Suicide Axle Set Up.......

I'm toying with the idea of doing a suicide set up with the 36 Cab. I'll give a rough idea what I'm up to and by all means anyone with a thought chime in. From what I've read.....if there is a spring failure I'm digging asphalt. I'm trying to incorporate ideas into the front end to help reduce that.

32 stamped rails from American Stamping in Memphis TN: I'll be bobbing the rear and adding a rear crossmember from a 27 T maybe. I'll probably add to the rise of the front rails to allow for more drop as long as it doesnt affect the factory relief in the side of the rails. The idea behind this, given a possible front suspension failure, with the rear in tact, the first point of contact would be where the rail starts to rise instead of the frame horns themselves.

42-48 Magnum 4" drop axle. I wont be using a spring, but instead, a cantilevered arm under the hairpins, pivoting of the bottom of the frame. The front of the arm would attach where the shock mounts would normally attach. The rear would be in between the frame rails with an air bag on each side. (I'm told that quite often air bags fail so I'm trying to figure out a way to cover that with a form of limiting suspension travel)

Which leads me to the placement of the front axle. I'm guessing if I allow the frame horns to extend just above the axle then it wouldnt be a true suicide axle but still look similar? The idea I have floating around in my head......If I set the suspension up so that at its lowest point (without springs/shocks in the picture), the frame horns just touch the axle and the lowest point on the frame would still be just above the pavement. I'm envisioning what would happen in the event of a spring or air bag failure. I'm thinking the axle would support the the frame enough to allow time to pull off the road to safety.

I'm trying to think out of the box but still try to be safe. You also have to understand guys.....I have no experience with the traditional hot rods. Wish I did. I'm reading up on ackerman affect at this time.

Try putting your design on paper. A suicide front end dosn't need a dropped axle, that is what its' purpose is.

You mention wanting frame horns with the suicide front end. Usually, this is tough to do because the axle wants to come up and hit the now lower frame. But it is not impossible to do, my Son Dan did that on his rpu. He had to notch the frame not only for spring clearance, but also for axle clearance. Since the car only bounces a couple of inches at most, he has never bottomed yet.

Here are some pictures to show how he did it. He ended up using a more arched spring that shown here, the car just sat too low, especially when the engine was put in.

Don

OJH.... with Don's son's suspension it would allow even more travel with the dropped axle and and re-curved frame (I'm sure I'm not using the right word)? I am new the the old school stuff and I cant even begin to tell you how many hours I've spent pouring through old mag's and different forums. My wife is beside herself. lol.

Don....That is what I was thinking, sort of. How is your son liking the truck? I added a picture of what I'm shooting for. What baffles me is the lower links (air bag cantilevers). The look to be nothing more than 1/4 or 3/8 flats with lightening holes punched in them, with the only points that hold the two pieces together being where the lower shock mounts, front mount, pivot point and the airbag support. What on earth keeps them from bending under side loads? He does have a panhard and is using radius rods but I still wonder why he didnt secure the two pieces down the full length? Any thoughts.

Thanks,
David

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Looking at the second photo, I could see where I could change the arch of the frame so that its higher than the factory rails....and allow even more clearance for the cantilever. Maybe even be able to support it from the top instead of from the bottom.

I've dug out on of my son's Mattel 32 steel hot rod models. I think I'll modify it to get an idea of how it all works. Hopefully he wont miss it. lol

This gentlemans machine is way over the top with shiney stuff. I'm probably going to go with everything powder coated gloss black with the exception of fasteners. Even found a Speedway quickchange in wrinkle black finish which would go great with my idea. I'm still trying to get American Racing or Billet Specialites to make me a skinny front out of what they call their Salt Flat line. Grey center. And I'm now concidering ditching the idea of converting the LS to carb and going with something more appropriate. Guess I'll have to learn about the pre small block options. I'm sure liking the looks of the Buick Nailheads, but I'm still digging for ideas. Dont think I'm up to fabbing an intake for the LS to put deuces on top.

David

These are poor quality pics, but here is a suicide front end i'll be welding into place today. The jig holds the front axle at ride height, the frame is at ride height above the work fixture. There is a sweep in the frame as well, about 3 1/2" at the front spring crossmember. The front axle is stock - no need to 'drop' it, the front end cannot safely go any lower.
The frame ends have yet to be trimmed and finished.

