test results back from hydrogen

Here is some electrochemistry data:

http://www.nyu.edu/classes/tuckerman..._26/node5.html

This shows that it only takes about 1.229 volts to electrolyze water to H2 and O2 at 1 atm.

Other data from various sources:

K(+) + e- -> K, E = -2.93 volts
Na(+) + e- -> Na, E=-2.71 volts

Eu(+3) + 3e- -> Eu, E= -2.41 volts
Eu(+3) + e- -> Eu(+2), E= -0.37 volts

This other data shows that at 12 volts water will electrolyze easily but as long as there is water there to electrolyze the other things like K(+), Na(+) and Eu(+3) will not plate out of solution so either of them could be used but what is KOH going to do other than enhance conductance of current through the cell (I note K(+) is actually one of the best conducting positive ions). Note that it only takes 0.37 volts to reduce Eu(+3) to Eu(+2) and that is within the voltage of the 1.229 volts that is electrolyzing the water so that can be going on during the water dissociation. Therefore, while I do not really know what "Catalyst" is in the powder given with some kits, the idea of EuCl3 should be a possible catalyst. Maybe just KOH is worth the added conductivity but I see no other catalytic function of the KOH. As to R. Pope's analysis it means that mooneye777 needs to keep a better log of the amount of water used for how many miles traveled. I have no doubt that SOME (H2 + O2) is formed, but as R. Pope says it seems like a small amount. Since O2 is formed we should also consider the effect of the O2 sensor in the Saturn. This stuff is exciting and interesting but may turn out to be just a pointless roller coaster of hope and disappointment. Still I am willing to keep considering it and I hope Mooneye777 will provide more data.

Don Shillady
Retired Scientist/teen rodder

I have to agree with Don. With a catalyst in the water yes it would make the electrolysis easier, but as he showed it really doesn't need it. The only the catalyst would really do is speed up the electrolysis, and that is what we are going for, more hydrogen in the air fuel mixture, and better mpg. I also agree that Mooneyes data is promising, but needs to be more detailed, and someone posted earlier the only true way to see would be on a dyno, at such and such a speed for a set period of time. I would be willing to try and set this up on my truck if I had a diagram or schematic.

I am also concerned with what Don said in an earlier post, and that this could be very explosive if say you ran out of water in the Galvanic cell ( container with anode and cathode) and a spark happened to occur. Then BOOM!!!! Not Good!!!

A friend of my brother's just built a similar unit for the water/hydrogen attachment. Pretty sure he used baking soda.

Forget the hydrogen...just use saltwater............

http://youtube.com/watch?v=Tf4gOS8aoFk

OK, another factoid. Ultra-Pure water double-distilled from a glass still or run through an ion-exchange column actually has a VERY high resistance in the Meg-ohm range so maybe all we are talking about is enhancing the conductivity of the water to lower the electrical resistance. Baking soda is mostly NaH(CO3) which provides Na(+) for conductance as well as some H(+) but the carbonate will not last long and will bubble out as CO2 and actually contaminate the H2 + O2 to some extent. NaCl and KCl are in table salt and will also increase conductance. K(+) is actually one of the best positive ions for conductance so KOH will work to increase conductance at the risk of skin burns to the folks handling it. Yes seawater would also have good conductance or even tap water from a source near the ocean such as the nearby Suffolk water supply which is potable for drinking but does have higher conductivity than inland spring water. Sooooo, why do some of the kits charge up to $30 for a "catalyst"? Maybe to make a buck by overcharging for cheap chemicals or maybe some attempt to have true catalysis and maybe someone has tried EuCl3 and found it helps a bit? Lowering the resistance of the cell reduces (I^2 R) heating and (IR) drop through the cell so enhancing the conductance is desireable. Sorry to give us all a headache recalling lanthanide chemistry, but what got me on that track was the mention of a $30 charge for the "Catalyst", that is about what a few grams of EuCl3 would cost, but way overpriced for a simple sample of KOH (potash), table salt or baking soda. One last gasp of reasoning is related to the fact that electrochemistry is more complicated than the usual ideas of DC currents in copper, gold, silver or aluminum wires. In AC/DC electrical effects the "wire" is relatively constant and just the electrons move, but in electrochemistry both positive ions and negative ions move through a solution and a serious complication is that +/- ions MOVE AT DIFFERENT SPEEDS through the solution. The all time champ ion in water is H(+) and in the 1930s there was a LOT of research on conductance through water and it is still a topic of some sophisticated research. Still the main problem to this idea is the safety aspect, if that is solved to the level of the present hazards with liquid fuels then this "fuel-on-demand" could take off as a needed supplement to increase mpg. I had hoped to leave this type of technical hassle in retirement and just build a retro-rod for fun but now we have to cope with the high price of gas while Cuba angle drills to get the petroleum under the Caribean; will there be any left if we can ever convince environmentalists that we need the oil?

