hot rod history ?

Im gonna ramble a little, im feeling philosophical today ,and i started thinking about this whole rat rod issue, and started wondering has in the history of hot rodding ,has any other fad evoked as much contoversy and anger as this one? Ive been reading some threads on a few dfferent forums ,and its got me wondering about all this, and ive came to some realizations, and questions, ive realized that nobody can come up with a common definition on where it started or what it really is/ what makes a rat rod, yet somehow a movement has surfaced that nobody seems to be able to explain, not even the rat rodders, ive also realized that my explaination that i posted was apparently wrong, cause i have not been able to find another with the same veiw on how it started, and with no basis for a movement or scene how can it really exsist, or cause so much trouble, has the introduction of other styles or fads ever had this affect on the hot rod world? did the rod comunity freak in the late 70`s when all the pastel streetrods surfaced in the 80`s, or in the 90`s when the billet movement started? Im not trying to stir up trouble, so please do not turn this thread into an argument, if it deos go that way please pull it from the forum, i just want to hear theories and memories of the things you guys have gathered along the way, and how this scene might have came about, i want no critisism or saying others are wrong, i just want a little philosophic disscution:confused: :rolleyes: :HMMM:


thanks, john

Also i want eveybody to participate in this, theres like a gazzilion members here but only 2% post, so lets hear from all of you, theres no tech knowledge needed, just thoughts

Being one of the older members of the forum, I grew up in the '50's, and there was controversy then over these "new fangled" overhead valve V8's and how they would NEVER replace the good old flathead. They simply were not correct to install in a true hot rod, as only a flatmotor would do.

Then, before my time, I understand the flathead V8 guys caught flack from the traditional rodders who ran 4 cylinders with Riley heads and the like. How could these upstarts forsake something that had been the cornerstone of the sport for so long.

But, nothing seems to have so many people divided as the love rat/ hate rat controversy. Maybe the internet has made this easier for the discussions to happen.

Great thread, John.


Don

Seems everyone hates change..................The old guys shouldnt let it bother them.....We will be dead soon enough.

That brings up another question, there seems to be conflict on the traditional front, some guys say they were this way, some say they werent,so if some say they were only in primer till they could afford paint, then is a primered traditional rod acually traditional, or is it merely a reflection of a stage a traditional rod might have went through, or did they really build them like that?

I can recall the '46-'48 era when "Hot Rod" was a VERY negative term, right next to OUTLAW. The cause was a lot of young folks who wanted to go fast and emerging technology to hop up the flathead Ford at a time when new cars were just becoming available. One way to make money in 1947 was to place an order for a new car, wait six months for delivery and then sell the car right away for close to twice the factory price. