How to shorten a small block Ford.

Any of us who play with Ford small blocks know two things for sure. First of all they cost a lot more to build than a sbc, and secondly they are l- o- n -g! Most of the block is really compact, but it is the timing chain cover and water pump that stick way out there, making swapping them into lots of cars tough.

When I built my 27 roadster way back when I used a 302 Ford, but because there were no short water pump setups that I knew about at the time my pulley to radiator clearance was very tight. Consequently, I had to use a very short electric fan that didn't have many cfms to it. Now that I am redoing the car I decided to cure that problem once and for all by putting on one of the Ford Racing short water pumps that pick up about 1 1/2 to 1 3/4 inches of room. I thought it would be easy, but Ford threw me a wrench by discontinuing some of the parts needed to make this swap.

I guess Ford has cut back on lots of "old" parts because of their financial situation, and these Ford Racing parts were some of the ones to go. What it takes to make the swap are:

1) The short water pump itself, part number M-8501-E351S about $ 139.00

2) The correct timing cover is part number M-6059-D351 about $ 125.00

3) Pulley set M-8509 Q..............no longer available from Ford.

However, I was determined to end up with a shorter setup, so when I struck out at Summit (they had the water pumps but no timing cover) I called Jegs. Luckily, they had the water pump and timing housing.....I was part way there.

For the pulleys I first called Ford to confirm they were no longer available, and found out they were not. So I called March Mfg. March is right down the road from me in Naples Florida, and they are USELESS! They could care less if they help you or not, and were extremely dry on the phone, like he couldn't be bothered. (I had the same experience with them 2 years ago when trying to convert my Son Don's 306 Ford from serpentine to V belt.) All the guy would say is "Ford discontinued them and we never made them. Goodbye!":mad:

So I called Zoops Products and the guy there was VERY helpful. Turns out they do make the exact pulleys I need for this setup, and here are the part numbers:

1) Water pump pulley, part number 6011, about $ 81.00

2) Crank pulley, part number 6012, about $ 72.00

However, to use the crank pulley you MUST use Ford Racing SFI approved harmonic balancer part number M-6316-C351, about $ 250.00.

After mounting it all up I found that my crank pulley sits 3/16 too far in to line up with the water pump pulley, but the guy at Zoops told me that might happen. Ford has so many variations that Zoops offers several thicknesses of spacers to use, but you have to mount the pulley first to see how far off you are. Tonight I ordered the 3/16 spacer from Zoops @ $ 32.00

So, my short water pump setup ended up costing me about $ 700 so far, and I still haven't gotten my alternator to determine what bracketry I will need to mount it in the new shorter position. Zoops makes those brackets too (Don has one on his 306), so when I get the alternator I'll go from there.

I would caution anyone thinking of doing this to move quickly as the timing covers seem to be getting a little hard to find, but Jegs told me they do have some yet. Summit does not, and Ford Racing does not. I took some pictures of the various components and how the short one compares to the regular Ford setup. I will have to post them in two posts, as this forum only allows 4 images per post.

First of all, here is what the long pump looks like in my Son's T, and the second picture is how the short setup looks in the same profile. His measures 6.25 from water pump flange surface to tip of pulley, and mine measures 4.75. You can also see the misalignment on mine that will require the 3/16 spacer.

Here are some other shots of the various parts that make this work. I hope this helps anyone thinking of doing this. I have a lot of time on the phone and on the internet getting the correct part numbers so if I can save someone else that time and effort I am happy to post this.

Don

Great information and write up Don. The only thing that would concern me about this set up would be down the road if the water pump fails that a replacement would be available....but I suppose if nothing else you might be able to find a place to rebuild it.

Don, here's another source for you....scroll down 1/2 page to shortie pump....
http://www.snowwhiteltd.com/products.htm

Mike, I considered the same possibility but the pumps seem to be not the problem availability wise. I think they are actually from an Explorer or something similar. The timing covers and pulleys seem to be the discontinued items.

Richard, I did consider the Snow White setup but it uses something like an Opel water pump I think and I had concerns about how much water flow it had. I could be stone wrong on that concern, but I also wanted to try the Ford setup just because it was Ford.

Don

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Itoldyouso

Mike, I considered the same possibility but the pumps seem to be not the problem availability wise. I think they are actually from an Explorer or something similar. The timing covers and pulleys seem to be the discontinued items.

Richard, I did consider the Snow White setup but it uses something like an Opel water pump I think and I had concerns about how much water flow it had. I could be stone wrong on that concern, but I also wanted to try the Ford setup just because it was Ford.

