Octane Booster Fuel Additives - Opinions/Facts Needed!

OK, I have a 350 with unknown guts, Edlebrock 650 CFM 4-barrel carb, Edlebrock Performer intake manifold with headers. The engine was built by a shop in Missouri (data plate on block with only serial number) and it kicks #ss when its running right.

My problem is detonation (knocks) when accelerating. Spoke with my mechanic about this and he recommended a fuel additive that he is super-pumped about (and a dealer for).

The cider is called DLEF All-Purpose Fuel Treatment and is produced by David Liles, Liles Oil Company Inc. It is listed as a "Cetane & Octane Booster" and has ethanol in it.

I tried it, bam! no knocks!!! Seems to work great!

So what is the problem? I've moved away from my mechanic and this stuff isn't the easiest to find where I live now.

I always fill with premium (93) and add 16 oz to a 17 gallon tank. It seems obvious to me that the extra octane is what is getting rid of the knocks but maybe there are other ways to get the knocks out and enhance performance???

I now use this car as my primary rig and don't like the knocks!

Anyone have any good ideas/opinions/facts about these "snake oil" products?

I built a sbc a few years ago that I thought would run on the 93, but got knocks..It cost me more but I would run 110 with the 93 half and half. ran fine and if I wanted to play a little harder I just didn't run the 93. In town here there is a Co-Op the owner is a circle burner and the have 110 at the pump island.

I used to use 104 octane booster, about the same mix ratio as the product you mentioned.... Now I just run them on E-85, lots of octane and cheaper then premium!!!

I had not considered E-85 which might be your answer, but have you tried backing down the timing a few degrees? Octane simply slows down the burn time in the cylinders which reduces peak pressures and thus eliminates knock. Retarding your timing has the same affect, and unless your base compression ratio is way high you should be able to de-tune it to run on available premium pump gas without knocks.

Charlie, thanks to you I am on the search...but driving it as much as I do I hope I find it close! Someone in St. Augustine told me where I could find 104 from a pump. But he may have been on the beach too long.

Dave. care to elaborate? E-85 is a 15% ethanol right? Here in the sunshine state we have up to 10% ethanol on three different rankings (87, 90 & 93 if you believe thet pump text). In getting ready to put this question out to the world I read the bottle of the stuff that I am pouring in the tank and see that it is ethanol too!!!!

When you say you "run them on E-85, lots of octane and cheaper than permium" my simple mind gets confused. Do you still use additives or just E-85 and what the hey is E-85?

Not to mention WTH is cetane?

Back to the original question it sounds like I need to find the best (highest octane) gas that I can. Doesn't sound like others have found the same perfomance from additives.

But I love all of the opinions! I need help in running my engine right at a reasonable cost!

With as many engines that I know are out there, there has to be as many opinions about fuel!

E85 is 85% ethanol, generally runs about 106 octane. Most folks don't have any use for ethanol but we've been running it for 5 or 6 years now in drag cars and circle track cars. Not as efficient as gasoline so you have to pump more of it to the engine. Takes some reworking on the carb, too. But when things are set up right, it really works good FOR ME!!!! Don't have any idea what the availability is around your area, here in the cornbelt it's available most everywhere....

Also might want to check into a water/methanol injection system... There's a number of companies making them, my experience is with one made by Snow....used it on a blown car with a boost reference system, worked great!!!!

Cetane is the rating system for diesel fuel.

What are your running for an ignition system and timing??? Sometimes you can pull a few degrees of advance out of the engine in the rpm range where it rattles and cure the problem, too...

Mark Thomas has campaigned a E85 funny car for yrs.

Race on E85

I had a stroked BB Mopar,,11.5-1cr,,and ran Maxrace additive,,not a lot,,a 400gram can,nearly full,in a tank of 96 unleaded to get the knock out of the engine..Ran good and hard..Worked well,but wasnt too cheap..:(

Thanks for all the replies, I guess that Roger and I must have posted at the same time cuz I just saw his reply.

That may be the deal though, I hadn't thought about it before. I guess that a couple of degrees might do the trick without losing too much HP or torque.

Lamin8r have you tried setting your timing back a mark or two?

Thanks all! I'll let you know how it works! But for the time being I'm heading back to my "snake oil" supplier and get another case:o

you may not want to work on your engine any but a few times iv`e had to run double head gaskets to get out of a too high of compression problem ..

Reading through this thread makes me wonder if you might have too much/too fast mechanical (centrifugal) advance internal to the distributor - wrong, weak or broken spring or maybe someone before you decided to elongate the slots or maybe they are just worn. I used the wrong spring pair arrangement in my MSD distributor and did it rattle under low speed load -

Hmmmm, there is another thing that I hadn't thought of Dave...I had only considered this as a by-product of high compression.:confused: or perhaps an advanced timing (from other comments) But this would have the same effect wouldn't it? Thanks for the idea!!!