The point is that with the 'suicide' style front end you don't need a dropped axle - it is either/or

It is really hard for me to tell from the pictures of that other silver car how the guy did the front end. A company by the name of Cenpen makes an airbag setup that was originally designed to put directly over the top of a straight axled car. My Son bought one and modified it to work suicide, as he wanted the car to lay frame. Here are some pictures of that car, when it existed. (He changed his mind and took a sawzall to the whole thing, scrapped it all, and started over with a more traditional traverse front spring setup and frame. ) But this might give you some ideas.

Don

You are both giving me some great help here. I'm sure I'll have more questions once I get started.

OJH,

I see what you mean now. I may just use the straight axle that came with the 36 now. The track width is wider than the Model A's, which is what I was wanting anyway so I could match up wider tires at the rear without narrowing the rear to much.

Don,

What did your son not like about the original set up? Did just decide he wanted to go a more traditional route? That looks great!

I've concidered instead of making my own cantilevers, using a split wishbone, pivoting off the frame somehow, all in conjuction with the radius rods. The only purpose the wishbones would serve would be as cantilevers. Question....the split wishbones like the vendors sell.....is the front forged /welded to mild steel? I'm just wondering what options I would have bending and welding on the material these are made of.

I'm also digging for Cenpen now. Thanks again!

David

Are you doing the truck in your avatar? You realise the front fenders won't work right? (with the suicide front end) Thats a pretty nice, complete truck and they look great with fenders. Not questioning, it is just that i've done this before and i don't want you to get in over your head. In a nutshell, if you go with suicide front end you will be building a 'radical' - a fenderless, hot rod that'll probably have to be chopped to get proportions right and the bed'll be optional. And bein that truck in your avatar is so cherry i would build around what you got. How about posting what you envision the finished product is to be and the guys on here can fill in the blanks to get you there.

Don,

What did your son not like about the original set up? Did just decide he wanted to go a more traditional route? That looks great!


I think the real motive was he just wanted to build it more traditional. He had a few bagged S10's and did some bagging for other people, so it was sort of natural for him to do that when he started building his hot rod. But he is a member on the HAMB and I think he started liking cars with more conventional suspension and looks. One night he just told me he had decided to start over, and out came the sawzall. :eek::LOL:

Don

OJH,

yes...I'm ditching everything up to this point and keeping the cab and grill. Seems a shame and if I could find another cab I would just sell what I have as a roller but I cant find one close to me (within 250 miles). I'm going to do something very similar to the picture I posted in post #4. My preliminary measurement will have me narrowing the cab 7 inches, 6" off the top, 6" off the bottom and I'll be shortening the grill shell 6" but I think I can keep the Chevy V and just take it out of the middle. I like the 20's or 22's the fella used on his but there isnt enough tire to suit me. Dont get me wrong, I think the low pro's have their place on certain cars but too little of tire just doesnt look right to me. I want at least 4 inches of tire sitting on top of my rims. lol's. I'll also be bobbing the frame just like his. Open rear...no bed. The only thing that bugs me is the only 18" rims I'm finding are the old gasser style 10 spoke fronts and I just cant find any big wheels for the rear that look right with the gassers. I photo shopped a 36 cab onto one of the fella's pics. It would look similar, going for the cantilever....really like that. More..........

I'll be painting the whole thing most likely black (gloss...I like rat rods but I want mine to shine)....black frame (placing modified cab on 32 Ford frame).....black quick change ( or I have a 2 speed Columbian rear from the 41 Ford Coupe that I thought about using but I'm having a heck of a time finding folks that can help me with it). And the wheels below if I can talk them into narrowing the fronts.

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LOL's Don. I know sawzall's well.

David

Too bad you are so far away, i got one of those radicals sittin in my back room- go to Hot rod Builds on this forum and go to page 2, there is a build i started called 'Truck it, with a Federal'.
I been busy workin on a '28Av8' and a '27 modified along with typical shop stuff and haven't done anything on the truck.

One thing i'd scratch off you list of cuttin and choppin is narrowing unless you want single seater, them old pickups are shoulder tight and cramped. My '36 ford could go about 45 minutes befor you needed to walk around for a while, thats why guys don't put big gas tanks in them - gotta stop anyway.

When you do get to slicen and whackin and stuff, i could use taht windshield frame. Got a cheby just like yours but frame is gone and if you're bound and determined to chop it up the frame won't do you any good at all, so think of me ok?

Ojh,

I checked out your build. Lol's. Looks like you have about as much windshield as I'm shooting for. I got all excited when I saw you was from Berryville. We have a Berryville AR less than 1/2 hr from me but then I saw you were a little further than 1/2 hr. LOL's.

