Thread: running on hydrogen gas

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I used to consult for a company that was developing this sort of process. There is an old patent by a guy named Richardson but I don't recall the patent number. The process could be used to convert waste paper or other carbon containing waste materials to produce methane as well as hydrogen, BUT there are many problems. First, as Pope says it takes energy to split the water and other complex organic reactions that form the methane also require energy. For sure you cannot get more energy out of burning just hydrogen than it took to separate the hydrogen from the water, but depending on what other feed stock materials are involved in forming the methane component as well as some carbon monoxide (CO will burn further and is a low grade fuel) there might be a way to gain some energy from consuming whatever waste material is in the feed stock. I saw several dramatic applications of such gaseous fuel BUT IT IS NOT FOR ME! I saw a demo of pumping this gas into a tank just like service stations use to inflate flat tires on the road and then this gas was fed into a fairly large lawn mower engine. In the demo the fuel gas was turned on and the starter was pulled but the engine did not start on the first pull, but the fuel gas was still flowing! Then the engine started on the second pull but by that time there was a lot of the gas coming out of the exhaust system and WHOOOOOM(!!!!) there was one helluva explosion all around the engine which rattled the roof of the Quonset hut garage we were in. I wonder what would have happened if the engine needed a third pull! So yes, there is some potential to use electrolysis of water based waste to form fuel gas but a sophisticated system like the propane-fueled fork lift trucks is needed to control the gas flow. Be warned that if you mess around with flowing hydrogen you are courting a dangerous explosion. My professional opinion is that this sort of mechanism using electrolysis of waste materials in water could be a valuable way to convert carbon containing waste to useable energy but you need a careful design of a fuel cutoff to control the gas flow; you cannot just generate hydrogen in your gasoline tank and use regular carbueration safely! I quit that consultanship because while I think there is a potentially valuable energy source there, the hype around the advertising is often misleading and such devices can actually be dangerous. One additional problem is that when you electrolize water it is likely that the gas will contain oxygen as well as hydrogen so you are dealing with a dangerous mixture of hydrogen and oxygen ready to explode!

Don Shillady
Retired Scientist/teen rodder

The comparison to propane brings up another point. The gaseous fuel takes up a lot of volume in the intake system, with a resultant loss of power. I ran a pickup on propane for a year or so. Even with raised CR, it was a gutless wonder with lousy fuel mileage. A little cheaper than gasoline, but not worth the hassle.

There seems to be a limited success with this so far. Even with gasoline, it's readied and produced on demand, from a stored liquid to an automized or vapour fuel that is burned. Hydrogen as produced, is a vapour, unless your using a membrane to seperate the ox and hydrogen, you will have both gases combined as stated earlier. And it will be an explosive mixture as such. I suppose the way around it, is to produce it on demand, instead of trying to store it. But the unit required using todays tech, would be a rather large one, and slow to meet the actual demands of todays vehicles, and consumer expectations. I have been gathering info on the subject myself. And so far, have items that cover the whole spectrum, from Billy-Bob in the backyard, to scientific experiments that are so far out there, that both are rather useless. This is the just the tip of the iceberg, as experiments and tests are performed, more and more is going to learned. Todays tech and computers will play a huge role, something that wasn't available when hydrogen was first discovered. Up until recent times, there hasn't been any push, or reason to persue hydrogen as a replacement fuel. High prices, projected shortages for gas has changed the thinking. And your right when you say, "you can't get something for nothing". Whether your refering to hydrogen production, or saying the "fuel" will be free. Nothing is free. I'm not ready to laugh this off, or dismiss it as a crack-pot scheme just yet. I think it will play an important role in the near future for everyone. Ok, getting off my soapbox now! Sniper

Yeah...,I am sure big daddy oil would just break his neck to tell us how to give him half as much money..........
Just like the phone company does not want you to know ,you can use your existing internet connection as a world wide phone for free .........
C-mon people your fools if you think any of this is for our benifit or what is being done is the best most efficient manner possible,thier out to get as much from you as possible........bottom line,end story.

Like TOWD sez, rockets run on the stuff. But it's compressed to liquid, and injected into the chamber as such. Now, if you injected liquid hydrogen and oxygen directly into your street rod engine, that puppy would FLY! But who wants to motor around with 3000 lb. pressure bottles tied to his butt? Not me, thanks.

Interesting topic for this day, the 71st anniversary of the Hindenburg disaster.

never thought of that

Just as a side reference, the number one country the US imports oil from is Canada, and Mexico is number two. Since Canada has 90% of their population massed along the northern US border, can we claim Imminent invasion and do a pre-emptive attack? =)

My old grandfather, who would be over 100 now if he were still alive, told me about the "Great Potato Bug Scam"---(this was in about 1912 or 1913). There was a terrible blight of potato bugs that year, and nothing seemed to stop them. This was in the pre-pesticide era, and for a lot of small farmers, if your potato crop failed, your family went hungry the following winter. Just when they thought all was lost, a young, well dressed fellow showed up---came into town on the train. He was selling a SURE KILLER FOR POTATO BUGS.!!! GUARANTEED TO WORK.!!! This was a small package, that sold for 25 cents, and the wrapper was covered in mystical symbols, with a big warning "DO NOT OPEN UNTILL FULL MOON FOR BEST RESULTS". All the rural folk rushed to buy them, and the young fellow took the next train out of town. The "full of the moon" came, and everyone anxiously tore open their MIRACLE POTATO BUG KILLER. and there inside was two little blocks of wood, with the instructions---PLACE POTATO BUG ON BLOCK "A--PLACE BLOCK "B" ON TOP OF POTATO BUG---SQUEEZE HARD!!! Times have changed quite a bit since 1912, but there are still people around willing to spend their money on a MIRACLE POTATO BUG KILLER. (or hydrogen powered automobile).

There is a totally new way of extracting hydrogen from coal and natural gas, other than electrically "cracking" water. The new method uses a membrane that will allow only hydrogen molecules to pass through it. If anyone is interested, go to your internet search engine and type in "hydrogen" and "membrane".

Great to hear about the new cell design, Robot. Also interesting about the membrane Brian!

Here is some interesting reading on the subject of oil:

http://www.gravmag.com/oil.html#dollar

mike in tucson

Since hydrogen can pass though membranes more easily than other gases whose molecules are larger that is also an added problem of leakage from whatever container it is stored in.

Don Shillady
Retired Scientist/teen rodder

I think someone mentioned the hindeberg!

I did a google search, and one site i found claims the us makes about 2billion cubic feet of hydrogen a year, so how many cars could that run?