I need to get in touch with the folks that built the engine and get more info on the engine, see how high the compression is, what kind of cam etc.

Thanks for all the help!

Hoss, once I find out about the compression that idea might be a winner!!!:3dSMILE:

Did you ever have any other problems as a result of the double gaskets? Same torque on the head bolts right?

Thanks Roger, I guess that it's time to get the timing light out and put it too work!

Kind of wish I had one of those handheld calibrators though...:D

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Originally Posted by rspears

Eric,
On my 347 I can simply use my handheld calibrator to do a global timing adjustment, backing out two or three degrees of spark across the board until I get back to a known, consistent fuel..

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Showoff! :3dSMILE::):LOL::D:toocool::rolleyes::rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by 34_40

Showoff! :3dSMILE::):LOL::D:toocool::rolleyes::rolleyes:

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Hey, just one of the benefits of EFI!! I was just trying to reinforce that it should be easy and effective to back down the timing a notch or two, at least per the Edelbrock tech's...

One thing I've learned from this - I chased the story on ethanol octane rating based on Dave's statements about using E85. From what I read, pure ethanol has an octane rating of ~110, and Dave told us that E85 is ~106. The problem I have is that ethanol blends have a "shelf life" of around two weeks before they go into a phase seperation from absorbing water, and when that happens they lose four or five numbers on octane rating - if you buy 91octane that has 10% ethanol it starts absorbing water from the atmosphere immediately, and if you park for a few weeks or months you'll have 85 to 86 octane fuel, with water laden alcohol which may not be really good for your performance engine looking for 91 or better. Not a problem for your DD that gets refilled regularly, but for a car sitting all winter I'd worry about what's happening in the system. Not sure how this applies to E85 - maybe Dave can educate us?

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Originally Posted by rspears

Hey, just one of the benefits of EFI!! I was just trying to reinforce that it should be easy and effective to back down the timing a notch or two, at least per the Edelbrock tech's...

One thing I've learned from this - I chased the story on ethanol octane rating based on Dave's statements about using E85. From what I read, pure ethanol has an octane rating of ~110, and Dave told us that E85 is ~106. The problem I have is that ethanol blends have a "shelf life" of around two weeks before they go into a phase seperation from absorbing water, and when that happens they lose four or five numbers on octane rating - if you buy 91octane that has 10% ethanol it starts absorbing water from the atmosphere immediately, and if you park for a few weeks or months you'll have 85 to 86 octane fuel, with water laden alcohol which may not be really good for your performance engine looking for 91 or better. Not a problem for your DD that gets refilled regularly, but for a car sitting all winter I'd worry about what's happening in the system. Not sure how this applies to E85 - maybe Dave can educate us?

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And right you are Roger! I guess it is one of the perks of going electronic.. I've been curious also what may/will happen to our cars with the newer fuels. I've added stabilizer but am not sure if it's enough? Let's see what others think!?!?!

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Originally Posted by Hot Rod Surfer

Thanks for all the replies, I guess that Roger and I must have posted at the same time cuz I just saw his reply.

That may be the deal though, I hadn't thought about it before. I guess that a couple of degrees might do the trick without losing too much HP or torque.

Lamin8r have you tried setting your timing back a mark or two?


Thanks all! I'll let you know how it works! But for the time being I'm heading back to my "snake oil" supplier and get another case:o

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Yes,Eric..we did..still ran harder with the booster,,hauled some serious a$$,as you would expect with 451 inches of mad Mopar...and a fair bit of fruit stuffed inside it..:D:D

Hey, just wanted to let you know how things went with my snake oil!!!

I did get another case, but felt like I was sneaking power additives in the dead of the night!:eek:

So the next time I tuned it (needed it pretty badly too) I just retarded the timing a bit, cleaned up the carb, and reset the idle.

Yahooooo, now I'm running on 89 octane without a hint of a knock and just a little bit milder than before!!!

But when I was messing around (before the tune up) I came up with another question...

I used to use Chevron 93 octane, thought techron was the cats meow, and had to use octane adder to get rid of the detonation. But for other reasons, I changed over to Gate gas and was able to run their 93 octane without any knocks??:whacked: Tried the 89 octane and the knocks were back...before the tune up anyway.

So there must be a difference between Chevron and Gates fuel! :HMMM:

Anyone else notice any difference between any fuel? What is your favorite?

Inquiring minds have to know!

Don't know the Gates brand, but Techron is Chevron/Texaco's detergent additive. Great for keeping valve deposits down (big potential problem for port injected engines), but not intended to do anything for octane rating. Techron used to be the standard of the industry, probably still is, though the Shell detergent looks to be very effective as well.

Don't they also make sbc head gaskets in various thicknesses? I know they do for Olds engines because we were looking at them in Summits catalog.


Don

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Originally Posted by Bob Parmenter

Shell detergent looks to be very effective as well.

