Rebuilding a 460, EFI or normally carb?

Hi, had a recent engine fire in my '63 Galaxie, with a transplanted 460, 4 speed manual, power brakes, mild cam, Holley 830 4 BBL with mechanical advance, MSD 6L.

here's the link:

Burnt Engine pictures by btsave - Photobucket

My question is... now that I need to replace the card, wiring, hoses, brake booster, belts, MSD, front harness... what can I do to both increase performance and, of primary importance, increase gas mileage? I currently get an average of just 6mpg which limits my enjoyment of the car.

I am considering an EFI... but don't know what choices I should consider nor whether a normally aspirated carb would be better... most of my experience has been on mouse motors, so this BBF is still relatively alien to me...

Any suggestions would be helpful at this point.

Thanks!

Bart in FL

"eye candy shot"
http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t...ngine/file.jpg

MSD has a new throttle body unit out that looks pretty good

You're going to get support on both sides here so I'll start. If it were mine I would be looking at one of the new self-learning EFI units that bolts on like a carb. MSD's new Atomic unit looks to be an all inclusive, compact package with only a few wires to hook up. FAST's EZ EFI is another, and Holley has one, too. I'm running the Edelbrock ProFlow XT, and as one of the first SBF packages out it was not self learn but it can be converted with the addition of a wide band O2 sensor and uploading a different firmware package, a two minute process. There're lots of other packages out there, with wide range of pricing.

The beauty of the EFI is that you can change your Air/Fuel map in easy stages, if you go into the self program mode, where with carbs you're going to be pulling it apart to re-jet primaries & secondaries chasing the "ideal mix". Also, with a ECU controlled distributor, timing changes are the same simple map change. I love the flexibility of tuning with EFI.

The new Atomic EFI from MSD is much more simpler than FAST or Holley. It does not require a return line, but you do need to mount a temp sensor and O2 sensor. Everything else like MAP and MAS are self contained in the unit itself.
Go to MSDignition.com and check it out. It ain't cheap but either are the other ones....it's $2290.

If fuel mileage is your priority, I believe you might still be disappointed with the engine even after installing an EFI conversion. The 460's were built for stump pulling torque, not economy. Even if it double your mileage, which is doubtful, it still isn't going to be that great....

As Dave S said a 460 and good gas mileage are seldom used in the same sentence. Cubic inches take lots of air-fuel mixture to be burned to move those trash can size pistons and a 4000 pound car (yeah it's about that heavy, I had one with a 406).

I'm looking very seriously at the MSD Atomic as a retrofit for my '31 but will wait until about this time next year as there really is very little experience since MSD just started shipping units about 6 weeks ago. As far as no return system - yes, to a point, but there is a questionnaire to determine yes or no for your use They do have a new forum just for these EFI that I joined a couple days ago, so will try to keep up to date on the development and make a decision in the fall.

Another way to go is the Megasquirt EFI - and they too have forums dedicated to this system. It's really a DIY install, can be a little frustrating from what I can see (the available info is kinda scattered) but you do have a choice of throttle body or direct injection. Then there are several levels of complexity. Cost wise - probably about the cheapest if you can source and build the modules.

The other systems - Roger seems to have the good info there:D

The 2 different 460 powered trucks I had ( 1970 & 1974 plus 1987 van) got 9 mpg towing Chaparal gooseneck trailer and race car---I also had 2 different Lincolns 1970 & 1978 that got damn good milage even at high speeds--I can't imagine what you have so screwed up to only get 6 mph

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Originally Posted by jerry clayton

The 2 different 460 powered trucks I had ( 1970 & 1974 plus 1987 van) got 9 mpg towing Chaparal gooseneck trailer and race car---I also had 2 different Lincolns 1970 & 1978 that got damn good milage even at high speeds--I can't imagine what you have so screwed up to only get 6 mph

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screwed up?

didn't the fact that my engine burned up give you any clue that something was amiss? :)

http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t...ne/file-19.jpg

seriously, had problems with the second 2 bbls opening at proper intervals, was still changing jets, needles, etc. to better tune the engine. At higher rpms, engine appeared starved... so ran rich while experimenting. I think the carb, which pre-dated modern ethanol enriched fuel, had suffered some internal deterioration which I had missed.
Not actually certain what caused the fire...
Bart

btsave...............saw the pics and sorry to see anyones ride go up in flames....good thing you're ok, that's the most important.... do you know what caused it?

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Originally Posted by sunsetdart

btsave...............saw the pics and sorry to see anyones ride go up in flames....good thing you're ok, that's the most important.... do you know what caused it?

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Not really certain, no fuel smell, no obvious electrical shorts... in fact engine was still running (idling) as the smoke & flames were billowing out. No fuel under the car and all clamps still in place. I popped the hood a crack and flooded the walls with water (only thing handy outside the car... fire extinguisher in the front seat, but I neglected to grab it & hesitated getting back into the car!) to drop the flames, then dumped a wet blanket over the engine to smother the rest of the flames. I think that possibly a piece of DEI under hood thermal lining may have come lose, fell onto the exhaust manifold and caught fire. The lining is fire/heat resistant to over 300 degrees, but not flame resistant at running manifold temperatures (over 500 degrees). If that happened the ensuing flames would have quickly spread to wiring, looms and them back to the rest of the thermal linings... the entire engine looks to be coated with rubber from the underside of the lining.... but this is just a guess as any excessive heat and flames would have had the same effect.

http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t...ine/file-8.jpg

i dont have any advice.
but god am i sorry that happened to you.

do you have an electric fuel pump?

What fuel pressure were you trying to run??

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jerry clayton

do you have an electric fuel pump?

What fuel pressure were you trying to run??

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Jerry,
Currently a mechanical,,gauge on carb melted at 7 #'s, which is about where it had been running 7 -11# on the gauge, if I go EFI with Atomic MSD, will obviously need to replace with the one in the kit.
Bart

way too much fuel pressure--probably flooded over the bowls/vents and at idle just kept pumping fuel---thats no wonder you only got around 6 mpg

If you were a government agency the i'd reccommend you use the most complicated fuel injection system that has the most amount of wireing, brain boxes, special pumps/filters/returns, get the internet-ready download compatable system that money can buy and a team of engineers/consultants/personal cunsultants to help you thru the adjustment process.
Since you are a regular guy i would reccommend a carburator and a nice screwdriver to get you thru the adjustment process.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ojh

Since you are a regular guy i would reccommend a carburator and a nice screwdriver to get you thru the adjustment process.

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Don't forget a low pressure gauge (less than 15 psi) and a vacuum gauge.:3dSMILE:

Not sure how many miles you drive your car, but the current EFI offerings are pretty expensive. If it were mine, I would consider a good quality carb and spend the difference on converting to an overdrive transmission. With the torque available in a 460 it would easily push that car along the highway at 1500 rpm, and with an AOD would still have good performance in the lower gears. Just something else to consider.

Whoops just re-read your post and see this is a 4 speed car. Converting to a 5 speed OD would be an option, but might be cost prohibitive. But you should be able to get pretty good money for your 4 speed from someone restoring to offset the cost.

Pat

Just an aside... I reported the claim to my new insurance company (Classic Collectors from Infinity Insurance) on Monday, March 5th. I get assigned an appraiser/ liaison (Mark), who I called & emailed on Tuesday, and was told he was not the assigned appraiser/liaison, who then gave me a different contact's info.

I then called this one (Jack), emailed as well and waited/ When no one had contacted me by Wednesday, I called them, emailed them and then contacted my insurance agent who called them. Finally, late Wednesday night, I get a call telling me that a local "investigator" (Alexandria) had been assigned and to contact her. So, I called her Thursday morning, 3/8, only to find out she would be away from 3/8 to 3/20! So, called, emailed, called my insurance agent... etc. Got back an email from Infinity (Jack) saying he was aware of the issue and that "have been working on securing another appraiser to inspect as I agree with you 17 days is too long. " Emailed again first thing this morning to him (Jack). Now, Friday, 3/9, still no information, no appraisal, nothing! I cannot get other cars out of my garage as the burnt one is blocking it, the car smells up the garage and it sickens me just looking at it every day!

Do not do business with that company (Classic Collectors from Infinity Insurance)! You get what you pay for.... no, actually less!!!

I had changed the policy to this new company, based on premium, in the middle of February at the recommendation of my insurance agent. My old insurance company, American Collectors (American Bankers), had been great, but the new premium was almost $1000 less! I had only 3 claims with American in 14 years, all of which were settled by going to a local body shop or ASE certified shop, who then submitted the appraisal and were paid within a day or two! Plus, they worked with each shop to make adjustments when additional damage was discovered! American Collectors Insurance rocks! The other? not so much!

Wow, what a run around! Sounds like once this is settled it's time to shop for a new insurance company. I am getting excellent service from Grundy and their premiums are very reasonable too. Good luck!

Pat

Oh, now they send me a claims form to fill out and send back to them with only a PO Box. When I called to get a physical address to OVERNIGHT to them at my expense, they tell me that the ONLY address I can use is the PO Box! OMG! Looks like they will do everything they can to delay settling a claim!
Bart

send them a sample of the fire!!!!!!!

I had a problem with a driver's ins company. His just parked Subaru rolled off an embankment and landed on the hood of my daughter's pick up when she was in college. After about 2-3 weeks of running her around with excuses as to why the estimator couldn't make a 20 mile drive, I got on the phone and described exactly how long it would take me to get to their office with my lawyer and what could happen. The estimator was there within an hour and settled the claim 100%. That company, was 20th Century(now 21st) - you know the one where the dweeb wrecks a couple of cars with a sledge hammer or a monster Caddy and then says it will fix them like new.

There are time when you just cannot be subtle any longer and have to threaten lawsuits - especially when the cause/blame is obvious

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Originally Posted by jerry clayton

send them a sample of the fire!!!!!!!

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great idea! Now how would I wrap the package ;) :)

Don't wrap it--hand deliver it!!!! PO Box--no problem--express mail


Contact State of Fla depart of motorvehicles/ insurance???? they have a system of settling claims--they will put pressure on the company

Good news, checks being sent to me for an initial $10k and change for repair of the engine. They've instructed the repair shop to do a Tear Down, to determine any additional damages as well! As long as we stay under 18k, the repairs will be covered. Over 18k and they will total the vehicle. Repair shops believes that we will be under that. Amazing how leaving a message for the CEO works wonders!
Bart :)
Will post "after pics" some time next week.

I’ve been reading this thread with a great deal of interest. I have never personally had a car fire, but have extinguished several and unfortunately watch one burn to the pavement before the local fire department could respond. Bart – I’m certainly glad you were not hurt in the fire. You can replace a lot of “stuff” for $18K, but you are not on that list!

As Jerry mentioned, the initial cause of the fire may have been too much fuel pressure. There probably will never be a way to tell for sure, but I would recommend keeping the pressure in the 5-6 pound range if you decide to go carbureted on the new engine.

My vote would be for carburetor as my sentimental side says a ’63 Galaxie should be that way! I’m not opposed to FI – especially in a car that has been redone in a “resto-mod” manner that is essentially an old body on a new frame kinda deal where one takes say a ’57 Chevy body and places it on a ZL1 frame and drive train. But your car appears to be a cruiser that has a bit of that classic nostalgia attached and a Holley four barrel seems right to me! As such, my vote goes to a 750 Holley with a pressure regulator set to 5psi and then see what kind of mileage this ol’ gal gets.

