Serious oil filter adapter problems

I wanted to clean out all the leaks on my shop truck Rufus a 1999 Sonoma 4.3 stick shift.So because it in overall a good running truck and I have grown to really like it,the job I started was to replace the rad from a cob job rad repair,replace the oil cooler lines and replace the gaskets on the oil filter adapter that the oil cooler lines run to.The Fel-Pro gasket kit for it is ES70016.I got it back together and it was just dripping alittle off the oil filter and it was really late on a really long day.I thought I had over tighten the Wix oil filter and wanted to drive back home from the shop with the intention of getting another filter in the morning and some more oil.(kind of embarrassing rookie mistake) I make a judgement call that all I would have to do in put in the spare quart of oil I had based on it was only a small drip.I watched the oil pressure all the way back and it maintained about 40 psi.I stopped to get gas and checked the dip stick and much to my horror there was nothing showing.Still no knocks or issues.Put in the spare Qt of oil and nursed it to the parking lot of the parts store about a mile down the road and coasted into the parking lot as the pressure went to 0 and I shut it down.Scared that I had ruined the engine and it would be a total lost over night I had it towed back to my shop the next day.Still thinking it was the oil filter I got another one and some more oil.Got it up on jack stands and replaced the oil filter and filled it with oil.With my heart in my throat turned it over and it built normal oil pressure ran normal.Just for a second it squeaked on the start up.I sat there for a minute thanking god that I didn't ruin the engine.Thought I would rev it up to see if the pressure went up,but then thought first I should check for leaks.While it had just a drip before I drove it home I did check threw the wheel well that oil filter adapter and it looked dry.Well I checked to see if it was still leaking and much to my regret I saw about 3 qt's of oil on the shop floor and shut it off.Damm!!

So with this background it certainly is the adapter leaking where the gaskets go on.It's really hard to see up there.I had to use some Fel-Pro tacky gasket cement on the center gasket and the O ring just sets in a groove around the outside of the adapter.It's really hard to get up there or see so I used a long phillips screw driver in one hole to help guide it while having the 40 mm socket and extension on one of the bolts to get it started.I called Fel-Pro tech to confirm I had the right gasket set and ask them how to hold the O-ring in place while I reattach the adapter.The center gasket really I don't think is a issue.They told me it was the right set and really nothing for the use of the rubber O-ring could be used.Especially do not use silicone.

So sorry about the long intro in the background of this.My question is how to hold the O-ring in place??. Second to that I can't keep trial and error this loosing oil on the shop floor and chance losing a truck that I really like.

I come to you guys with hat in hand hoping that after I take it part the next time with a fresh gasket set it will be fixed.Please help.Got some bill paying to do today and I will check back later.

Thank You.

I'd put a dab of gasgacinch in the groove in two or three places, let it tack and then set the super clean o-ring in place. If I didn't have gasgacinch I'd do the same thing using a tiny dab of non-hardening permatex form-a-gasket.

Gary, I like to use a little vaseline rubbed on the o-ring, just enough 'sticky' to hold it in the groove.

Mike

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Originally Posted by Mike52

Gary, I like to use a little vaseline rubbed on the o-ring, just enough 'sticky' to hold it in the groove.

Mike

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Ooooh, I like Mike's idea even better! Nothing to keep the o-ring from seating, but enough to keep it in place.

Yeah guys I have some at the shop too.Man I wish I knew what size the attaching bolts where.Then I could get some threaded rod to use as guides and thread some nuts on it to hold it in place while I thread one bolt at a time.All I know is it's a T-40 socket.

A set of these gauges is a very handy thing to have in a drawer - Thexton Manufacturing 432 - Universal Thread Gauges They sell them at NAPA, too, but I could not get them to pop up with a search.

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Originally Posted by 1gary

Man I wish I knew what size the attaching bolts where.

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Gary, glad I'm still at the office, I have access to the info you need. The bolt for the 2WD 4.3 oil filter adapter is 5/16-18 x 3", the 4WD 4.3 uses the same thread pitch but the length is 3 1/4". This should get you the threaded rod you need.

Mike

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Wow that is too cool.Thank You very much.I do like the Vaseline suggestion because it is neutral if some of it gets into the oil.I don't think it would end up clogging a oil passage.

As usually you guys are just the best!!.

Gary, the vaseline will not cause an issue clogging an oil passage, once it heats up it will become a liquid.

Roger, I have a set of those type thread gauges, a neighbor let me borrow a set once and I tried to buy them from him, that didn't work out as I hoped :LOL: but I found a set on ebay.


