I am debating on whether to use a 4 link suspention a an old school ladder, it is going on a 55 f100 with a 9in rear end, I'm not looking to race just cruz, any and all input welcome. :toocool:
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I am debating on whether to use a 4 link suspention a an old school ladder, it is going on a 55 f100 with a 9in rear end, I'm not looking to race just cruz, any and all input welcome. :toocool:
Personally, for a cruiser I'd lean toward a triangulated 4 bar, but that's just me. Having said that I had good luck back in the 70's with a ladder set up under my panel truck. Drove it all over the country pulling a pop-up camper and did a little time at the track too.
My vote is for the ladder bar easy to install and adjust and will still hookup if ever needed
Hard to beat the triangulated 4 bar on the street.... When set up correctly, the offer both good handling and a smooth ride.....
Yup, tried & true.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Severson
I have done some research and decided to go with the 4 link, it seems that the ladder bar system was designed more for the track and will not handle well around turns or on the street. thank you for your input.
If it's handling around corners on the street your after I'd look into the triangulated 4 bar. Just sayin'.
4 link is a good way to go but i would used a panhard bar and not a track link bar if you go tri anglated bar then no need for a track bar .but i used ladder bars with floaters and that rides very good
OMG, not the dreaded Panhard bar :eek:**):whacked::HMMM::rolleyes::LOL:Quote:
Originally Posted by pat mccarthy
Hey Severson, dial 911....
HE! HE! HE! Thats a good one Tech.
I guess the rest of us should learn from your example.
So if someone ever wants to name a street after me
I'll make sure it's not running thru the middle of the
city's trash dump. Kurt
Please educate or entertain me. Why do you say, "OMG, not the dreaded Panhard bar"?Quote:
Originally Posted by techinspector1
Because a Watt's linkage is much better... A panhard bar pushes to one side, a Watt's linkage keeps the rear end centered.
yes a watts is better so beat me with the panhard bar i road in on :D but if the angle on the panhard is right its not going to pull. has abit to do with travel .but i do take some of that if any .then a strait line only track link that the car is going to plow thru a sharp corner on the street and over all suck some link needs to be made from the center of mass is best to the rear end to the frame to keep the rear end from moving a tri angle bar from the lowers controll bars just do not work that hot on the streetQuote:
Originally Posted by Dave Severson
your at the lowest part :LOL::LOL: but alot of them cars run 3.5 front tires so .i was only the very few that like to hang one out thru a corner .i did the back 1/2 of my gto back mild 80s i moved the stock gm springs in used a ladder bar and a panhard bar built it all with a craftman welder and a hack saw.the car would take a corner . i pickup a better paying job and pick up some low line coil overs and had a pro builder re do the job i did .well i going thru the work out it was pro built now ??? well before the apex of the corner i found the car still running just about strait and allmost a t full lock:eek: he used a track link bar car was only good for strait line after that.here she is the 100 over like to eat starters
All that is very true Pat..... Unfortunately, most of the Panhard bars I've seen are put on at the wrong angles, and or are built too short and the rear end moves (acutally pushes the body weight mass) all in one direction.... When set up right, a Panhard bar can be advantageous on a circle burner. But, on the street, the neutral movement, non-binding, non-pushing Watts linkage is still the best!!!! Probably splitting hairs, but when you're going to all the effort of building a good handling car, why not go with the best setup for lateral control????? But hey, sometimes I just seem to enjoy creating extra work for myself!!!!!!!!:whacked::LOL::LOL::LOL:
if i ever build another cars it will have a watts . with my car i laid the panhard at not much angle 66gto is wide .cars like willys when the axles you can put in a shoe box any way you go it going to be hard to make it corner cutter
If you haven't figured it out yet Florida.... the "dreaded Panhard bar" has been an item of discussion on this forum at least once a year probably since a week after CHR was created!!!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by florida
Anyway, every time the "discussion" comes up, we all choose sides and pound on each other for a week, then "the dreaded Panhard bar" discussion just goes away again!!!!!!!:LOL::LOL::LOL:
no i am done
Geez, ya mean you don't wanna play this year Pat???????:LOL:Quote:
Originally Posted by pat mccarthy
PS--That picture of your Goat is great!!! What a gorgeous car!!! Pontiac sure did know how to build them back when Uncle John was there and they actually had a styling department!!!!!!
I too need a education. I thought the upper " triangulated" bars negated the need for the panhard bar or watts linkage. I drove my 34 3/W many years with the triangulated 4 bar set up without a panhard or watts and liked how it handled on the street and at the strip the few times I raced it there. I admit to being a complete dummy when it comes to knowing what great handling cars drive like so maybe I need a education on what I have been missing. I have been re-doing the 34 for some time now and planed on leaving the 4 bar as is. I may need to re-think this.
Jack.
You don't have to run a Watts linkage or Panhard bar with a triangulated 4 link..... But it does keep the car "hooked up" better in turns. For the street, a Watt's linkage can use urethene bushed ends which kills the noise of heim joints. In normal driving, probably never even notice the Watt's linkage is there but when you start really stuffing the car into turns, you'll definitely notice the increased stability. Leaf springs and curvy roads shouldn't even be in the same sentence....no tunability in ride or handling with a leaf spring. With coilovers you can change the spring rate, go to a progressive rate coil, change the ride height, play with the shock valving, etc. etc. Do you need all this on the street for normal driving???? Heck no. But if we only put the things on a car it had to have, it wouldn't even be a Hot Rod, would it????
