Engine Swap... and more

Hey guyz whats up?? I just started building my first hot rod. It's been a fun process so far but i'm having some trouble right now. I've gotten every thing torn down and I've got a bare chassis sitting infront of me. I'm swapping in a chevy 350 4 bolt main and i plan on running about 400 horses out of it.
What strengthening do i need to do on the frame and what type of rear suspention would you suggest?? I don't plan on racing it or professionally showing it i just want something easy and comfortable.
Also what should I do about a front end?? It's my dad's car and he suggests going and finding a front end at a junk yard and fabbing it up to fit. Is this a good idea?? or should i get a front end kit??
Like I said this is my first build so i will frequently be posting to get ideas and help. I thank you for your help in this matter.

Jeremy

I guess I'm not real familiar with a 40 chebbie, if it is a "C" channel frame, you should box it to take the extra power the new motor will have. The front suspension kits would be a lot easier for a first timer to install, and would make a better looking setup when you're done. JMO

For the rear suspension, I would reccomend coilovers and a triangulated 4 bar kit. They are very stable and if the correct springs are selected will ride quite nice.

Thanks for the tips. The forty chevy already has a boxed fram.
Do you know where i could find i cheap front end kit?? once again thanx.

Even though there's some work involved with the core support and such to bolt the fenders, grille, etc. back on in the correct position, how about using something like a Chevy S10 front frame clip swap. It would give you modern steering and brakes and there are kits to swap in a small block, headers, etc. and the track should be pretty close to the same as the '40. Also, I'm sure someone makes a crossmember that will weld or bolt in to mount a Mustang II system. In the rear, I might be thinkin' a 9-inch out of a Ford Bronco mounted on a set of leafs.

http://www.teufert.net/other/rear%20...dimensions.htm
http://www.eatonsprings.com/

Don't get in over your head the first time out. Rebuild the stock front end, maybe a disc brake conversion, and a '55-57 rear. Get it running and drive it for a while, then you'll know what else to do. But have fun first!

I've thought about just rebuilding the front end but the thing about this old car is it uses hydrolic dampers instead of shocks. I had it running stock and i must say the ride was pretty stiff. thanks for the advice though.
techinspector I'll see what i can find out there. also fro my rear end i was thinking about going for the Dana 60 in the rear of the donor car i'm using. I'm taking parts off of a 1984 gmc jimmy. I took the engine, transmission, and steiring box out and plan on using as much as i can from that.
I see a lot of r&p steiring in the hot rod pages i look at. Is it easier to use r&p or to try to fab something up??

"I see a lot of r&p steiring in the hot rod pages i look at. Is it easier to use r&p or to try to fab something up??"

I'd advise that you either rebuild what you have or swap in a frame clip or use one of the MII crossmember conversions that are available. Also, here's a post from one of the CHR contributors that offers up another idea of a crossmember conversion using your stock frame rails.......

" If you don't want to cut the front off the frame you could try takeing off the front suspension and putting in a Fiero front end. It has rack and pinion steering disc brakes and five bolt wheels. The front crossmember is easy to remove from the Fiero and wide enough to fit most frames with just a few brackets. I lowered a 40 Ford 6" with this setup."

More info on clips....
http://www.chevytrucks.org/tech/ifs&rearend.htm

Here are several early cars with a description of the suspension systems used. Although there isn't necessarily any fabrication information, you can see what "the other guys" are using......
http://www.streetrodstuff.com/Studio/Coupes/

http://www.hotrodders.com/t11650.html

http://www.hotrodders.com/t18838.html

http://www.hotrodders.com/t30591.html

http://www.scottshotrods.com/IFSsystem.asp

http://www.chassisengineeringinc.com/

If you do use your stock stuff and rebuild it, check the price of aftermarket discs first. You may find that you can do a whole front end from a donor car for less than buying just disc brakes for your otherwise stock '40.

If you decide to swap a clip and don't know how to proceed, e-mail me and I'll outline the whole thing for you. There is a lot of work to it, but if you pay attention and are proficient at welding or have someone who is and can help you, it is just a matter of following the steps.

ok let me bounce this idea off of you cause i took the advice from earlier and i'm thinking about runnign with it. I contacted heidt's to price their MII front crossmember alone ($400). My idea is to purchase this crossmember and go to a junk yard for rotors and caplers for front disk brakes as well as upper and lower a arms for an IFS front end. I'm thinking about going with their rear left spring kit as well ($465). do you think this would be a wise desision??