Mike

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Originally Posted by Mike52

Gary, the vaseline will not cause an issue clogging an oil passage, once it heats up it will become a liquid.

Roger, I have a set of those type thread gauges, a neighbor let me borrow a set once and I tried to buy them from him, that didn't work out as I hoped :LOL: but I found a set on ebay.


Mike

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Yeah Mike I am agreeing with you.

Roger I have a size gauge that is a simple white card. I don't remember where I got it.I think it was a box store like Lowes.My shop is aways away from my house in really the middle of no where.I don't have it back apart yet so to have the threaded rod size and then get the threaded rod to take with me to the shop is surely saving me some gas money.I am driving the RV that doesn't pass many gas stations.This across the road at my shop.


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Originally Posted by Mike52

Gary, the vaseline will not cause an issue clogging an oil passage, once it heats up it will become a liquid.

Roger, I have a set of those type thread gauges, a neighbor let me borrow a set once and I tried to buy them from him, that didn't work out as I hoped :LOL: but I found a set on ebay.


Mike

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Yeah Mike I am agreeing with you.

Roger I have a size gauge that is a simple white card. I don't remember where I got it.I think it was a box store like Lowes.My shop is aways away from my house in really the middle of no where.I don't have it back apart yet so to have the threaded rod size and then get the threaded rod to take with me to the shop is surely saving me some gas money.I am driving the RV that doesn't pass many gas stations.This across the road at my shop.


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Gary, you won't have to make a special trip for threaded rod if you have a spare bolt collection like most of us. Find a 5/16-18 bolt with the appropriate length and cut the head off, then cut a slot into the end that fits your favorite screwdriver with a die grinder or dremel. You only need to screw it in finger tight but the slot makes it easier to remove. Here's a couple of 1/4-20 bolts I've used on Harleys. Bolts modified like these come in handy for lots of uses like oil pans, front timing covers, bellhousing to engine, etc. Hope this helps.

Mike

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Yeah Mike I have those to guide on trannies onto engines.The same thing.I think yrs ago it was a tip in a Hot Rod magazine article.I cut the heads off the longer starter bolts.

Double check that the old oil filter didn't leave it's o ring behind, sticking to the block.

First off I want to thank all of you for your useful support and info.Sure enough because I couldn't see it the O-ring wasn't seated properly.Once I got it apart one side of the O-ring was caught or blew-out leaving the adapter bolts barely finger tight.I got me to thinking.Compare the size of O-ring to the rubber gasket on the oil filter. Well that is a no brainier.The phooey size of O-ring size just doesn't compare.Likely the reason why the leak over the long term.I am not one to give up on a mechanical challenge,but if it doesn't make sense in a bad design then what's the sense in trying to get over that and risk a engine to boot.

So I did a oil cooler delete unscrewing the threaded center with I think it was a 10mm Allen socket and screwing it back on the block and then just reattaching the oil filter.I think I got it now.I ran it until at operating temps while it was still on the jackstands and the oil filter was dry.The truck is so soaked in oil that it has drips for now.So I will be driving by dipstick for now until I figure a way to take it to a coin car wash and clean the bottom without taking a bath in water/oil.

Now I don't know how the aftermarket oil cooler adapters are.Hopefully they have a wider rubber gasket than the ones that where built by GM with that dumb O-ring.I would think that small of a O-ring wouldn't fair well with a high pressure oil pump.

Hey Jerry or Pat-could you machine the groove wider on these GM adapters so they would end up with a rubber gasket in size similar to the wide flat rubber gasket on oil filters??.

i can machine any thing ....if not i have a shot gun and a big hammer

Pat-what does the aftermarket have??.

.....O rings

Surprised they would hold up with a high pressure oil pump.

Gary, a properly installed o-ring on a flat surface application will hold extreme high pressures. Putting in a bigger o-ring is not going to improve your seal - it was designed as a system, and there are literally thousands out there that work just fine. You've found the problem, that the o-ring was not in the groove, and got pinched. If you install it right your problem will be gone.

Roger my thought is if one had a enlarged flat seal like that of a oil filter it would be more secure.My background with Astro vans has seen many if not all the oil cooler lines leaking in one fashion or another.Same with the S10's.And I am not saying it is all the O-rings.No doubt after I took it back apart it was a error.But then again you can't see to check the o-ring surface if it is properly seated.That surely is a critical part to the life of the engine.Now if it was a engine on a engine stand during assembly tipped upside down to be able to see what is going on,that would be something entirely different.So my idea of a wider flat seal like that of a oil filter that was secured to the adapter I would think would be more of a fail safe method.Just my thoughts through and again contributed by the background in the Astro vans oil cooler lines issue.