Didn’t see rear end ratio. You’re not running’ a 4:10 or some such are ya?? I think with a bit smaller carb and a reasonable read end – say 3:08 – 3:40ish – you should be able to crack 10mpg.

Good luck on this. Be sure and keep us informed as to how this turns out!

Regards,
Glenn

carb, AOD, 3.73's......and i second the fuel pressure at 5lbs

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Originally Posted by glennsexton

I’ve been reading this thread with a great deal of interest. I have never personally had a car fire, but have extinguished several and unfortunately watch one burn to the pavement before the local fire department could respond. Bart – I’m certainly glad you were not hurt in the fire. You can replace a lot of “stuff” for $18K, but you are not on that list!

As Jerry mentioned, the initial cause of the fire may have been too much fuel pressure. There probably will never be a way to tell for sure, but I would recommend keeping the pressure in the 5-6 pound range if you decide to go carbureted on the new engine.

My vote would be for carburetor as my sentimental side says a ’63 Galaxie should be that way! I’m not opposed to FI – especially in a car that has been redone in a “resto-mod” manner that is essentially an old body on a new frame kinda deal where one takes say a ’57 Chevy body and places it on a ZL1 frame and drive train. But your car appears to be a cruiser that has a bit of that classic nostalgia attached and a Holley four barrel seems right to me! As such, my vote goes to a 750 Holley with a pressure regulator set to 5psi and then see what kind of mileage this ol’ gal gets.

Didn’t see rear end ratio. You’re not running’ a 4:10 or some such are ya?? I think with a bit smaller carb and a reasonable read end – say 3:08 – 3:40ish – you should be able to crack 10mpg.

Good luck on this. Be sure and keep us informed as to how this turns out!

Regards,
Glenn

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Hi! thanks for the commentary.
Well, decided to go for a Holley EFI after all... cannot even tell it's there as we mounted the control box and remote under the front passenger side seat. Also, put in a new Aluminum radiator, rebuilt the transmission (new clutch plate, 1st gear, etc.) In the body shop now... doing something I may regret, in that I'm having the inside of the hood smoothed and painted same as the exterior of the car... not certain if I can accept it that way, but decided to try it out.... I am going to keep my eye out for a replacement original '63 hood just incase... Once completed and cleaned up I will post a link to the completed pictures...
Bart in FL
PS taking her to the NSRA Nationals in Pueblo, CO in June if anyone else is going, look for me to say "hi"~

Thanks for the follow up Bart. We'll be looking for the pictures and don't be too surprised when when someone grabs your hand at the NSRA Nats and asks, "Hey aren't you Bart? I recognize the car and I'm sure glad you both okay!"

Regards,
Glenn

Well, it's been a little while, so I thought I'd add an update on the '63 Galaxie.
1, Body work completed, had to redo the smoothed interior hood as the added material was too heavy and the hood needed upgraded hinges... wasn't worth it, so redid it back to original, looks GREAT!
2, EFI worked out like WOW! smooth curve all the way up the acceleration curve! Easy start! I'm sold on EFI for all my future projects! Used the Holley EFI system and love the ability to make adjustments with the handheld WHILE DRIVING!
3, Cooling issues finally resolved. Required new water pump, larger mechanical fan, a larger diameter radiator & an electric fan (AC) which stays on after the engine turns off until temp drops down under 199.
4, Still having issues with the manual shifter binding up... tried everything here, including a rebuild on the shifter and shaving the rods to try an resolve the issue. Transmission was also rebuilt and, when the shifter works, works like a champ.
4, Decided to put in a TCI Street Fighter 3 speed automatic. If anyone is looking for a 4 speed manual, rebuilt, let me know. Otherwise, I'll put it on eBay.

Couple of pictures:

http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t...0/7a6b8a1d.jpg
http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t...0/1feaa13f.jpg

PM me with details of the four speed

Jerry

gathering the numbers for you.