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Now I'm, again, disillusioned - that they have something else? Shell has been saying for the past couple of years that their big cleaner/upper is .... nitrogen !!! Both Kevin Harvick and Kurt Busch said so.

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Originally Posted by IC2

Now I'm, again, disillusioned - that they have something else? Shell has been saying for the past couple of years that their big cleaner/upper is .... nitrogen !!! Both Kevin Harvick and Kurt Busch said so.

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Yeah, my guess is they have a detergent that contains nitrogen molecules.......whoopie......but it makes for a marketing differentiation perhaps. Sorta like the old Pennzoil promotion of Z7 which was essentially the same/similar ZDDP anti-wear that any quality/qualified oil had, but they found a "clever" way to promote it. If you're interested in reading a bit more about detergents in gasoline look up "top tier detergent gasoline".

I like the BP and add MM oil, I remember Sunoco 260 wish they would bring that back to the pumps. The good old fun days.

Seeing as how this 'ol thread was about fuel, anyone tried, heard about, or ran the "oxygenated race gas". Couple guys said they were running it at the digs end of last summer, anybody have anything on it or was I just being told a tale?? Their story was they used much less per pass and it still had a 108 octane.....

Just read about this stuff when I was looking for E-85 around Vilano Beach I think they had a leaded one too, seemed a bit spendy for my needs but racing???Hmmmmm...vpracingfuels.com

VP100 (aka StreetBlaze 100)
Oxygenated with ethanol, this CARB-legal fuel is specifically engineered for high-performance street cars including sport compacts, muscle cars, street rods and more. It's environmentally friendly and street legal throughout the U.S. In applications with anything from 4- to 12-cyclinders or engines equipped with a turbocharger, supercharger or nitrous oxide system (NOS), VP100 will generate optimum power and performance. In turbocharged or supercharged applications, it allows an increase in boost without fear of detonation. NOS users can also leverage their higher octane ratings to step up to a more powerful nitrous oxide system. Dyno tests with a turbocharged application proved VP100 generates up to 14% more horsepower compared to premium grade 91 octane unleaded gasoline. Designed for use in cast-iron head engines with CRs up to 13:1 and aluminum head engines up to 14:1. Works well on the latest generation of electronically-controlled turbo engines. Contains no metal compounds and won't harm catalytic converters or oxygen sensors.

Yeah Eric, I read that deal on the VP site.... Doesn't really say what they're doing to it, got to be more then just dropping in a big shot of ethanol though, isn't it???? We've ran everything from 10% to 100% ethanol, blended it with everything from pump gas regular to VP race gas.... Trying to figure out what the heck they're adding that they give it the "oxygenated" name??

Where the heck are all our on site chemists, anyway???:LOL::LOL:

Eric, what did you end up running in yours for the street?

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Originally Posted by Dave Severson

.................got to be more then just dropping in a big shot of ethanol though, isn't it????

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No, probably not. Without actual tech data can't say for sure, but ethanol is an oxygenate. So is NOS, and nitromethane, so was MTBE before being banned by EPA for fuel....................but the term oxygenate must resonate with some catagory or other of consumer. Could be a way of boosting or regaining sales lost to E85 to street driven muscle guys.

Thanks Uncle Bob--guess we should have been putting our "oxygenated" mixtures in a 55 gal. drum and selling them for ridiculous amount of money per gallon years ago, huh????:LOL::LOL:

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Originally Posted by Dave Severson

Eric, what did you end up running in yours for the street?

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Now I'm down to 89 octane from my friendly Gate dealer, not so sure that I could use the Chevron 89 though...

Whatever, at least I'm not sneaking down to Oviedo to buy cases of snake oil:D

But after reading the vp racing stuff ("oxygenated with ethanol"?? isn't that what I get at the pump with up to 10% ethanol?:confused:)and noticing the difference between suppliers, it sounds like it is all snake oil!!!!:eek:

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Originally Posted by Hot Rod Surfer

Now I'm down to 89 octane from my friendly Gate dealer, not so sure that I could use the Chevron 89 though...

Whatever, at least I'm not sneaking down to Oviedo to buy cases of snake oil:D

But after reading the vp racing stuff ("oxygenated with ethanol"?? isn't that what I get at the pump with up to 10% ethanol?:confused:)and noticing the difference between suppliers, it sounds like it is all snake oil!!!!:eek:

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I don't believe the 10% does enough to help anything--no science behind this other then drag race and street time, but it seems to me that the "oxygenated" benefits of ethanol blended with gas didn't do much good performance wise til we hit about the 30% to 35% level. We used to blend off the E-10 you get at the pump, but now that we can buy E-85 around here we've been blending with that up to 100% ethanol, and that takes some substantial carb mods.... Got to go find me some of that VP stuff and take it up to my buddies at the college and have them test it.... Meanwhile, guess we'll just keep stumbling along....