There are a bunch of Astro and S10 guys that have done the oil cooler line delete for leaking issue they have had.So it does have some history of it being a problem over time.I honestly don't know if that is true of the aftermarket ones once they have been on for awhile.

The reason for the flat seal on the filter is the need to "pinch" it in the groove on the thin, spun metal filter base. An o-ring would not work well in that application, or at least the manufacturing process would change driving the mass production costs up. Also, that flat seal on the filter is designed/intended for a limited life where the o-ring on the adapter is long term. IMO you will be increasing your chances of problems down the road by machining a bigger groove and using a filter gasket, but that's just my opinion.

1Gary, just a point of information. It's not all in the shape of the seal that gives it strength, case in point, high pressure / high flow hydraulic systems used in heavy equipment still use a basic o-ring. The effectiveness to seal is really in the housing and how the seal is kept in place. I think a square edge seal would be problematic if you are pushing straight against it. On an oil filter, it's rotated up to the seat to make a seal and most are only rated to handle less than 100 psi as there isn't any shoulder to capture the seal.

My... point oh two! fwiw,ymmv,yada yada yada..

Ok I can see each of you guys points and they are valid.What do you think would be a upgrade to the current design??.:confused:

Oh with a case key on my key ring,most seals on heavy equipment are on cylinders sliding back and forth threw the seal.So there is no way a square seal would ever work in that application.But I do get the point of them holding up under high pressure.And in heavy equipment those o-rings and the surface area is substantial.I mean they are huge and thick.

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Originally Posted by 1gary

What do you think would be a upgrade to the current design??.:confused:

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I do not see any reason to attempt to upgrade a design that has proven itself in so many applications. Install the right o-ring correctly, torque it down and it will not leak, provided your flat surface pieces are not warped, and fit together as designed.

Actually, 1gary, I was thinking of the other end of the piston! where the fluid line bolts to the cylinder.. but, no matter, the example comes to the same conclusion. High Pressure is captured against a shoulder and the O ring fills the void which pushes against the shoulder(s).. The square seal on a oil filter is compressed into the filter housing and uses the housing shoulders for support.

It's worked very well on millions and millions of vehicles, provided it is installed correctly. I think you should use the recent failure as a learning experience and turn your efforts elsewhere!

Again, I mean no dis-respect and it's only my opinion! 8-)

Had a 10' box truck with a SBC and a oil cooler.Well that one leaked too.

Same mechanic put the adapter on that one too? Gary, I think you've got consensus here that the factory design is good, but that cannot account for bad installation. Besides, we're talking about things that are pretty mundane here, right?

Roger-I have admitted the possibility on this repair was done in error.I am not being defensive about that.I also said it is impossible to see the o-ring mating surface after it's bolted back on.That I was tired of the trial and error watching my hard earned money in oil pour out on the floor.

Roger where we respectfully disagree is the topic of 10 yrs on a Astro site seeing failure after failure and now recently being on a S10 site seeing the same where the repair was the delete and then having me think back to when I owned a 10 box truck with a SBC with a oil cooler and that leaked too.I am summarizing from that experience/history there is a issue of the design that could use improvement.

I bring it up here because of the trust level I have in the members here and because I believe in general a root foundation of what I think hot rodding is,the innovations of the possibilities what can be.

A example of that is my project a no window high top cargo Astro van with a SBC 383,700R4,Ford 9",lifted 3",with a custom built sleeper behind the driver's seat.I think it is kind of the same thing in a way.

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Originally Posted by 1gary

the topic of 10 yrs on a Astro site seeing failure after failure and now recently being on a S10 site seeing the same where the repair was the delete and then having me think back to when I owned a 10 box truck with a SBC with a oil cooler and that leaked too.I am summarizing from that experience/history there is a issue of the design that could use improvement.

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I'll admit ignorance of this particular design.. if this has been going on for 10 years at another website, and now is being seen at another site that again is specific to the brand... I'd say it's either a terrible design or maybe not a high enough priority / criticality issue to investigate repair.

10 plus years is a long time and no-one has "fixed" it? That means (to me) it isn't a big problem or ?????????