I was actually responding to Jack's post, too. and, as I said, you don't need this for normal street driving....
As for adding springs to old springs, think I'd probably spend a couple extra bucks and get new springs rated correctly for the weight and desired ride of the truck.....
Also, I did not say leaf springs weren't part of Hot Rods, i said they have no tuneability....
Dave,
Thanks for the reply. It sounds like handling can be improved with a panhard, although clearing the exhaust might be a problem. You mentioned leaf springs in your reply; I am using the original coil springs (bed springs) from the 4 bar setup of the 66 GTO rear in the 34. Of course they are not the same as leafs but they still don't have the adjustment of coil overs. Maybe I should look at coil overs. I hope things aren't getting too complicated.
Jack.
Good choice on the 4 link, a triangulated 4 link should fit the bill just fine for a very streetable setup....Quote:
Originally Posted by lcacnav75
I wasn't referring to your car about the leaf springs... The coil springs work good, one of the reasons I prefer a coil over unit is that both the spring and shock are one unit and take up less space and leave plenty of room for exhaust, even with a Watt's linkage. I like to place the bottom mount of the coilover as far outboard as possible with the tops angled in to the center of the car at about 25 degrees to improve ride stability. I also like to weigh my cars before I select the coil spring weight for the rear end....if you have access to a set of scales it is certainly better then guessing at the weight.... One final thing, when you determine the weight of the car and the spring rate required, remember that the weight of the rear end complete is unsprung weight and should be deducted from the rear weight of the car.... Seems a lot of the newer techs (:rolleyes:) at the parts stores and manufacturer's don't take this into consideration!!!!! Jerry Clayton pointed this out the other day....I made a couple calls and guess what???? Jerry is (as usual) right on the money!!!!!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack F
Dave,
Thanks again, most helpful information.
Jack.
Jack, let me see if I can unshroud this Panhard bar thing for you. It is unclear whether René Panhard or Émile Levassor or one of their hired engineers came up with the Panhard bar, but I'm pretty sure that whomever came up with it, they installed the bar with the longest possible length to fit into the car and also installed it parallel with the road surface to prevent pre-loading one side of the car or the other from the neutral ride height position.
http://www.citroenet.org.uk/panhard-...anhard-01.html
Now, along comes some of us goofy hot-rodders and the Panhard bar looks like a good, cheap, easy way to prevent lateral body movement in relation to the differential housing and it is. Problem arises when the builder fails to take into consideration that the bar must be as long as possible to keep the degree of angularity as low as possible and prevent jerking the body laterally on bump and rebound.
Proper bar construction and installation would dictate that mounts would be constructed to attach to the frame and to the housing that would allow the attachment ends of the bar to be right at the brake backing plates on each side of the car, thus allowing the longest possible bar length within the space available. The bar doesn't necessarily have to be straight, it can be curved or bent up like a pretzel, so long as the attachment points are as far as possible apart from each other and each attachment points are parallel with the road surface and the material used is stiff enough to resist deflection. That's where the Panhard bar gets its bad name, when shadetree engineers make the bar short because it is easy and expedient to do so. In my experience on this rock, I have figured out that if anything can be FUBAR'd, human beings can and will do it.
Bottom line: A properly engineered and installed Panhard bar will do a fine job of locating the differential laterally to the body. Not as precisely as a Watt's Link, but good enough. The key is the length of the bar and having both attachment points parallel with the track surface at ride height.
Here's a hastily-drawn diagram carried out to the point of silliness to illustrate my meaning......
:LOL: Just illustrating a point that the bar can be bent up to clear other components and still meet the engineering criteria required to make it work properly.:DQuote:
Originally Posted by TO-FAST-4U
Here's another illustration of one of the abortions we most normally see, engineered and installed by Billy Joe Bob....
Billy Joe Bob is a great guy, Just needs to suspend his suspension engineering. :LOL:
Technoman,
You don't mind if I give you a new nick name do you:3dSMILE:. I just hate to type anymore than I have to. The fact that I even typed that last sentence shows you how smart i am:o. Anyway, that drawing of the pretzel panhard bar makes me wonder how much lateral support it can give. It looks like I need to find a way to make a straight (or as straight as I can) panhard bar as long as I can, horizontal to the road surface, and still avoid the exhaust. This is going to take some doing. I will see what I can do:HMMM:.
Jack.
1. Technoman is fine with me. It's just that my mind works in mysterious ways and I enjoy conveying my opinion on technical things to other people. I will always endeavor to use sound engineering and math principles in my replies.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack F
2. You're apparently an intelligent person and so I'm sure you realize that I was just trying to make a point about the fact that the bar could be bent up any way you want it as long as the attachment points are the same distance from the track surface (level) and the bar is as long as possible within the confines of the available space. As I said, the material used for such a pretzel bar would have to be stiff enough to prevent deflection.
Technoman,
Yes, I know it was just a illustration. Some times my humor (?) hides the obvious:o .
Jack.
It's all good.:DQuote:
Originally Posted by Jack F