At first look, this seems to make sense. What I would do first is scout the boneyards to determine availability and price of the components. Then I'd price all the components to rebuild the boneyard pieces (control arm bushings, strut rod bushings, R&P rebuild kit, caliper rebuild kits, possibly new rotors if the ones from the boneyard are already cut beyond limits. While you're prospecting the boneyards, also price the brake pedal assembly, master cylinder and booster along with all valves in the system and price a rebuild kit for the master or the price of a new master.

Talk all this over with your dad and make sure you have his blessing on it before you begin. It makes a job like this go much easier if you have an old guy (experienced) involved who is interested in it from the git-go.

After I had all this info, I'd call Heidts and ask if I could buy a copy of the illustrated installation instructions. Tell them you're a first-timer and you want to make sure there aren't any surprises in store for you once you get started with this project. Tell them you want to make sure and have all the tools and supplies on hand that are necessary to do the job properly before you start.

I'll add this to get you started thinking about what you'll need....

No matter where you plan to do this, the floor will not be level enough. You MUST start with a level floor and enough room to move all around the car to do your work. I would consider an area 10 ft. x 20 ft. to be the minimum work area. If you'll be using a part of a garage, here's an inexpensive (well, relatively inexpensive in the whole scope of the project) way to begin with a level floor. Lay out an area 8 ft. x 16 ft. in the middle of the work area. Using a 48" level and a nice flat piece of 2 x 4 x 8 ft. piece of lumber standing on edge, find the high point in this area. My garage floor was off by 2 1/4" from front to rear in this size area, sloping toward the street to facilitate water runoff in the garage area.

What you're going to do is shim up the floor to accept 4 sheets of 3/4" or 1", 4 ft. x 8 ft.sheets of composition board to use as a flat, level working surface. For shims, you'll be using pieces of scrap lumber maybe 4"x4" or 3"x3" and stacking them in stacks no more than 6" apart all over your 8 ft x 16 ft. area, using construction glue or cement to glue them to the floor and to each other so they won't move. You'll use zero shims at the high spot and higher and higher shim stacks as you move to the low point. Sheets of old wall paneling will work well for the thinner shims and I've even used one or more pieces of thick manila folders stuck together to get where I need to be. Construct each stack to the proper height using your 48" level as you build each new stack. When you have your stacks completed, glue the composition boards to the stacks and you'll have a fine, level and smooth floor to measure and build from. If you need to hold components in place, make a fixture from scrap metal and wood-screw it to the composition wood floor.

Once you have the car in place on your new floor, level the frame of the car front to rear and side to side with 4 minimum capacity 3-ton high-quality jackstands. Use some of the same material you used to level the garage floor to level the car. Now, choose 2 points on the rear of the frame on each side that are the same distance from the front of the car. These might be holes that are punched into the frame or they might be the corners of a rear crossmember, but they need to be the same point on the car in both places left and right. Drop a plumb-bob down to the floor from each point and make a mark with a carpenter's pencil. Using the flat edge of your piece of lumber you used to level the floor, draw a line all the way across the board from side to side between these 2 points. Drive a nail into the board at each point, leaving about a half-inch of the nail sticking out of the board. These will be your reference points for everything else you do to the car, so be very careful that you do this right.

Now go to the front and choose another 2 points on the front of the frame. Again using your plumb-bob, make marks on the board and run a line across between them. Drive a nail in at each point, leaving 1/2" sticking up.

This is the point at which you find out if you have a player or you don't. Measure carefully front to rear on the left side and front to rear on the right side. Then measure diagonally both ways between the nails. If any measurement is off by more than 1/8", the frame is tweaked and all bets are off until the frame is straightened.

I'm predictin' we'll never hear from Jeremy again.

Well, even if he doesn't come back Tech that is a wealth of information for others considering the same mods to their ride. Thanks for taking the time to post it. Lots of very good, practical information in your post.

the only reason you wouldn't see me again is the fact that it would take me so stinkin long to get this stuff done before i came back with more questions.
I'll be posting a lot because building this hot rod is way different than any other thing i've ever done.
Also I will usually be posting in the mornings because thats when i do all my research and have a plethera of time to chat and post.

As for level ground, pretty much have it done already, the place i have to work on this car is a barn with rock flooring. since rock isn't the greatest thing for rolling chery pickers around on i put particle board downon the ground to help that. I would like to get a cement floor in there and have a nice place to work but sadly i do not.

Thanks for all the help you've been with all the great advice.
"It makes a job like this go much easier if you have an old guy (experienced) involved who is interested in it from the git-go."
The old guyz i have are all of you. My dad like driving classic cars and looking at them but he doesn't have a clue how to work on them. I am the first and only gear head in my family. All i've learned so far has been from trial and error so all the guys here that help out are so much help

Well alrighty then Jeremy, let us proceed.

By the way, use this same thread for the whole project. That way, everybody can follow along and give good advice. :)

ya i was figuring i'd keep the same thread so i wouldn't have to go to a million pages to see what to do next.

I ordered the cross member today and it should be here in two to three days.

I drew up a mock frame set up today and i'll try to scan that in so you guyz can look at it and give me some advice for more things i could use or things i could do with out. I'll get that on after i get off work tonight.

Well thats all for now

Ok so um.. ya working on the frame waiting for my cross member to get in... I have an angle grinder that i'm using to take the rust off of the frame anybody know a faster way... (I tried sand blasting but it is too humid here so moister clogs up the spray gun, I got an air drier filter for it but it went bad in 15 min. so ya thats no good.)

well i finally got back from being out of town and when i got back my front cross member was here. I have it ready to be welded in today. Now all I have to is find some one to weld it in. I'm grinding out more of the unnecessary parts off of the frame and getting ready to head to some bone yards for front suspention parts. Any ideas on what type of of car i should take them off of?? Tech suggested a chevy s- 10... any other ideas guys??

"Tech suggested a chevy s- 10"

Jeremy, I think you're a little confused. You need to go back to the top and read all the posts. When I suggested an S10, it was a frame clip swap from an S10. You have chosen to go another way, using a Mustang II crossmember. You must now use Mustang II suspension parts to work with your crossmember. You may be able to find them in a boneyard, or you may not. If not, there are several shops around the country that manufacture brand new pieces to fit your new crossmember. Is the crossmember you've purchased set up to use a wishbone lower arm or a strut rod arrangement?

Just a bit of trivia, the AM Pacer "bubble car" used Mustang II/ Pinto front end with a bit wider track and 5-bolt Chevy pattern hubs. Harder to find, but may be worth the effort.

Sorry bout that tech. my mistake. I finally got some pictures of my project so hopefully i can download these onto this forum correctly.
OK first pic is the new front cross member

The 350 sbc four bolt main that i took out of my 1984 gmc jimmy, with the 700 r4 tranny.

as full a shot as i could get of the frame. Since the picture was taken i removed the stock transmission mount.

here's a better shot of the side of the front cross member maybe it will help tell you if i can use stut arms.

and here's the rear of the frame.

O.K. Jeremy, you can go either way on the control arms, original style with a strut rod or with Heidts fabricated arms. If you use the original lower arms from a boneyard, you'll have to order one of part # MP003 strut rod brackets from Heidts to weld to your frame. If you use Heidts upper and lower arms, there are several options......

If you're basically cheap like I am and are more concerned with the way the car works rather than bling-bling, go with the economy fabricated mild steel arms CA103-E lowers (no strut rod req'd) $259 and the CA101-E uppers $199. They come complete, ready to install with all new bushings and ball joints.

Here's where you have to choose whether you're going to come out better by using boneyard parts, disassembling them, de-rusting them and installing new bushings and ball joints, welding the strut rod brackets to your frame and going with the OEM design or using Heidts parts which require no strut rod.

There are other higher cost options available from Heidts as well, including tubular stainless arms it you require bling-bling. Surf their website.

Whichever way you go, I recommend using a front sway bar on the car. I also recommend setting the front ride height with dropped spindles instead of altering the attitude of the control arms with chopped springs. When you do that, you upset the suspension geometry and the car will never be right. When the car is all back together, on the ground, ready to drive, the lower control arms should be parallel with the ground.

When you get ready for front springs, here is the place to shop. Look at all your choices.....
http://www.eatonsprings.com/m2coils.htm

Jeremy, another thought, if you decide to use strut rods, the rear mount for the rod MUST be EXACTLY in line with the centerline of the bottom arm mount, just like OEM. I've seen guys heat and bend the strut rod to make installation easier on their particular car and it ends in disaster, puts everything in a bind and parts break. If you have to, use a piece of rod or tubing that is EXACTLY the same size as the holes in the OEM crossmember where the bolt goes through to mount the lower arm. Run the rod through the bolt holes and back to the strut rod mount, at the EXACT center of the mount and mark the distance very carefully. Then, you can use the same rod in your crossmember holes to locate the strut rod mounts where they will weld to your Chevy frame.