Gary, if you look at every aftermarket adapter for relocating the oil filter they have one common feature - the o-ring seal. Moroso, Mr Gasket, Spectre, etc, etc, etc all use the same design. With all due respect, this is not the only part where holding the gasket/o-ring in proper position while jockeying the part into place is critical, but done every day. In my opinion you seem to have simply had the bad luck of a pinched o-ring, and maybe twice on different vehicles over time. Mike pointed out some very good tips for getting it on right, based on his years of working tight spaces on Harley's, that it seems to me would just about guarantee success unless your adapter is not flat, is cracked, or is a porous casting. Maybe all of the guys on the S10 and Astro forums are the experts. How about replacing that remote cooler adapter with a quality aftermarket unit, like a Moroso??

Good luck with your repair, and I'll go out to the shop.

Roger you could be right in the suggestion of replacing it with a aftermarket.I took on this job and advise knowing full well the issues Astro's and S10't have had saying to myself I am a good enough mechanic I could out smart it.And the suggestions likely would have worked.I just got to a point watching my new about 5 bucks a qt of oil on the shop floor and not having a clean drain pan, in the middle of no where,I decided to take the path I did.Deleted it.So it is repaired and running.And I thank my lucky stars I didn't blow up the engine turning this truck into junk which at this point in time would have been tragic.

I thank both of you for going down this road with me.It's that advise that I never forget.And Roger in the same hand(yeah suborn to the grave)I surely wish I could convince you about what I am telling you about the Astro/S10's history and the leaks.Roger it is just the facts.

Gary, it's an afterthought now that you've found a solution but did you know GM offered a remote oil filter specifically for your 1999 Sonoma? I found this while browsing for more info regarding your problem. The downside is.............it involves more o-rings :3dSMILE::LOL::D.

Mike

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My brother's 4.3 S10 has a leaky oil cooler too. I wondered why they even put one on the thing, Bro sez it's probably more to warm the oil on a cold day than a cooler. Makes some sense to me.

Mike,I wonder if that is for a four wheel drive??.Mine is a RWD.The Doman replacement lines have a bar with both seals on it.

Dorman/Engine Oil Cooler - Hose (625-122) | 1999 GMC Sonoma 2WD 6 Cylinders X 4.3L SFI OHV | AutoZone.com

Same for Advance Auto parts.

The rad ends have quick connects and the 0-rings are incorporated in the screw in fittings.Which surprisingly the bottom oil line clipped in easily(harder to reach),but the top rad line took more effort.Nether ends of the lines leaked.Dry as a bone on the replacement.The one I took off on the hose end was loaded with dried crusty oil.

Some of this advise given will come into play when I swap in the 383 in the project Astro in a question if I want oil cooler lines on that.That van's main function is towing.Now that I think of it,the aftermarket remote either dual oil filter or oil cooler set-ups have the adapter bolt in place of the original location of the oil filter.Least the ones I remember seeing.

I am guessing that Pat,Jerry,and Richard who I have spoken alot about the 383 build would tell me I don't need it.But I don't really want to speak for them.It is tight quarters for air flow in the Astro,but then again just another opportunity for a leak to develop.

Gary, the information I have access to and posted is genuine GM factory info. I looked it up for your specific year, model and took a guess it was RWD. The only reason I posted the oil filter adapter and lines above was to see if you knew they were available from the factory for your Sonoma since earlier in the thread you mentioned a remote oil filter adapter. The link you posted is for replacement oil cooler lines to the radiator, my pic above is for oil filter adapter lines. I have an '03 Blazer 2wd with a 4.3 and I'm very familiar with the oil cooler, oil lines, radiator,etc, I had to replace the radiator a couple of weeks ago. The oil cooler lines with the flexible, soft hose sections were a piece of cake to connect to the rad, it was the all metal tranny lines that were a challenge to line up to the quick disconnect fittings. If I can help you again with certain GM info, let me know.

Mike

Mike now you got me confused........or this truck does.The adapter I have goes straight down like the oil filter would without a adapter.That's why it's such a problem to see the adapter O-ring.You got me now wondering if someone tampered with the truck before I got it.There isn't any bracket holding it to the frame.Tell you what.In the next couple of days I'll get batteries for the camera and take a pictures of the adapter I took off.:confused::confused:

Gary, sorry to confuse you, that wasn't my intention. Please reread my post #36 above, especially the bold sentence.

Mike

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Originally Posted by Mike52

Gary, sorry to confuse you, that wasn't my intention. Please reread my post #36 above, especially the bold sentence.

Mike

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I see it now Mike.I won't give any excuses.Aside from this repair job I did,I have come to the conclusion it time for some spring cleaning in the shop,so now that the truck is back and running,I have been hauling alot of scrap to the scrap yard and well I am bushed.

I wonder if that was a option on which models and why.The strangest thing I have read was parts for high lift models.....not sure what all that entails.