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What's the best method for welding up steel tube frames? Specifically I'm welding 1 1/4" OD (1" ID) steel pipe using an AC stick welder but I'm not 100% confident I'm getting proper penetration. Is there a specific rod + current setting that is best suited to this job?
Thanks,
Adrian
1/8th inch 6010 at 85 amps, maybe a little less, should get you pretty close to burning though. 6010 is the deepest penetrating rod. 1/6th inch 7018 will look better and with a little more amperage could penetrate just as well.
Isn't 6010 for DC only? I'm using an AC welder. Is 85 amps enough for 1/8th Rod? It must be very difficult to start an ARC? I have a hard enough time with 3/32 at 100 AMPs without it sticking. My welder doesn't have any pre-start, or extra current boost durring the initial ARC -- would I need to pre-heat the tubing, or do I just need to practice striking an ARC at 85 AMPS with 1/8th rod more?Quote:
Originally posted by 76GMC1500
1/8th inch 6010 at 85 amps, maybe a little less, should get you pretty close to burning though. 6010 is the deepest penetrating rod. 1/6th inch 7018 will look better and with a little more amperage could penetrate just as well.
Thanks!
Adrian
6010 is indeed a DC reverse polarity mild steel rod.
6011 is AC or DC RP
7018 is an easier rod to use, and it forms a nice weld.
Amperages with 1/8" rod:
6011 (90-140)
7018 (120 - 150)
Quote:
7018 Electrodes. The 7018 is the backbone of structural welding. This rod runs completely different from the 6010 and 6011 rods—it is much smoother and easier. More of a "drag" rod, the 7018 is also referred to as a low-hydrogen, or "low-high," rod in the field. The flux contains almost no hydrogen, and the rod produces smooth, strong welds that are very ductile.
Lincoln Fleetweld 180 is a 6011 specifically designed for small AC welders.Quote:
6010 & 6011 Electrodes: Both are fast-freeze rods, meaning that the weld puddle changes from liquid to solid rapidly. They also have deep penetration; produce a flat, rippled bead; and leave little slag. They are great for all positions, and they are used primarily by pipefitters, pipeliners, and boilermakers.
Lincoln 7018AC is an easy-welding 7018 stick for smaller AC welders.
However, if I were you, I'd talk to my Lincoln dealer and see what they recommend for your project.
Grind a chamfer approximately 1/8" x 45 degrees on the end of your pipe, use 6011 or 6013 rod 1/8" diameter set on 130 amps.
I have used an old Lincoln AC welder for years and got good results with the above settings and rod. I prefer the 6013 rod, it seems to flow out better than the 6011. If you have trouble eith "burn thru". back it up to 115 amps, but your penetration won't be as good.
Thanks guys, I'll play with my 6013 1/8th rod at 130 amps for awhile. Anything less than 115 amps I can't maintain an arc, it just extinguishes itself. I was running at around 150-160 amps before, but I had a very angry arc, lots of splatter, etc. I think I just need to slow down too -- I'm rushing too much.
I must have around 10 hours of welding experience, and I still haven't "got it". I need to take a class I think.
FYI"
If you're building a mild steel chassis for certification it must be either mig or tig welded only. ( chromoly Tig only). Not saying you are so it may not apply. Just that if that's what they (SFI & NHRA) consider safe............. well it's worth considering a mig welder. They are relatively inexpensive and make a nice weld. Not saying you can't use a stick welder, just offering an alternative.
Also, make shure welds are secure, gusset front axle welds if need be. On my old gokart, was just a used peice of crap and my dad had to weld 1 front axle back togther and, he is not a good welder ither, he used a 115 V AC linclon that we have and 1 day I was riding ( was about 10 ) and the weld broke and that front wheel went into the gokart and the frame went down and the cart went right around ( we did weld it back and go back riding again though ). And don't estimate the safty of your cart, you said it was in no way safe so, it's probably deadly, I know, I thought my cart was safe cause I had a rollbar and seatbelt, well I rolled it over in the road last week and learned otherwise. With your car't it'd be easy to panic and floor it without being able to let off causa fear, I'v done it, with my old 1, ended up wraped around a tree but I was ok. But I have only wrecked a gokart 2 times, 1ce with my old 1 when I was 9 and I rolled my new 1 last week.