Don Shillady
Retired Scientist/teen rodder

Don...The Saturn's O2 sensor shouldn't be affected, all the extra oxygen will be consumed when the hydrogen burns.
More on the limitations of the pictured device---the hoses appear too small to flow any significant amount of gases. An engine on propane uses a 3/4" hose for atmospheric pressure fuel flow. The pics show, what, 3/16"? 1/4"? And that flow is 1/3 oxygen. A 1/4" hose wouldn't flow 1/20 what a 3/4" would, even allowing for it going to a vacuum source.
I'm enjoying this thread immensely, though it is plowing old ground. Most of this stuff was tried many years ago, even by local people of my acquaintance, and they all reported gains out of all proportion to what could be reasonably expected. A telling point, however, none of these people ever made another one for their next vehicles!
Another somewhat sarcastic thought, even if the HHO is a net stalemate as to actual power through its combustion, at least by way of being neutral to overall oxygen use it does displace some of the valuable gas/air mix, possibly increasing fuel economy a bit by effectively decreasing the engine's displacement!!

R Pope I hate to say it, but the Saturn's O2 Sensor could be affected. Gasoline is made up of many Hydrocarbons ( any chemical compound that contains Hydrogen and carbon and thats it) in fact several hundred because it is distilled from crude oil, and different crude oils have different chemical make ups... Not all oil is the same. So for arguments sake we will say the main hydrocarbon is Octane which has a chemical formula of C8H18. Now when Octane is combusted it follows the following formula... 2 C8H18 + 25 O2 --> 16 CO2 + 18 H20 + HEAT (the numbers in front of each compound are the amount of molecules required to balance the equation). Now this is if octane is combusted at a 100% efficiency. However no motor on the planet has a 100% complete burn, hence why you have O2 Sensors which talk to the computer and let in more O2 for the Catalytic converter to utilize and use to burn off excess fuel and elements. If your computer is thinking some amount of O2 is entering the engine, and you go adding excess oxygen and hydrogen, it will through of the computer which goes back to an earlier post in which stated that you need to tune the computer. If you dont, and the O2 sensor detects the excess in oxygen in the exhaust it will limit the air entering the motor but still use the same amount of fuel. Thus increasing your fuel consumption.

Home manufacture of fuel is a federal crime.
Home made fuel on a public highway is a federal crime.
Home made non approved DOT fuel cell is a federal crime.
Tax evasion is a federal crime...you did calculate the total amount of hydrogen and paid your road tax ..right?
Tampering with a emmisions system is also a federal crime.
Warranty is voided by use of that .

Those are the good points........
Bad points .......
Intent to manufacture a bomb .......
Insurance liability ,you did inform your insurance company about the new bomb ,I mean fuel source ,and its unapproved non DOT certified container.....

Soo lets see here ..........
DOT violations
EPA violations
OSHA violations
FED violations

The interesting thing to me, is we have repeatedly asked for the design, or where Mooneye777 got his. He still has not responded with a purchase place or a homemade design, which means, none of his data is reputable, without confirmation by a second party. Mooneye, step up to the plate with the design or purchase place, until then this is just speculation and guess work. The picture you have posted only shows one hot lead on top, no ground visable, and no comment on whats inside besides H2O. If you provide details for others, then we can all build this miracle device, reap the benefits of it's simplicity, and make this world a happier place. Without the facts, welll..... Thanks, Steve.

There is an easy way to test the viability of the system:

If the fruit jar bong actually produces hydrogen, you should be able to setup a system on the work bench using a 12VDC source (battery charger). The outlet of the bong...er jar will be hydrogen rich if you are a believer. Hydrogen burns clear (since there is no carbon) so watch out.... light the output pipe and it should sustain a flame OR explode...one or the other. Remember in high school chemistry when you made a test tube full of hydrogen and lit it? It "barked" when it exploded.

