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I'v decided to 'tame' my rat rod as I want more of a driver so I think I will use a Chevy 350. Have access to one and a few parts I can put on it. Trans was bought to use behind a 460 and it is a T-18 long tail out of a 1987 Ford truck. I know that it can be made to fit with a few mods and a new bolt hole in the Chevy bellhousing, but what do I do with for a clutch?
Use a Chevy pressure plate and a Ford clutch disc and whichever throw out bearing works. Don't forget to check the pilot bearing
Ok, that makes sense. So like if I use an 11" clutch, I get an 11" ford clutch and a pressure plate for a 11" Chevy clutch. Novak adapters makes a conversion pilot bearing and if my thinking is right, the throwout bearing should be a Ford part for a truck w/ T-18 4spd
Yes, that sounds right and you'll have to fabricate your clutch linkage, but you probably already knew that. Good luck.
You may want to compare the throwout bearing that goes with that Chevy pressure plate to the Ford bearing. The throwout bearing fits around the tranny input shaft, but it rides on the pressure plate fingers, thus the critical dimension may be Chevy? Not sure, just typing while thinking about it, which could be dangerous....:HMMM::LOL:Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt167
Quote:
Originally Posted by rspears
Shouldn't be a problem, the main difference in the throw out bearing is how the clutch fork attaches
I could easily buy a whole slew of throwout bearings to get one that worked. They don't cost that much. As far as a clutch linkage, I was planning on a hydraulic clutch kit. Either a Novak adapters kit which includes a slave, hydraulic clutch fork and a mount or buy a Chevy-landcruiser bracket from Advance Adapters that puts a factory adjustable Toyota slave cylinder on a Chevy bellhousing and then I can buy an OEM or aftermarket hydraulic clutch fork and a slave at the parts store
I did have an idea tho. If I had a machinist drill a flywheel for a Ford pressure plate, can't I keep it all Ford except the pilot bearing?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt167
I'd go hydraulic and why would flywheel adapted to fit aFord pressure plate? That takes all of the fun out the expression you'll get from the local auto parts counter guy when you tell him you need a Chevy pressure plate and a Ford clutch disc :D
It will be hydraulic, whichever setup I use. Not going to even attempt to fabricate a mechanical linkage.. As for the look on the auto parts counter person's face. It won't work any more as he's used to it. He will get whatever I need, go thru the parts books to find something that will work.. In the past I have made it easier on him by looking up applications on rockauto or Napaonline to find what was needed, then going to him to order the stuff based on my findings. Makes it quicker.. Even his wife ( they own/ run the place togther, been open since 1948 ), tho she can't get everything I need, if I know what I'm looking for, she has no problems ordering parts for 10 different cars so I can put whatever it is I'm working on togther... I could go to Advance Auto and ask for a price on what I need to get a laugh.
I'm actually in the middle of doing a motor swap on a 1999 Subaru Legacy using a 1996 2.2L motor to replace the toasted 2.5L ( common swap and I got the car cheap ) He has no problem's ordering parts for both as long as I give him the right applications for which parts I'm ordering.
Matt, you might check the pressure plate offerings. Seems to me that the one I got for the 302 was dual mounts on the tabs - mounting tabs were wide, and there were two different mounting bolt patterns drilled. Not sure any are combo Chevy/Ford, but if I were making clutches I'd sure look at that option to reduce my inventory.
Good idea. I know some Hayes flywheels are drilled for Ford 3 finger clutches, so it might just work the other way.. I actually had thought about getting a Chevy clutch that would match the trans, but the trans comes up as having a 10 spline 1 1/16" input shaft, and the only GM part that matches that is one that goes to a 3.9L Diesel in the P-30 chassis which is the 4BT Cummins, so it won't work..
I'm really going to need a spread sheet to keep track of what parts I used so when I break it, I will know what to buy.
I just got a Bellhousing (P/N 3858403 ) off Ebay for $52 shipped. It is crack free and rings like a bell so it's good. Problem I'm having trouble understanding is, by Novaks description I have to drill and tap a new hole to match the Ford trans, and the other 3 holes will line up with a little work to the trans.. The bellhousing has thick castings where the bolt holes are and they are only about as big as the bolt holes are, and if I drill outside of those castings, it will be in thin aluminum.. Do I need a different bell or could I tap it, then use a stud and back it with a nut and a washer?