Dang, you guys weld with a lot of amps. I don't know that AC requires more amperage than a DC weld, but I burnt up a lot of 3/16ths 6010 rods over the summer and would start burning flux off the rods at 140 amps with a DC welder. If you're having trouble starting an arc, strike the rod like a match, then pull away to about an 1/8th inch and maintain the 1/8th inch for the duration of the weld. Also, working in small semicicles with the open end facing away from the weld and the rod facing towards the weld will push the slag up on top of the weld and the slag will virtually chip itself as it cools. I tell this to everybody who complains about 6010 producing a messy weld. 6011, now that is a messy rod, stay away from it. 6013 is more for sheet metal and probably isn't the best for your purposes. The easiest rod to weld is 7024 because it is a drag rod and requires no arc length be maintained.
Hello Adrian,
I was a welder by trade for about 10 years, plus I pro-streeted a
'84 camaro a few years back {with a small A/C buzz box}. I would like to share with you my honest opinion on what I would do if in your shoes. I agree and disagree with some of the above info, but again this is just MY opinion. If you asked 10 different good welders these same questions you certainly would'nt get 10 identical answers. So anyway...... I'd use 3/32 rod as once you get going having TOO much heat is going to be more of a problem for you than 'not hot enough' {with small pipe like you have}. If it sticks then turn the machine up &/or try holding the end of the rod {an inch or two up from the arc} with your left hand, to guide it for more control}. Plus the smaller the rod, the easier it is to weld and the better it'll look {when learning. Although if you learn with large rod, then small rod is a piece of cake}. Use the amp
settings that welding books & other welders give you as just a guide {speaking of books, get a basic welding book, it'll help you}. Go up or down from there. Different machines can register differently. Once you've been welding for years the type of rod you use isn't going to matter much but at first stick to 'what the book says'. Different rods require different techniques {spelled wrong?}. 6011 is a good all position rod {so is 6010, although it is DC rod}. I don't know how to spell it but you osillate with it {go up & back, going into and out of your puddle}. 6012 & 6013 you just go straight ahead {according to the book, after awhile most welders develope there own style}. 6012 & 6013 is more of a sheet metal rod.Practice on flat stock first. In the flat position, then go to horz., then vertical, then overhead. I'm not trying to discourage you but pipe is the hardest to weld, and the smaller the pipe the harder. And what you have is considered small, without a doubt. so your starting out trying to weld the hardest there is. PRACTICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE!!!.... grind a bevel on both pieces of pipe where they meet, leaving a small gap if necessary. Start out on practice pieces that are short enough so you can see if your getting penitration. When possible you might try to 'roll' the pipe so that its always in the flat position.
Clean up the welds before you start out with a new rod. A small grinder with a wire brush is really helpful. It's also easier to use a new rod each time you start {although expensive cuz it wastes rod ;).Oh yeah, a class at your local college is an excellent idea {thats where I started}. But, just keep practicing, YOU CAN DO IT! {oh yeah, as mentioned above, arc welding is not NHRA legal, so if you have to go through any tech. inspections check it out}.
Hope this helps... Bill.....
ps, oh yeah, before welding two pieces of pipe together just try to run a bead around one piece of pipe.... bill....
Thanks for the great info! I already have plans on buying a decent 230v MIG w/shielding gas unit but only after I fully understand ARC welding. I do have a small 120V 90 AMP Flux core wire MIG machine, but I haven't tried welding my 1 1/4" OD (1" ID) pipe with it as I assume it probably won't penetrate deep enough?
I'm really enjoying the challenge of proper ARC welding -- I just wish I was more consistent. Some days my welds are perfect, other days I end up re-welding the same joint several times due to lack of penetration or slag inclusions.
