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I've Got A Corvair Front End In My Recently Purchased 31 Ford Coupe. I Can't Get The Alignment Correct Because The Caster Is As Far Out As They Can Get It, And The Tires Are Still Leaning Out At The Bottom. Anyone Ever Heard Of Off Set Upper Ball Joints And Where Can I Get Them. I'll Take All Advise. Thanks Again Guys!!!!
Well son, first of all, caster has nothing to do with the tires leaning in or out at the bottom or top. What you're experiencing is negative camber. The fix is to re-position the upper control arms farther from the centerline of the car.
In an ideal world, you could send the bill to the guy you purchased the car from. He needs a blanket party if he wasn't up front with you about the car.
Yep, Tech is right. Something in the installation wasn't done right.
Corvair front ends were popular to install on rods at one time because of the way they are made and it was a way to get IFS on an older car. I think that fad sort of went away when better front ends came along (Mustang II most notably) and also, the Corvair had the engine in the rear, so the front end was designed to carry less weight than a hot rod front end might weigh with a V8 up there.
That might be the reason for your negative camber. If you can envision what would happen when you put a jack under it and raise it up, the tires would start to straighten up . Conversely, if you were to sit another few hundred pounds on the front, the tires would do what you are seeing, tilt in at the top. It could be that someone cut some coils to get the car lower, or that the weight is just pushing it down lower, creating the situation you have.
Slip a floor jack under it and see if the tires do what I have described. You might not like this solution because it will raise the front up, but stronger coils might get your alignment back.
Don
Having an issue with the camber on the car, I would also look closely at the bump steer and calculate the roll center on the car. Could be whomever did the front end installation messed up and got all the geometry wrong on the front end which will make for a very ill handling, almost to the point of dangerous, Hot Rod......
most off set ball joints don't have much adj. to them. anytime you lower a car, after you get it where you want it, you may have to work with the upper a-arm to get the camber where you want it. move the a-arm brackets or get a longer a-arm. :cool:Quote:
Originally Posted by rjd3636
Excessive camber (either positive or negative is a bad thing - and it's more than excessive tire wear. When the tires lean, they develop a "camber thrust," which pushes on the car. Tires with negative camber push inwards toward the center of the car. Tires with positive camber push away from the center of the car. Think about what happens when you lean a motorcycle. As long as both tires lean equally, the forces offset each other. However, if the car hits a bump that causes one tire to lose some of its traction, that camber thrust will push the front end away from the straight and narrow. Your car can easily make a quick turn in a direction you didn't intend.
If you have negative camber, you need to move the ball joint away from the center of the car (Sorry, Richard, I think you had it backwards). That's not easy. It could take a longer A-arm, or moving the A-arm mount outward. Unfortunately, if you move it a lot, that may have other effects.
thanks for watching my back Jack, I have corrected my post :)
My wife's father had a very nicely done 34 Chevy sedan with the corvair front suspension and a 283 sbc. Every U turn was a 3 or 4 point turn. Never like the steering in that thing. If you got to do a lot of changes you might want to consider re-doing the entire front suspension to get better handling and a better ride.
When I went through the Moog training many moons ago, The instructor told us to always remember " The outhouse is positively out back" guess it worked as I've never forgot that...LOLQuote:
Originally Posted by techinspector1
Don, you win the gold ring! The tires look great with the load off of them. I will try some heavier springs and see what that does. He may have tried to lower it, or just screwed up putting the front end in. I got this car for a fair price but as usual, I'm discovering all sorts of dumb sh_t this guy did. I don't mind throwing some bucks into it, I just want it to be in the right direction. THANKS EVERYONE FOR YOUR HELP, I'LL PROBABLY NEED IT AGAIN SOON !!
If you intend to keep the car you should make a serious effort to get rid of that system. There's a reason they were only popular for about....................oh.................15 minutes!
Yeah, I didn't want to come right out and say that, but NOW THAT BOB HAS LET THE CAT OUT OF THE BAG................:D :D :D :D
They really weren't long lived popularity-wise, and he is right, there was a reason for that. They just were not the best setup to use. As I mentioned, they were designed for a front end that housed no engine (stock Corvair) and when you put the additional weight of an engine on top of them , they just didn't work out well.
If there is one thing that can make an otherwise great car unpleasant to drive, it would be an incorrectly set up front suspension/steering. I have had some ill handling cars over the years, and I dreaded going around the block in them.
If you got the deal you did, that allows you some financial room to make improvements. Start with the front end as Bob suggested. There are so many good ways to go today that you should have no problem installing something that will make the front end handle well and be safe to drive.
Don
Post some pictures so we can see what you are working with, then we can make some better suggestions.
camber is often adjusted with the use of Eccentric cams or slots in the upper control arm on SLA systems. castor is the angle that is the angle of the suspension and it's what allows for steering wheel return to center. ajust castor first, then camber and then toe, toe will affect the camber as will castor
Alright, you talked me into changing the front end. Bushings, ball joints and steering box are all worn out on this jewel. Now, what year, make and model front end should I look for in the bone yards that will bolt up without me pulling what hair I have left in my head out? I know new is the hot ticket, but reality says the money is not there. THANKS AGAIN BOYS...........
well there is no bolt up front end unless you get a new bolt on front end like an MII. a MII front end would work well, get a new MII x member for the model A and get a donor mustang II or Pinto and swap those parts over on the X member.
You've already got that!:eek:Quote:
Originally Posted by rjd3636
It kinda depends on how they hacked up the front rails to put in the Cowvair (that was the leather interior model). If the original front crossmember is still there (I saw a '33 once that was done that way) you should switch back to the Ford style front; beam axle, transverse spring, and then locate with wishbone or split bones, or, or, or.
Before expending a bunch of guessing energy, how about a picture of what you've got and some info on how the car is equipped (engine, trans, what kind of steering col, what kind of exhaust manifolds, so on), and what style of car it is, or you want it to be (traditional, smoothie, contemporary, whatever).
Matt's suggestion for a MII has a major drawback, front steer rack and pinion; it won't fit behind your front gravel shield, and the upper control arms interfere with the fenders......................or if you're fenderless, the setup is double ugly (but then the Cowvair ain't no peach either).
Bob is thinking exactly what I am..........going back to a traditional front suspension (I beam) would be a good way to go. He's also right about us needing some pictures to see what has been done to put this front end under in the first place. Otherwise, we are flying blind here.
Don
traditional front i beam suspension is what I would do if the framework was there to go back to it. I compleatly forgot about the interference with the fenders for MII, one of my friends has a '28 Model A sedan and was contenplating the swap until he found out there would be intererence, so he's keeping it traditional
Matt is right, and it is going to be hard to find a boneyard front end that adapts real easy or that will perform well. I'm not up on independant front suspensions, as I never use them, so there may be some current unit out there that is the hot setup (one of our other members might be able to supply that info though).
There are several problems with going the junkyard route, IMO.
1) Model A's don't weigh all that much in the frontend. If you try to adapt something from a passenger car, the ride can be very harsh because of spring rates.
2) You are starting with a very used unit, and it may also require a total rebuild to make it servicable.
3) They look like H***, IMO. If the car has fenders it helps somewhat, but many times I have seen where a builder had to incorporate "pockets" into the fenders to make room for the springs or another part of the suspension.
The key to this entire situation is seeing what you have now. The builder could have mounted the Corvair front end so it easily removes with no real damage to the A frame. Then again, he could have modified and welded it so badly that the only answer is to get another frame and start over. I hope you have the former.
I am like you, and like to save money where I can, but sometimes you just have to bite the bullet and spend a few bucks to get the parts to do the job properly. If you have been reading the "Project $ 3 K" build I am doing, you will see how I am spending too much time building a shifter that will never perform as well as one I could have bought for $ 200.00. I should have just picked up the phone and ordered one, and may end up doing that yet.
You have 2 choices IMO. One is to put the car back to early Ford style front suspension with I beam and radius rods. The other is to buy one of the IFS setups sold in all the magazines. I think they make one engineered just for Model A's, and it will give you disc brakes, modern steering, good suspension, and it will fit well. It will also increase the value of your rod, because a poorly designed front suspension stands out like a sore thumb, and any potential buyer will shy away if they see sloppy workmanship there.
But, get out the digital camera and take pix from every angle. We really need those to go on from here and give good advice.
Don
You can fit a M-II suspension under an A-bone if you know what you're doing. The front end on mine was a little higher than I liked, but that was header ground clearance, not suspension issues.
Jack: What components did you have to use from the MMII and what modifications did you have to make to get it to fit?
Don
Don,
This was a late 80's project, and there wasn't a lot of stuff available back then. I used a Progressive Automotive crossmember, and stripped all the parts from a M-II donor. I moved the lower control arm inward an inch, and fabricated my own tubular upper A-arm a bit shorter than stock. If I had thought a bit more, I would have eliminated the struts and fabricated a tubular lower A-arm.
I posted these photos a year or two ago, and it prompted a discussion about roll center and bump steer. However, I drove it through the traps at 120 MPH at Scribner, NE, and drove it to work down I-80 in Omaha every chance I got. It rode like it was on rails, and I never had any hint of handling problems.
I originally had it sitting really low, but the full length headers kept me from putting it on the deck. A set of shorties would have made it sit really right.
If I still had it, I'd replace the lower a-arms and change the headers - but years ago, someone waved too much money at me, and the car ended up in Harrisburg, PA. That guy sold it to someone in NY, I believe. I'd sure like to know if it's still out there somewhere. That was my first street rod, and it was one bada$$ driver.
Great info, and really nice job on it. I bet this helps him in making a decision on what to do.
I know what you mean about those debates where people tell you something you have done "can't work well." But here you are, having driven it alot, and can testify it does. Every hot rod is a compromise, and we modify things to make them do the job. If some super engineer looked at these mods he might tell you his textbook says it won't work, but we prove them wrong every day.
On the T modified I'm doing, I KNOW it is not the best thing to turn spindles around.........ackermann and all that jazz. But I simply have no choice, they would hit all of my rear suspension if I turned them the right way. So I will go with them turned backwards and see how they work. If it handles badly, I will go to plan B. (But I don't have a plan B yet :confused: :confused: :confused: )
Don
Just to make things clear, the setup Jack used/has shown is not something cheap that can be had from a junk yard and just "bolt in". Heidt's also makes a very nice system for Model A's called a Super Ride front end that puts the rack in rear steer along with tubular control arms and coilovers that don't interfere with the fenders, and would even look good on a fenderless car. This wasn't mentioned earlier because it didn't meet the "money is not there"...................All up the Heidts would run close to $3k before qualified installation. Someone with Jack's skill and knowledge can fab something like he had on the orange/red (?) sedan for something less than that but I didn't get the impression that rjd is there yet.
the lower a frame on a corvair has a bolt which attaches it to the cross member . the bolt is like a cam lobe you turn this bolt to make your lower arm move in or out ,which will make your tires lean in or out at the top .you can get shorter steering arms to speed up your steering I cut and shortened my own , used a pinto rack ,as long as the rack is level with the lower a frame you don't have bump steer ran this setup for over 20 years no problemsQuote:
Originally Posted by rjd3636
Welcome to CHR! Not a big deal, and someone may value the new input, but notice that you're resurrecting a post from 2006, nine years past.Quote:
Originally Posted by old