findings.
BTW: what kind of findings am I looking for? Just seat pressure and full lift pressure?

OK, that is pretty much what I wanted to say. Go back and read the whole mess please.

To get the timing close, you will put #1 on about 10 to 12 degrees before TDC on the compression stroke (both valves closed). This should be easy to do with your timing tape installed on the damper ring. Now, take the cap off the distributor and make certain that the rotor is pointing to the terminal which feeds #1 plug wire. If it isn't, then either change the wires around to make it happen or remove the distributor and turn the distributor drive shaft with a long, large screwdriver until you can turn the rotor shaft in the distributor to make the rotor align with the #1 wire.

As far as oil, use the best racing oil you can find and add a bottle of Engine Oil Supplement, found at any GM parts department counter. It contains additional extreme pressure lubricants to protect the cam/lifter interface. Fire the motor and bring the r's up to no less than 2,500 for 20 minutes. The cam is fed lube by the splash method and as there is very little splash at lower rpm's, the r's must be up to lube it and the lifter faces. After the break-in, drop the oil and filter. Replace with fresh filter and oil and another bottle of EOS. Do some on the road driving, alternating between moderate power and letting the motor de-accelerate in gear, giving it a chance to oil up real well and carry away some heat from the rings and cylinder walls for the next 500 or so miles.

Well, hey, you've torched my brain, but if there is anything else, just ask. If I don't know, someone else on the board will know. We've got a lot of sharp people on here. :)

One last thing, I recommended the pieces of wire to check installed height. This was assuming that you don't have a set of snap gauges. If you have snap gauges, use 'em. This is the same set that I have in my toolbox.....http://www.sjdiscounttools.com/cen6554.html

Quote:

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Originally Posted by techinspector1

bumpbumpbump

OK, that is pretty much what I wanted to say. Go back and read the whole mess please.

To get the timing close, you will put #1 on about 10 to 12 degrees before TDC on the compression stroke (both valves closed). This should be easy to do with your timing tape installed on the damper ring. Now, take the cap off the distributor and make certain that the rotor is pointing to the terminal which feeds #1 plug wire. If it isn't, then either change the wires around to make it happen or remove the distributor and turn the distributor drive shaft with a long, large screwdriver until you can turn the rotor shaft in the distributor to make the rotor align with the #1 wire.

As far as oil, use the best racing oil you can find and add a bottle of Engine Oil Supplement, found at any GM parts department counter. It contains additional extreme pressure lubricants to protect the cam/lifter interface. Fire the motor and bring the r's up to no less than 2,500 for 20 minutes. The cam is fed lube by the splash method and as there is very little splash at lower rpm's, the r's must be up to lube it and the lifter faces. After the break-in, drop the oil and filter. Replace with fresh filter and oil and another bottle of EOS. Do some on the road driving, alternating between moderate power and letting the motor de-accelerate in gear, giving it a chance to oil up real well and carry away some heat from the rings and cylinder walls.

Well, hey, you've torched my brain, but if there is anything else, just ask. If I don't know, someone else on the board will know. We've got a lot of sharp people on here. :)

One last thing, I recommended the pieces of wire to check installed height. This was assuming that you don't have a set of snap gauges. If you have snap gauges, use 'em.

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Richard,is there any other additive that you know of that is as good as GM'S EOS?
I have had people ask me and I keep going back to it.

I don't know Erik. It's all I have used for the past several decades. CompCams has this out...http://www.compcams.com/technical/Ca...106-07/234.pdf and Crane has this.....99003-1....http://www.cranecams.com/index.php?s...s&lvl=2&prt=15
but I've never used either of them. I suspect that they would do as good of a job as EOS, but just never have tried them.

Thanks for the vote of confidence Denny, that gives us 2 products that we can count on.....:)