If there is no flame, then you have proved that B.S. doesnt burn.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by stovens

The interesting thing to me, is we have repeatedly asked for the design, or where Mooneye777 got his. He still has not responded with a purchase place or a homemade design, which means, none of his data is reputable, without confirmation by a second party. Mooneye, step up to the plate with the design or purchase place, until then this is just speculation and guess work. The picture you have posted only shows one hot lead on top, no ground visable, and no comment on whats inside besides H2O. If you provide details for others, then we can all build this miracle device, reap the benefits of it's simplicity, and make this world a happier place. Without the facts, welll..... Thanks, Steve.

---

Mooneye did produce the source of the plans in his fisrt post, and he also said he will give us the plans as soon as he could get a diagram drawn up. If you search google or youtube you will find thousands of links ,pics etc.

He is not getting rich off this, so why would he lie about it? Im no scienist, but his word is enough for me, if he said it gained mpg, then im willing to try it! There`s millions of theories that science cannot explain, maybe this is one of them.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mooneye777

The results are in on the hydrogen gas generator. . This is not a pointing finger, swearing up and down it will not work, telling people they are a fool for believing it would work. Even thougjh you have nothing to base your results on thread. These are actual results compiled from not a 3rd or 4th party, uncle Jeds cousins nieghbors nieghbors brother either. But an actual individual related to this board. You can believe it or not I do not care, but for thiose of us that still believe that someone can still come up with a device that can help in improving fuel mileage, then here it is.

Also keep in mind that I have no monitary gain whatsoever from this, im just a guy living from paycheck to paycheck. Feeling a huge strain from the prices of everything skyrocketing mainly because of climbing fuel costs, and possibly help some other poor struggling soul. This is not the answer only a little help. With all the whinning out of the way here are the results.

The devise was ran on a 4 banger saturn and went from 22 mpg to 36 mpg. It was ran on a Hyundai santa fe. 2 full tanks of fuel and 600 miles later (just yesterday), It went from 21 mpg to a new 32 mpg. The ford ranger is still under test as well as the ford f-150. But I will post them when recieved. It is found that the mass air sensor placement on the vehicle plays a part in fuel ratings. That is still under testing at this time. Keep in mind the internal effects of the engine with proloned use is still a mystery. But hey someone has to try something different, just trying to help out not argue!

---

This is the first post. I see no source of plans. I do not question Mooneyes integrety, but would like to see plans, or be provided with info as to where to get the plans he used, to be able to try this myself. Without reproducible results it can't be considered scientific fact. Let Mooneye speak for himself, this is not, I repeat NOT a personal attack. By the way Denny, glad you decided to rejoin us. :D
PS I never asked for anything free, just a source to buy for myself. :eek:
Also if you are quoting a different thread the only other thread I have read on this subject had a bell glass jar kit shown as the source which is not what has been represented by photographs we have been shown.

We are still waiting, still no source or design, so it's not repeatable, until someone else substanciates it. As to needing permission to post, there are links all over this site to products and deals. It's what we do, help eachother out. If I told you I have a personal cure to lowering cholesterol by 50%, and told you I've been taking Omega three fatty acids to do it, you would still not be able to repeat my results unless you knew my base cholesterol, my daily dose of Omega 3 fatty acids, and what my results were after what perscribed amount of time, not to mention my diet, exercise, etc. It's about facts, help and forthrightness.
Let Mooneye respond when he is ready, I can wait. I would love to benefit from 15-20mpg gas improvement. For those who say google it, I say there is a web site out there for everyone, that will provide you with want you want to hear. It doesn't mean the sites are factual or true, even if they contain partial truths. I get this at work all the time, where a patient says well I read on the internet......:eek:

Hey I take that Fish oil to Stovens COOL :) :LOL: **)

Yep, your from the Republic of California!:LOL:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by shawnlee28

Home manufacture of fuel is a federal crime.
Home made fuel on a public highway is a federal crime.
Home made non approved DOT fuel cell is a federal crime.
Tax evasion is a federal crime...you did calculate the total amount of hydrogen and paid your road tax ..right?
Tampering with a emmisions system is also a federal crime.
Warranty is voided by use of that .

Those are the good points........
Bad points .......
Intent to manufacture a bomb .......
Insurance liability ,you did inform your insurance company about the new bomb ,I mean fuel source ,and its unapproved non DOT certified container.....

Soo lets see here ..........
DOT violations
EPA violations
OSHA violations
FED violations

---

I know who he's voting for . Hey Shawnlee 28 what do you think about the NRA ? :LOL: :LOL: