The span on this steering arm is just a little too wide for my spindle. Would heating and bending a forged piece like this cause any weakness? Or, would cutting and welding to fit be better?
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The span on this steering arm is just a little too wide for my spindle. Would heating and bending a forged piece like this cause any weakness? Or, would cutting and welding to fit be better?
I think it will.
if you gonna do one or the other, i'd heat and bend it before i cut and wielded it.
That looks like a camaro arm, what are you trying to put it on?, how much diferent is the holes?, can you widen the holes to make it work?
If you deside to heat it(which I think would be best) after it is bent to where you want it let it cool by itself NO WATER.
Yes, I think it may be from a Camero. I'm doing a straight front axle 55 Chevy, and thought I could use it to tie my rod from the box. The mounting holes are just a little wide for my spindle. If I could narrow it, and use longer studs to mount it, I'd have the link I need to steer. I just need to get a dropped pitman arm to fit the stock 55 steering box and run the crosslink over to the passenger side wheel. This axle already has the tie rod. Also, notice the extra tie rod connected on the cross tie rod. I wonder if I could just hook my crossover link to that spot? But it may not have enough leverage to turn the wheels.
you may be changing your bump steer also. :eek:
A forged piece is a forged peice,heating and bending will weaken it.Cutting and welding it will weaken it also.Quote:
Originally Posted by drofdar
Either way you go it's not good. IMO I wouldn't do either. (I guess this is where college and metallury classes come in handy? LOL). If you heat and bend it then yes do NOT cool it down with water. But either way like I said, don't do it because you will have a weak spot there and a pot hole or bump and crack it or cause major problems.
on every race car i ever built i heated and bent the idler arm, to get the bump, steer that i wanted. some of the dirt tracks i ran on had corn row's you could loose the car in. never broke a idler arm. :D
Ok, I am new here on the site, Brian in my name. I want to get this clear what you are after. You want to install this Camaro steering arm on the right side spindle of your 55 Chevy so you have a spot for the drag link to hook up instead of using that tie rod end with the second hole that we see in the last picture? Is that right?
First off, why do you want to change what is there?
Second, if the length of the camaro arm is different than the other side you will have wheels turning at the wrong angle. This length needs to be the same on both sides from the center of the king pin to the center of the tie rod end pivot.
The "leverage" is going to be changed quite a bit by the length of the pitman arm as well. What you have now, without trying it you don't know.
Brian
A good welder will disagree with this statment.Quote:
Originally Posted by BigTruckDriver
He would say a good weld is as strong or stronger than the area around the weld.
Ever try and cut through a good weld or try and grind on it??
True about the weld, but then the area around the weld will be the first to give.
Why??Quote:
Originally Posted by BigTruckDriver
If they welder does his job the area around the weld will not be compremised.
I had an old 454 1053 steel crank that I spun a rod on about 15 yrs ago.
I had it welded up and ran another two seasons on it.
12.5 to 1 comp. ratio and 7,000 rpm's.
Last I knew 4 years ago it was still in a street car and un-broken.
I think a lot of it depends on the welder's experience.
It is pretty common practice to heat and bend early Ford spindle arms to gain dropped axle clearance. I did mine 20 years ago, and still are ok. Heat cherry red in the spot where you want the bend to be, then slowly bend to final shape. As mentioned, let it cool naturally, and try to keep your bends to a minimum and only one time per spot. I had to bend mine first close to the backing plate, then a second time up to align with the king pin angle. Getting enough heat to soften the steel is the key to prevent cracking.
Don
As far as the weld question goes, some people will have different oppinions on that. As for me, I wont comment on it because I am still stuck between each oppinion. In a way though, the heat can mess up the metal there and cause a weak spot around the weld but if done correctly and you used TIG or MIG and kept the heat down then it may be fine. Like he said above, the weld should be stronger than the metal around it if done correctly and you should be able to bend that welded section and not break it.