I'm actually an oddball in that I like little confined spaces. As far as narrowing the width of the cab....I'm shooting for setting this cab on a factory 32 Ford frame so I'm narrowing the cab to fit....instead of widening the frame.....that way I can shrink the whole toy down to size. My 36 is roughly 7 inches wider than a 32 Ford body.

As far as the windshield frame....I gave that to a fellow member on here a couple of years ago so its history now. I havent even seen him on here for a long time. As I remember his handle was FLH something. Otherwise I would have gladly shipped it to you free of charge just as I did for him.

Oh....and incidently, I think I have found (I guess they called them 1 tons?) a 1ton 36 and the fella is concidering selling it to me. I told him what I was up too and he's thinking about it. Then I could just finish my existing project as time allows.

I guess I'm going to have to start a new build thread for this truck before Brent gets after me for not staying on topic.

David

I guess I'm going to have to start a new build thread for this truck before Brent gets after me for not staying on topic.

David


Quite the contrary. The fun builds on here are when you toss in a bunch of unrelated stuff like pets, jokes, old war stories, and a few of Uncle Bob's cuties for good measure. :LOL: That is how my build thread went over 200 pages and got off topic about 10 times a night. :)

Don

Yes it did :LOL::LOL:

Berryville AZ? Nope, we be in Viginia - this is where they filmed that Wendys' commercial. This is a small town and they shut the town down, filled Main st with them picnic tables and commandeered the mexican restraunts' kitchen and whipped up a meal to feed everybody. A buddy & i went into town with his tradional 'a' roadster and the film crews were all over it but it didn't get into teh commercial.
What does 'off topic' mean?

Oh, I think I saw you guys in that commercial!!!!!!!!!!! :D:LOL::LOL:

Don

Now, thats funny^^^^

Ha ha Don. Uncle Bob's girls havent visited me for a long time. Guess I scared them off. LOL's.

Ok....I've been fretting over a couple things in my sleep last night. I love those 10 and 12 spoke gasser wheels like Billet Specialties, Radir, and Rocket sells (except the price :eek:) I've had several people discourage me with the danger of rolling the tires of the rims in turns. What puzzles me is I first got my nich for hot rods when my folks took me to a car show (I dont think I was even a teenager at the time) in Galena IL was back and I instantly fell in love with the Tbuckets. Not a one of them had over a 4 inch rim on the front so I just dont see the danger? Anyway...the Radir's are spindle mount so I assume I can use my factory 36 axle? I know nothing about these. Guess I should call them.

The 2nd thing....how to find someone that knows what thier doing with a Columbian over drive rear? Want to convert it to external driveshaft and swap axles stubs. Plan on narrowing it a bit.

David

I wouldn't worry about running those spoke front wheels, I love them personally and want to run them on something in the future. I have never heard of any issues with them as your buddies describe.

As for the Columbia two speed rear, I THINK the open driveline conversion from people like Speedway will fit, but not 100% sure. Don't know about the rest, like the axle stub swap.

Don

Ok, it's been a while but I'm digging this back up. Primo is working me up a price for a pair of 21x3.5's and a pair of 20x10's for the rear done up tonlook like a salt flats slotted style. Really wanted to go with 20x15's till a saw the price of tires. And I was a little afraid of that size becoming a passing fad. Then I'd be in a mess. 20x10's are a very common size now thanks to all the trucks and SUV's out there. As far as the 21x3.5's, I'll be running a motorcycle tire as crazy as that sounds. I can run at max pressure and not worry about tires rolling off bead. I'll still have to take it easy in the curves I imagine. And I'm sure they wont last a 1/4 of what my Road King would but motorcycle tires are reasonable for the touring bikes IMHO. Should be interesting.

Yeah, that was FLH 4 Speed, he made a post a week or so ago, haven't seen him back again though. Some of us just seem to get too many projects going at once---Both good and bad, I guess. When I get stalled out on one waiting for "the plan" to come together in my head I've got something else to work on while I'm planning....the bad being that often projects just don't seem to get done in a timely manner. Had my '71 pickup for 18 years, so far it's got .7 miles on it (but it's almost done!) My '67 Ranchero has been sitting in the little garage for 5 years now since I last worked on it, but I should get back to it this summer some time...

Anyway, don't feel bad David, most all of my builds go the same direction as yours....put on hold while a plan comes together, but always something else to work on while the thinkin' process goes through a bit of aging....

Yeah, I know what you mean Dave. This build has truly been my dream since I was 16 but it was more important to me to build the El Camino for my son. It should be completed the first four weeks of warm weather this year. Can't wait to see him grinning driving away!

David