I would guess you need a different bell housing. Your main concern should be the pilot beg. and pilot shaft alignment. If some one told you this would work I'd be knocking on there door. Seems like a lot of work to me
It's actually information from Novak adapters. They sell bearing retainers that fit the Chevy bell and Chevy- Ford pilot bushings..Quote:
Originally Posted by cffisher
From Novak's description
"Transmission Front Face Bolt Holes
On the front face 1966 and newer Ford four-speed transmissions, the upper two mounting holes are each about 1/4 of a bolt hole off from the upper two holes in a GM bellhousing. If the holes in the Ford transmission ears are filed to be slightly elongated, they will match up with their mountings to the GM bellhousing. It may be recommended at this point that you test fit the transmission to the detached bellhousing, which will facilitate the next step.
On the lower front face of the Ford transmission are two ears that, if stock, are undrilled. The lower left ear can be drilled to easily match the hole in the lower left of the GM bellhousing. The right ear can then be drilled. It will not meet up with any hole in the GM bellhousing, so it is necessary that you drill and tap one to match. Use the same size bolt as you do for the other three. If you are not equipped with the tapping tools or the disposition to tap a good, clean set of threads, you may take this to a machinist as well. "
My transmission was sold as coming out of an '87 F-150 so it should work.. I have a Ford 351/400 4spd bell I can check to see how far off it really is
Seems to me that you have it under control, good luck
So it is ok to back up the hole I need to drill/ tap with a nut and call it good?Quote:
Originally Posted by NTFDAY
The other 3 bolts and the bearing adapter I've got, it's just that one bolt because the hole only be ~1/8" or so deep in that area. I've got the other bell out, and getting ready to see how far off it is but just by looking quick, it will leave a bit under 1/2 of the trans face uncovered which is ok I guess
If it was mine I'd probably drill the hole a bit oversize and run a grade 8 bolt and nut with a large washer on the back side of the bellhousing.
If it were mine I'd put the tranny on CraigsList, sell it for what I could get and then buy a GM tranny to go behind the GM block. You're setting yourself up for spending bucks for a cobbled up mess, seems to me.
I've actually thought about getting a Saginaw 3spd but none are local closest is 2hrs away ( one way ), shipping would eat up any savings and running for the closest would burn that much in gas.
Problem with the T-18 I've got is it is a long tail version that nobody wants ( slip yoke version ), and probably why I got a 90k mile grade A transmission for $175.. A Chevy Muncie SM-465 is common as dirt around here except the 2wd variations and I think they all use bolt on yokes anyway.. If I can make this work I'd rather do that. As long as it's just the extra $54 for the bearing retainer, $12 pilot bearing which it seems to be. Should not have a problem at the local parts store getting the mix and matched clutch
I pulled the trans out of storage made the measurements and transferred them to the trans and then held up the bellhousing. Confirms pretty much what Novak says for the 3 bolts. 1 ear can be drilled to match the chevy bell, the top 2 can be egged out. The one in question will drill in a clean section of the bellhousing, just to the outside of the extra 'boss' on the other side of the big hole from the clutch pivot pin. There is some webbing there which may need to be ground a bit for a washer/ nut to clear.
This bell that Novak has a pic of looks exactly like mine http://www.novak-adapt.com/images/pi...chevy_bell.jpg
I'm thinking the drilling oversize allows some wiggle room, so it can be lined up, centered and then snugged down?
Oh, and out of curosity. I notice with this bell that the side with the casting number looks like a punch out with the right dimensions for a clutch fork opening, and it has an extra 'boss' on the other side for what looks like a pivot pin. Were these cast for LHD and RHD applications?
"Wiggle room" is going to do nothing besides eat up input shaft bearings, pilot bearings, and the input shaft itself....
Good point! and on the ford bell... 2 of those holes were for dowels! This is a job for a machine shop. Not saying it cannot be done! Just gotta do it right!
This trans has no dowel holes. The 4 drilled holes on the Ford bell match the 4 drilled/tapped holes on the transmission..