I just recently read too that some rods are very sensitive to moisture? I suppose I should be putting all of my rods into air tight containers then, because I just have them lying around my garage right now.
So why isn't ARC welding NHRA legal? Are there just too many variables with ARC welding that don't exist with MIG? Are TIG welded joints NHRA legal? What about O/A welds?
Adrian
TIG is preferred by NHRA (Mandatory for Chromoly)Quote:
Originally posted by PsychoKart
Are TIG welded joints NHRA legal? What about O/A welds?
Adrian
I'm building a certified chassis, mild steel (TiG) . This is my first experience with TIG. I MIG welded for years @ Winnebago (Motorhomes) and thought it was the best method. I reluctantly bought a TIG welder for my "Z" project and was amazed at the difference in weld quality with TIG. There is almost no smoke or sparks from the weld so you have an unobstructed view of he weld, so you can see exactly how much penetration the weld is getting. Parts being welded and the fill rod need to be super clean tho. And it is a slower welding process. But well worth the extra work to get a nice weld.
After years of running a MIG welder my biggest adjustment to TIG was slowing down and not just burning a weld in the joint. TIG takes more patience and is a much different process than I thought it would be. Each time I weld I have to tell myself O.K. slow down and don't get carried away with the heat.
Adrian, Oh yeah, you brought up a good point. Keep the rod dry! They make special ovens for this but most of the places I worked just used an old refrigerator. Don't plug the refrigerator in but drill a hole in the side of it, stick an electrical cord thru the hole, hook up a light bulb to the end of the cord and plug it in. The heat keeps the rod dry. Wet rod or EVEN rod that has been wet and then dried is hard to weld with and almost IMPOSSIBLE to learn to weld with. Use dry rod..... Also make sure that the lens in your hood is clean {if your having trouble seeing you can use a #9 lens instead of a #10 but only at low amps. Don't turn a big industrial welder up to 225 and do this!}. Also using light duty gloves gives you more control but of course it'll also get you burnt easier so be careful. I think I mentioned something about holding the end of the rod when you first strike your arc? Be careful with thin gloves. Also, put the welding cable over your sholder so that your only holding up a foot or two of cable rather than draging all of it on the floor. They also make stingers that hold the rod tighter to give you more control. These stingers have a round thing that turns on the top of the stinger with a little hole in it where you put the rod. You can tighten the rod in really tight to get more control. Rather than the other type where the rod 'flops' all over the place. When you first strike your arc, hold the end of the rod with your left hand for control and just strike it like you were striking a match. The arc will pull up away from the metal momentarilly {sp?}. Then lower the rod back towards the metal, right into the molden puddle. Move the rod into and out of the puddle. Don't stay out of the puddle long enough for it to harden. Go in very short, slow strokes {6010, 6011}. First do this on flat stock in the flat possition...... Good Luck ;).... Speaking of Mig welders? Lowes has some really nice ones at a good price. Home Depot used to or at least the ones in my area don't carry them anymore. Mig is easy. Arc is hard. So keep practicing!
Why arc welding isn't allowed in NHRA is something that I've wondered about myself. Can someone who knows why 'chime' in and let us know? In my opinion Arc is stronger than Mig but then it's harder to do..... Hope this helps.... Bill....
Thanks a lot for the tips Bill!! Last night I tried holding both the electrode holder in one hand, and the rod close to the end with the other hand.. My welding must have instantly improved 50%! Striking an ARC is SOOOO much easier too when you're holding the end of the rod. I don;t know why I never held the rod before -- I must have assumed it was going to burn my gloves but it's fine. Holding that tip really did improve my welds because I really can totaly control it now.
I'll try making sure my rods are away from moisture and keep them dry too. I don't do enough welding to justify a fridge in my garage, but I'll certainly get a small toaster oven and keep my rods on low heat for awhile before I use them and see if that helps any.
Adrian
Adrian
Quote:
Originally posted by billlsbird
Adrian, Oh yeah, you brought up a good point. Keep the rod dry! They make special ovens for this but most of the places I worked just used an old refrigerator. Don't plug the refrigerator in but drill a hole in the side of it, stick an electrical cord thru the hole, hook up a light bulb to the end of the cord and plug it in. The heat keeps the rod dry. Wet rod or EVEN rod that has been wet and then dried is hard to weld with and almost IMPOSSIBLE to learn to weld with. Use dry rod..... Also make sure that the lens in your hood is clean {if your having trouble seeing you can use a #9 lens instead of a #10 but only at low amps. Don't turn a big industrial welder up to 225 and do this!}. Also using light duty gloves gives you more control but of course it'll also get you burnt easier so be careful. I think I mentioned something about holding the end of the rod when you first strike your arc? Be careful with thin gloves. Also, put the welding cable over your sholder so that your only holding up a foot or two of cable rather than draging all of it on the floor. They also make stingers that hold the rod tighter to give you more control. These stingers have a round thing that turns on the top of the stinger with a little hole in it where you put the rod. You can tighten the rod in really tight to get more control. Rather than the other type where the rod 'flops' all over the place. When you first strike your arc, hold the end of the rod with your left hand for control and just strike it like you were striking a match. The arc will pull up away from the metal momentarilly {sp?}. Then lower the rod back towards the metal, right into the molden puddle. Move the rod into and out of the puddle. Don't stay out of the puddle long enough for it to harden. Go in very short, slow strokes {6010, 6011}. First do this on flat stock in the flat possition...... Good Luck ;).... Speaking of Mig welders? Lowes has some really nice ones at a good price. Home Depot used to or at least the ones in my area don't carry them anymore. Mig is easy. Arc is hard. So keep practicing!
Why arc welding isn't allowed in NHRA is something that I've wondered about myself. Can someone who knows why 'chime' in and let us know? In my opinion Arc is stronger than Mig but then it's harder to do..... Hope this helps.... Bill....
Wow Psycho! I checked out the pictures of your Kart on another post. COOL! & talk about a good power to weight ratio? You've got that covered, for sure!
You don't need that many welding tips as your almost done with it! The welds that I could see looked alright. Just put gussets on any points that your unsure of. In fact, I don't remember where but somewhere on the internet I saw pre cut gussets {with cool little holes in them for weight savings} that were really inexpensive. On second thought make that CHEAP not inexpensive as you couldn't even make them for what they were selling them for. Oh, back to your welds, your almost done with your cart and way past the point I figured you were at. When your welding pipe {you propably already know all this but I'll get into it anyway}, you can go either uphill or downhill with your welds. Downhill is probably easier but uphill will give you more penitration. When going downhill you just go straight down {don't osillate}. Sort of experiment with staying ahead of your puddle and holding it back. When going uphill experiment with osillating and going straight. Sort of let the end of your rod 'pull' the puddle up behind it when just going straight. When osillating just 'build' the puddle up as you go...... Bill....
Hey Psycho, if I believe it may be best to strip the cart and take it to a shop and have it tigged together. IMHO it would be a very good investment.
Those pictures are actually from 2 weeks ago I think. The car is basically done with the exception of the fuel delivery system and brakes. The engine was normally gravity fed by the morocycle gas tank, but I have a fuel sell on the floor pan and so I need to figure out a fuel pump system that will work with CV carbs.Quote:
Originally posted by billlsbird
Wow Psycho! I checked out the pictures of your Kart on another post. COOL! & talk about a good power to weight ratio? You've got that covered, for sure!