Don

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Don,
Just curious what you heve planned to do with the heater inlet and outlet on the water pump. I have basically the same water pump setup on a 5.0 motor I have installed in my 32. I will not be using a heater so I am trying to come up with a clever way to eleminate the pressed in steel tubes. My first thought was to remove the tubes and pipe tap the holes in the housing for pipe plugs but when measuring the diameters of the tubes the holes would have to be opened up and my concern was that there is not enough material left to tap. I have seen a length of hose formed in a U-shape clamped to the outlets but I don't care for the looks of that. I have toyed with the ides of cutting the tubes so they stick out maybe 1/2", machine a plug and heli-ard the tubes shut. Any thoughts on what you might be doing?

I assume you will not be running a heater in southern Florida.:cool:

Also, we come to Marco Island in Jan & Feb, any car shows you could recommend in southern Florida?

Regards

If you are around in late February go to Billetproof in Ocala. It was held at Don Garlits place for the first two years but has outgrown it, so they are now holding it at the place shown in the flyer below.

As for the heater hose outlets, not sure yet. I may run some hoses from there to a remote radiator and fan in the rear. This thing always ran warm because of my 8.5 inch chopped 32 radiator. If the bigger electric fan and shroud I will build doesn't do it I might have to go to that arrangement. But I like your ideas of capping these off.

Don

Don thanks for the info! It's nice when someone like you paves the way for others with like ideas. I miss my 289/302 mustang, and hope one day to build a new one. I feel the same way about my 460 venture. Hard to find Ford parts to go with modified setups! I guess the journey makes the end all the more sweet!:cool:

I guess so Steve, but man are Chevys a lot easier to play with! :p Ford loves to change things just for the sake of changing them and you are never sure what parts are going to work with other parts. When I was helping Don figure out the pulleys on his T bucket we kept air freighting different ones in because no one at Summit, Jegs or March could tell us exactly what would work, it was all trial and error. Then there is that 28 oz and 50 oz imbalance thing and 157 vs 164 tooth flywheels. :eek:

Could be worse I guess, I could be playing with Hemis. :D

Don

".......Then there is that 28 oz and 50 oz imbalance thing and 157 vs 164 tooth flywheels.

Could be worse I guess, I could be playing with Hemis......"

:LOL::LOL: Don't forget Fords 141 tooth Mustang II only flywheel (ask me how I know).

But now I've moved on to bigger and better things.....try mixing and matching parts on big inch caddy motors......and I thought a Hemi was expensive :eek:

"So I called March Mfg. March is right down the road from me in Naples Florida, and they are USELESS! They could care less if they help you or not, and were extremely dry on the phone, like he couldn't be bothered."

I had only one experience with March and it was the same as yours. You'd think a company in this economy would be chasing a sale like a male teenager chasing a female teenager! Boggles the imagination! I won't waste my time ever again with them!
Thanks for all your hard efforts.

Like you, I was surprised at the cold reception I got from March. I mean, here I am, practically in their back yard, and they were really indifferent to trying to answer my questions. During that first episode a couple years ago the guy was more interested in telling me they don't sell retail and that I was not welcome to visit their business to try to sort out what products of theirs I could buy that would work. Instead I had to air freight 3 different setups from Summit and finally end up with a combination that would work.

This time I figured I just got one guy who was having a bad day, but it was exactly the same reception I got the first time...........very unconcerned and unhelpful. I guess March has so many customers through their distributors that they don't need any more ! :confused: So now my opinion is that I wouldn't buy a March product if my life depended on it. :p Too bad too, because their stuff seems to be pretty nice. Zoops was just the opposite and were great to deal with.

Don

My experience with March was "deal with it!" I wanted a stock set of pulleys, their setups for a 460 either overdrive your water pump or under drive your alternator. For the prices they charge I would think they would try to be a little friendlier too. Most Part makers in the industry have bent backwards to help me along the way on my truck build, but I would agree March is a bottom dweller. The problem is there are very few aftermarket pulley makers, so I guess they can sqeeze by with poor customer service. I've got march alternator brackets so I guess I have to be gratefull that they even make those!:CRY:

Wow those are some sharp pullies, Itoldyouso.
Wonder if they make any for the clevelands?
Kurt

Speedway Motors has the front covers for cheap and balancers with multiple spacer combinations. On a new water pump, you can pull it apart and press the hub on the shaft to your desired position to fit odd pully combinations.

Just a random thought here, but for the heater hose tubes if you're not going to use them, why not cut the tubes off flush and use some of those bolt in rubber expanding plugs like those quicky replacement freeze plugs? A plated fender washer dropped on over the top and replace the regular open nut with a plated crown closed end nut?

That would probably work too. I think what I'll do in the beginning is simply use a couple of those crutch tip thingies and hose clamps to get it running. Once I figure out if I am going to need the remote cooler in the back or not I can either cut them off or not. Things like those hose barbs sticking up would drive my Son Dan nuts until he machined some plugs to go in there and make them look smoother............me, I don't get too hung up on letting them bother me. As long as they don't leak I would be fine with them sticking up there.:D:D

Don