I was thinking of having a machinst do the modifications. Novak says they recommend it anyway.. I actually know a machinist a town away. Used to work with him. He's set up in his garage as a side line and can probably do this cheap. Now I just have to find his number. Darn whitepages, now I know his last 4 known addresses now but still no phone number.. Guess I have to dust off the paper copy phone book.
Typically Ford uses 6 bolts and 2 dowels on their bell housings. The 2 lower bolts will have dowels close by. YES, consult your machinest friend!
I'd like to know how your going to hold the bolt or nut inside the bell housing? your bell. has no bottom cover to remove?? You really should do your self a favor and get a GM 3 or 4 speed
Ok, it is a Chevy bellhousing! What is the diameter of the input shaft bearing retainer vs the opening on the bellhousing? A tight fit here is a good thing, too.
It's just a basic Chevy 3/4spd car bell. It has the smaller diamater center opening. No removable cover.. I was wondering on how I would mount hold the bolt/ nut inside if it was drilled oversize. I think drilling and tapping, then install a stud backed by the nut on the back side of the bell with red locktite and it should hold without spinning/ loosening.Quote:
Originally Posted by cffisher
Are the Ford tranny bolts larger diameter then the Chevy bellhousing? If the bolt holes align, then the center hole is the only issue?
Oh, I've got the Chevy bellhousing. Not trying to drill the Ford bell to meet the Chevy block, but allignment is a good point. I know it's a one shot type deal or things will get uglyQuote:
Originally Posted by Dave Severson
The top bolts are less than 1/8" of fitting ( chevy bell to Ford trans )
If I buy the Chevy sized bearing retainer which according to Novak makes a slip fit as it should on the trans, then it should be centered. I could then have the upper holes fitted exact/ square by a machinist, and then the lower holes drilled... I do only want to do this once, and tearing out a crankshaft would defeat the purpose of putting the cheaper Chevy engine in the chassis.The only reason I decided to not use the 460 is the bearings are down to copper. I could put bearings in the crank ( still good ), prime up the oil and it would be good to go, but the Chevy is lighter and has more Hp ( stock ) than the severely timing retarded 460.
The center hole on a Chevy car bell housing is smaller than the Ford. 4 11/16" IIRC, so Novak provides a bearing retainer that is turned to fit in the Chevy bellhousing. The bolt holes are the same size between the Chevy/ Ford bell. Top 2 are a bit under 1/8" from fitting, and bottom 2 are way off but there is 2 undrilled 'ears' on the T-18. One when drilled will fit a stock Chevy bolt hole, the other puts it in more or less in the side- center of the bellhousing if drilled.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Severson
OK, gotcha now Matt!!!! Heck, just bring it over tomorrow after work and I'll weld the holes shut on the aluminum bellhousing, then drill and tap them to fit the Ford Trans!!!!!:LOL::LOL::LOL:
If you have even a half ways decent machinist around, he should be able to whoop that job out easily! Once you have the correct sized bearing retainer it's a cake walk, though I would (if it were mine) set up the alignment fixture so that I were absolutely certain the trans input shaft and crankshaft were in alignment!~!!!!!
Honestly the alignment never crossed my mind until you said something.. It looks like this is actually a common issue on the Chevy blocks, and offset dowel pins are available.. Found this site which shows quite a bit of info
CRG Research Report - Bellhousing Alignment
Like Dave pointed out, it is critical that the tranny bearing retainer be a snug fit in the bellhousing center hole. The four bolts on the tranny to bellhousing do nothing but pull everything together and hold it there. They provide zero alignment function. You need to bolt your bellhousing on the engine, then using a dial indicator with magnetic base attached to the flywheel, check the alignment of the bellhousing center hole to the crankshaft. Anything over 0.005 needs to be corrected with alignment dowels to ensure that the bellhousing is straight with the crank. Once that's done, the alignment of the tranny is done. Slide the tranny into place with the input bearing retainer snug in the bellhousing, and check your four tranny retaining bolt holes for alignment. Once you have the three that are close figured out, mark the fourth one and send your bellhousing to Severson to fix.
Or, buy a chevy tranny and make your life less stressful.