I do know this, if done incorrectly, they WILL break. My brother had a 39 Ford that had the spindle steering arms "dropped" before he got them. He had driven all over in that car, at the drags (13.80 at 100 mph) drove it all over the state. One day he went down the freeway (probably 80 mph or so knowing him) twenty miles or so and back again. As he pulled up into the driveway at the shop he decided to back up and go to the back of the shop. He dropped it in reverse and the steering wheel spun in his hands! That was it, snapped right off! Knowing that he had just been tooling down the road in this car and he did NOTHING for it to break, just turned the wheel, he was pretty shaken up to say the least.
Heat slowly and COMPLETLY then bend slowly and let it cool down slowly.
Brian
Maybe this would be one of the things that cryogenic freezing would help with . They freeze the part to ridiculous temps and it compacts the molecules and hardens the steel. Pretty new technology.
"cryogenic freezing"
No, no. This is an application where you heat and bend the arm to exactly the shape that you desire and then sent the arm off for proper heat treatment. You guys that destroy the properties of metal and then slap the part back on a front end are playing with fire. There is not a significant gain of tensile strength or ductility from cryogenic freezing. (After normal heat treatment procedures, of course)
It will work ,I am just saying that area will not be 100 percent .Its one of those things could be today ,6 months from now who knows.
Thats why i put the maybe in there I am no expert and will never claim to be
Heh, the MAYBE is the clue, come on now, pay attention! :p You gotta capitalize that next time. LOL
better listen to Lucforce , he is right , yeah i know the weld is stronger but what about the rest of the part after being heated and cooled rapidly ????
I think I just won't start messing with that Camero arm. I plan to try connecting the drag link to the spot on the tie rod shown in my posted picture. Then the cross over drag link will be bent up, parallel the tie rod under the oil pan, then angle up again, if needed, to connect with the pitman arm. I have had some difficulty finding a dropped pitman arm to fit a tri-five box. I may move the box forward and down a bit. Then I could cut the shaft and use borgeson type joints. Or, maybe I should just use a Vega box.
1) It is unlikely that a welded part will have the strength as the original forged part, heated and bent or not. Area rules the day here IMO.
2) Most forged steels will retain most of their of strength when heated and formed. Thick suspension sections are typically forged very hot (cherry red) and do not rely on cold working or tempering to enhance mechanical properties.
3) Don't weld on or heat and bend on any structural member unless you a) know what metal it is you are working worth or b) have years of successful experience working with very similar parts.
Kitz
The forging process IS a high temperature bending process, so the metalurgy IS correct for high temperature bending!
What's the benefit for this swap? It looks like you still have only one eye for the tie rod, so you'll still need that "double" tie rod end for the drag link. Are the steering arms the right length? Are the tie rod ends at the proper height to eliminate bump steer? Is the Ackerman angle correct?
If the line through the drag link ends is not horizontal, you will have bump steer. In addition, if you are using a double tie rod end and your drag link is not horizontal, your steering wheel won't return to the center position after each turn, because the pressure of the drag link on the tie rod will cause it to twist each time you turn a corner. Bending the drag link or the tie rod to clear obstacles will reduce the stiffness of the link.
"The forging process IS a high temperature bending process, so the metalurgy IS correct for high temperature bending!"
My concern is not the bending to get the desired shape. The problem comes with the temperature that the metal is taken to and then the physical method of the bending, followed by the cooling method used and heat treatment used.
If not done correctly, the metal will have stress fractures, too high ductility, or be too brittle. Frankly, with the time that has been spent on this thread, he could have heated and bent the arm, and hat it properly heat treated.
COULD be a forged or a simply cast piece.
probably doesn't have a HUGE load on it anyway,
relatively speaking.
watch the front end geometry.
could be mild steel, hardened (+quenched)to martensitic/austentite
microstructure, and normalized (reheated to a lower temp) for less
brittleness. can't determine this without polishing, etching,
and microstructure analysis or Brinell/Rockwell hardness testing
find a good welder- you'll be fine
if you heat up+ bend maybe stay away from wear points-
what the original heat treating was for anyway, not for load
I'll scan/post some heat treatment/metallurgy
pages when I return to work this week
(12 years- metallurgical lab here B.S.- real college woohoo)