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I need some advice on cutting the frame. I bought a 55 Chevy truck that i'm going to do some work on. It has a 73 camaro front end on it now but it need to go forward to center the front wheel. Looks like who ever did it done a pretty good job under the truck just missed the wheel base little bit. My question is where should I cut the frame I have never done this before. It need to move bout 1 3/4 forward.
well it will definately be somewhere in front of the cab mounting points
while you are setting up to do this-----are you planning/wanting/maybe to lower/raise the stance a bit??
I would suggest maybe to get some 2 inch channel iron, cut the frame perfectly straight in some area that will be easy to weld/re inforce on and move forward the 2 inches of the channel-
Prior to doing any cutting put some referance lines on in different areas so you will have points to measure, level, etc from
Take lots of measurements and record them plus these days lots of pics-------maybe get some lazor levels( I got more than a dozen) blocks shims clamps
Plan on leaving stance where it is.
We have talked about this before and decided that you really need to move the front clip forward a given amount, then step back a ways and eyeball the truck from the side. Then move the clip a little more and take another eyeball on it. Then move it again and .........Quote:
Originally Posted by 39 Chevy
When push comes to shove, what matters is the look of the truck, not some particular measurement.
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I think it's a matter of both the above comments. One wants "the look" of the wheels being centered in the opening, but you must have measurements to be certain that the frame is kept square and the same length on each side.
Take plenty of measures and right them down. Then after you move the front clip, re-measure in the same locations and make sure the frame is the same side to side measurement ( equal distances) from before and after. Also make certain you don't push the front clip to one side more than the other.
setting wheel base without a good alignment is tuff . i go by a given point on the frame not wheelbase. set the rear centered then measure to and square up to the given point . i've had front wheels move an inch or more. i use the upper shock hole to measure to .
Issues of frame mods were the reason I bought a Hunter alignment rack-as the vehicles were getting longer-stretched suvs--the shorter older systems that used strings, etc instead of the fancy new shit became real cheap-I got one that had been in a caddy dealership that did a lot of streched limos but they upgrated to the newer system-------
It sure works nice to be able to move major components and keep the suspension correct instead of making a big move and then working your ass offf trying to correct bump steer,caster, camber , wheel base, travel--------
I have seen and read articles where some people have moved the wheels forward with offset upper & lower control arms. Is there a down side to moving the wheels this way?
any thing different than original control arm geometry will definately effect suspension travel---------
Yes there has been some installs where the stuff is reversed side to side on vehicle to effect some slight change-----( it was fairly common to reverse sides with spindles on solid beam axles so steering rods could be moved to front of axle for more oil pan clearance, etc,etc---------however , solid beam axle and independant fronts are 2 entirely different beasts---------
If you want to do this in your garage, outside under shade tree or where ever it might not be perfectly flat-------park your car where it is setting with the stance you want-measure the shock length, make up some rods/tubes/wharever that length and install to hold the suspension at that height-because as you cut and move stuff the suspension heigth/travel will change and mess up yoir project--------Then/now--jack up the car, using 3 points (triangulated) to support the rear part of the car from firewall area back--------under the front construct some type of support structure that will solidly hold it and also be movable so you can cut the frame rails and move forward that 1 3/4 inches------put plenty of referance marks and measurements from several traangulated locations and using several taken from same 2 marks to different 3rd mark record them -------abC, abD abE, abF and bcA, bcD, bcE, bcF etc
If you want to ( I do this lots) used several locations in your shop where you can set a lazor level and record on frame where line and/or mark is) You can easily make these from bags of quick set cement and bottom halfs of plastic buckets with a piece of alum or steel plate as a surface for the lazor
Not sure how you would do this without re-engineering the entire clip. I would just move the clip forward on the frame and be done with it.Quote:
Originally Posted by 39 Chevy
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did they cut and butt it or lay the clip under the frame ?
I had to move a clip on a guys car before but it was the cut and butt installation. Here are some pics of what I did.
Here was the issue with who ever done the original clip.
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8444/8...141b538e64.jpg
Here's a close up pic of how it was tied it together may give you some ideas. I cut the cut lose and removed enough metal to make it center and butted it again. The area final weld it was boxed on both sides and the diamond shaped plates reinforced over the vertical welded area. I don't believe in leaving vertical welds with no reinforcement. It could be over kill but its safer at least in my head.lol Its just one of those things I do and other may not agree.
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7126/8...436b840795.jpg
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7106/8...f397701e4b.jpg
After
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8444/8...8fb541c801.jpg
I am saying cut the clip whole, then move it forward, but... you must have lots of places to measure and ensure as much as you can that it stays square with the frame. Same as Jerry says.Quote:
Originally Posted by techinspector1
the only places the same on a camro clip are the aframe mounts and shock mounting hole. the 2 frame rails are only close side to side. this is the reason i use the entire clip. the rear rails are the same and set the geometry right. i do use off set a arms because of the rake. otherwise it is a bear to align .
i would find a new clip to use the rails from.
most of my concern was verifying that it was good to begin with---------
I maybe opening up a can of worms for a first time project. Clip is under the frame to answer Shine's question.
good. it will be a huge pia to cut the welds loose but if you can the clamp the clip and take a bfh to it and move it centered in wheel well and square up to frame and rear end .
this is my preferred way to do it .
Nice work.Quote:
Originally Posted by BAM55
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Wow, you did a fantastic job cutting the frame and making look correct, I see you plated it correctly also. I'm sure it was a PITA but if your like me you would have looked at whats wrong every time you look at the vehicle. It was worth your time to do it. I had a similar thing with my 53 when I did the rear end. I had all my measurements double checked and I had everything perfect according to how the original 53 frame measured. The problem came in where they put the rear end from the factory caused wheels to be too far forward making then un-centered in the rear fender. I never really noticed until after the pickup was painted. My fix wasn't as involved as yours but I did end up moving the rear wheels back 1 1/2 inches.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 53 Chevy5
Thanks for the compliment man.
I had to fix one that was way more involved than that one. That one was fairly straight forward because it was put in nicely just a little to long. But man I have another buddy whos clip was installed ugly, unsafe, and just a complete mess. People were talking him he need a new clip at the least maybe a new frame. I figured out a way to set it right. It drive nice and looks decent now.
Before
http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5012/...c4104d6451.jpg
http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5300/...061c158c11.jpg
http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5294/...f1feca53c6.jpg
http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5296/...d072cac5b3.jpg
Is that just unbelievable that he was driving around on that. The guy that done that awful work had the nerve to tell my buddy his truck was dog tracking one day when he was driving behind him.lol
Well here are the after pics
http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5013/...2cc66899e9.jpg
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4142/...65ebcb4d89.jpg
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4154/...f4584e20b0.jpg
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4150/...0e3cf04c86.jpg
http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5059/...e75f00b315.jpg
This is it at one of our local carshows. My buddy is happy and the truck handles really nice now.
http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2822/9...17ee6230e5.jpg
I've seen a lot of bad clip installations over the years but that was by far the worst I've ever seen or fixed.
Wow, what a difference. That came out real nice.
Shame that someone considered that mess even adequate.
It's difficult to find a craftsman who really cares about the quality of work he turns out, but you have a flair for making everything turn out OK and are a credit to the hobby.
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That one gives bad a bad name. Nice save.
That went from butcher block to art, nice work. Do you have a preference on what clips you like to work with? I hear the Dakota one is a popular swap also.
Yeah Guys it was a horrible installation. Like I said it was the worst I've seen. Angle iron, different gauges of metal just slap together with what ever was laying around.
I've installed many clips and if we are talking about donors I like the 78-88 Monte Carlo for that for the mid 50's trucks and S10 for the late 40's and early 50's trucks. I don't know why people use the whole frame but they do I just use the S10 front section. I try to stay very close to the original track width, so of course it depends on the car or truck as to what I start looking for. The Camaro is also a very good clip but I perfer the 78-88 Monte Carlo because of the 58 inch track width I like the steering box a little better also. But the Camaro is an easier clip to work with because of its reference points it's easier to get square.Quote:
Originally Posted by 53 Chevy5
I don't touch the Volare anymore but it was a very popular donor in the past because of its ease of installation. Notch the frame and install and no worry about sheetmetal alignment like with any clip that you have to cut the front section of the frame completely off. But its hard to find parts and you have to offset your engine because of the big steering box and header choice is limited.
I have a buddy who just installed a jag frontend on his 57 Chevy truck. It came out nice also no cutting the off of the frame you just notch it. He also installed the IRS. The rear was a little more involved but he did a pretty nice job. People take them out of the cage but he used it and modified his rear frame and made mounts like in the car.
If we are talking aftermarket I love the Flat Out Engineering cross member. You just bolt on vette stuff after you install the cross member you can do front and rear if you like. They also sale the same for the Dakota and I have a friend who installed that and he likes it alot. Its a pretty nice healthy looking cross member.
Imo it all depends on what you are looking for. For simplicity of installation I would always go aftermarket but if you are on a budget nothing is wrong with a donor clip that is installed correctly.They ride just as nice in my opinion and are proven. Now if you are building for bragging rights or shows thats another story.
Very nice save on that hacked mess! That was worse than my 40 for sure.
Ok, back to the front end after getting a good look at everything its not to good of a job on the welding. It's been patched to-gather looks rough. I'm thing about just cutting it off getting a new clip for it. Any input on what year to go with. I was told what I have is a 73. It seams to be a little wide can't get much tire size under it without it rubbing on a turn.
You are good with using a Camaro/Firebird from 1970-1981.Quote:
Originally Posted by 39 Chevy
It pleases me very much to have you as a member here. I love doing frame and clip swaps because it makes so much sense and now we have you to lean on for information. Great to have you here. :D
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If that was directed at me I thank you. Its nice to have a place to share knowledge and learn from others. That is what this hobby is all about. So thanks for letting me know I'm doing that.Quote:
Originally Posted by techinspector1
Sorry I did not notice this part of your post. I thought you simply wanted to replace what you already have. It is true the the Carmaro/Firdbird clip is a little wider than the stock track with but most offset this with wheel offset or using narrower a-arms. The 67-70 Carmaro/Firdbird clip is narrower but it is rear steering like the clip I posted of the fix I did. This can affect your steering linkage or header choices. This is why I stated eariler in this thread that my donor of choice for 55-59 Chevy trucks is the G-Body 78-88 Monte Carlo, Cutless Supreme, Riveria, etc. The track width is 58 inches and works great I also like the feel of the steering box more. The only draw back is its not as easy (still easy if you careful) a install as the Carmaro/Firdbird because the Camaro has great reference points to get the clip square. The G-body you have to be extra careful when trying to get it square.Quote:
Originally Posted by 39 Chevy
I have found that the first thing you need is a flat and level floor (a home garage floor is neither). Then you need a plumbbob to drop down from the frame in the rear at places that are equidistant from points on the front of the frame. You can then verify that the frame has not been bent in a collision before you start. Dropping your plumbbob down to the floor and marking reference points on the floor will allow you to accurately measure from the rear to points at the front clip and get the clip squared up before tacking it into the recipient frame.Quote:
Originally Posted by BAM55
I did clip swaps at my home garage by building a particle board floor above the concrete garage floor and using 2" x 2" shim packs every few inches to level the whole mess. Three pieces of 4x6, 3/4" board worked out just right to make a 12ft x 6ft flat and smooth working surface. From the northeast corner to the southwest corner, the new floor required from zero shims at one corner to 2 3/4 inches of shims at the diagonal corner to make it level. I kept a 2 foot length of 4x4 lumber handy to slide around an make sure that there was nothing lower than 4 inches from the ground at ride height.
I could have also constructed a frame jig and done it that way, but I wanted to see that I could do it with a new floor, which I did. I used this same arrangement to construct an independent front suspension system from scratch, using an MII power rack and pinion and MII spindles. I had zero toe in/out in 9 1/2 inches of suspension travel (verified with a dial indicator), using chromoly tubing for control arms and Chevy pickup control arm bushings, along with a set of Aldan American coilovers. My hero in that project turned out to be Carroll Smith, the guy who had been Ford's crew chief when they went to LeMans and whipped Ferrari. He laid it all out for me in his book "Tune to Win". I had read several different authors before I happened upon Smith and became enlightened.
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techinspector1 good post