Again, DO NOT alter the stock strut rod.

thatnks for the advice tech. the crossmember kit came with the two metal peices of i wanted to use struts. If you could help explain to me or give me some web sites to go to to help me understand the front ends of cars better. This project is my first car project. I do a lot of work on older 4x4's that use straight axel front ends so the front ends of cars i know are a lot different.
I've got most of the bottom of the frame sand blasted so by tuesday i should be through sanding and primering the frame.

ok so today i spent the day at the bone yard collecting the front suspension off of a 1978 ford pinto. tomorrow i sand blast and primer the parts. well thats all the update for now but when i get the front suspension together i'll post more pics

"If you could help explain to me or give me some web sites to go to to help me understand the front ends of cars better."

Jeremy, the very best information on the planet is a set of books authored by Carroll Smith. When I was trying to get educated years ago about suspension geometry so I could design my own front and rear systems, I read every book I could get my hands on and none of them made it clear to me until I read Smith. He was the Crew Chief for Ford Motor Co. when they went to Le Mans and whipped Ferrari and really knew his stuff (passed away now).

My very best advice to you is to cough up $99.95 plus $15 freight and get the complete set of Smith books. It'll be the cheapest hundred and fifteen bucks you'll ever spend on your automotive education....
http://www.carrollsmith.com/books/purchase.html

A couple of years ago, I suggested this same course of action to Jani in Finland who wanted to understand suspension and build his own system. We just recently heard from him again with pictures of his progress. If this won't make a believer out of you, nothing will......
http://www.clubhotrod.com/t17547.html

thanks for the help tech. Ok so yesterday i spent the day in a bone yard getting the front suspension off of a 78 ford pinto. My question now is what car can i get calipers and rotors off of for those spindels??

Most guys use the 11" Granada rotors and '78-'88 Chevelle or Cutlass calipers. You can buy the whole mess ready to bolt on with either Ford or Chevy bolt pattern for around $300 or you can buy the caliper mounting bracket only for around $90 and scrounge the rest. Or if you're handy, you can design your own caliper mounting bracket.

You will want to think about this, whether you want to start with all new parts or scrounge up parts and rebuild 'em. You'd want to turn the rotors to make sure they're true and that removes metal that should be there to resist warping from heat. Less mass equals easier warping. At the least, I'd buy new rotors.

Sachse Rod Shop has the complete kit ready to bolt on for $299...
http://www.sachserodshop.com./pdf/57.pdf
Other kits are available from many sources including Heidts.

You'll want to use a disc brake master cylinder and proper valving. Proportioning valve in the line to the rear to prevent rear wheel lockup, metering valve in the front line to prevent nose dive and residual valve in the rear line to assure a full pedal. All 3 of these are available in a device called a combination valve.

If I were doing this, I think I'd go to the boneyard and pirate all the brake parts from a '78-'88 Chevelle or Cutlass and adapt 'em to the old Chevy, including the master cylinder, booster, valving, brake pedal assembly (firewall mount). I might even be tempted to use the rear brakes off the Chevelle if they are bigger than the Ford brakes on the housing you're using and adapt them to fit. That way, you'd have a complete, factory engineered system that would stop your old Chevy on a dime.

I'm all about cobbling stuff up to work, been doin' it for nearly 50 years, but I'm also careful when it comes to brakes. I want to emulate the factory system as closely as I can because people smarter than I am engineered the system to work under all conditions. I suspect that the Chevelle was pretty near the weight of the old Chevy and using all the Chevelle parts should give you a well-balanced braking system.

I don't have any idea what is involved in adapting the Chevelle rear brakes to the Ford rear, but I know that I could do it and I suspect that with a little help, you can too.

If you did it this way, you'd want to use a front rotor drilled for the Chevy pattern wheel so you'd have a Chevy pattern all the way around.

There's also the possibility of using 4-wheel discs and there's probably a kit somewhere for adapting late T-Bird parts to the rear. Do a search. You'd want to use a 4-wheel disc master cylinder though so you'd have enough volume.

If I'm all wet on this, I hope some of you other fellows will chime in and offer a better idea.

thanks for the suggestions tech. I think i'm going to pull the gm 10 bolt (might be a 12) out of my jimmy for the rear axel. I went back to heidt's to see what they had for rotors. they're the same size as pinto front rotors but they have the chevy 5 lug pattern. I'm about to have to close down the project for a while as i head off to college for another semester. I hope to find a place up there where i cen work on it. Do you know if storage complex would let me work on a car in one of the storage areas??

I must agree with the big 11 inch brakes. I have a 40 Plymouth and I had the 9 inch rotors on the front with a Chevelle rear. And after a couple of panic stop where I had to change my shorts. I ponied up for the big brakes. You will be glad you did.