You don't need that many welding tips as your almost done with it! The welds that I could see looked alright. Just put gussets on any points that your unsure of. In fact, I don't remember where but somewhere on the internet I saw pre cut gussets {with cool little holes in them for weight savings} that were really inexpensive. On second thought make that CHEAP not inexpensive as you couldn't even make them for what they were selling them for. Oh, back to your welds, your almost done with your cart and way past the point I figured you were at. When your welding pipe {you propably already know all this but I'll get into it anyway}, you can go either uphill or downhill with your welds. Downhill is probably easier but uphill will give you more penitration. When going downhill you just go straight down {don't osillate}. Sort of experiment with staying ahead of your puddle and holding it back. When going uphill experiment with osillating and going straight. Sort of let the end of your rod 'pull' the puddle up behind it when just going straight. When osillating just 'build' the puddle up as you go...... Bill....
I haven't done any long vertical runs yet. Most of the non-flat welding was on the round pipe frame. My engine mount, my seat suppoprt, and front end I welded from a flat position. I need to get some extra weldable steel for practicing too.
Adrian
I will be stripping the kart back down to the frame as soon as I'm completely done building and fine turning everything. I'll take it for a few low speed test rides to make sure I've got everything dialed in right, then I'm stripping it completely, removing all the slag, grinding down the welds, inspecting each one, re-welding if necessary, etc. The frame might look flimsy, but it's actually much stronger than it really needs to be so It won't make much difference if I break any one joint. The only real critical welds are my front spindles. I welded the front spindle U brackets to my front axle. I'll probably bring my front axle into a shop and have them inspect it.Quote:
Originally posted by Dave Severson
Hey Psycho, if I believe it may be best to strip the cart and take it to a shop and have it tigged together. IMHO it would be a very good investment.
The rest of the frame can suffer several failures before I stop rolling since I over-engineered it so I'm not too concerned about it. -- but those front spindles I welded on are ALWAYS in the back of my mind :)
I'm actually looking forward to stripping everything back down to the frame and doing the detail work. Prep all of my fabricated components for paint, paint them, then carefully reassemble everything.
Adrian
Quote:
Originally posted by billlsbird
Wow Psycho! I checked out the pictures of your Kart on another post. COOL! & talk about a good power to weight ratio? You've got that covered, for sure!
You don't need that many welding tips as your almost done with it! The welds that I could see looked alright. Just put gussets on any points that your unsure of. In fact, I don't remember where but somewhere on the internet I saw pre cut gussets {with cool little holes in them for weight savings} that were really inexpensive. On second thought make that CHEAP not inexpensive as you couldn't even make them for what they were selling them for. Oh, back to your welds, your almost done with your cart and way past the point I figured you were at. When your welding pipe {you propably already know all this but I'll get into it anyway}, you can go either uphill or downhill with your welds. Downhill is probably easier but uphill will give you more penitration. When going downhill you just go straight down {don't osillate}. Sort of experiment with staying ahead of your puddle and holding it back. When going uphill experiment with osillating and going straight. Sort of let the end of your rod 'pull' the puddle up behind it when just going straight. When osillating just 'build' the puddle up as you go...... Bill....
Hey Bill, you might be able to see some of my welds if you look at all of the pictures I've taken from beginning to end. Here is a link that contains every picture I've taken so far. I'm well over-due to take new pictures as all of these are very dated:
PsychoKart pictures from beginning to about 2 weeks ago.
Adrian
Don't grind the welds, most of the strength is in the crown of the weld.
Good point. Another NHRA rule, for good reason.Quote:
Originally posted by 76GMC1500
Don't grind the welds, most of the strength is in the crown of the weld.
Well, I need to remove the slag, and inspect each joint for good penetration. I can tell there is a lot of pitting and probably some slag inclusions so I'll grind the suspect areas down and re-weld them until I'm happy. I'll stop grinding when I've removed any pitting, etc. I'll re-weld every joint if I have to but I'm confident most of the joints are good so we'll see.Quote:
Originally posted by 76GMC1500
Don't grind the welds, most of the strength is in the crown of the weld.
If all my joints are pitted and crappy, I'll grind them all down and bring the frame to a shop so someone can TIG/MIG them as suggested earlier.. Any idea what I should expect to pay to have someone do that if I end up going that route?
Thanks,
Adrian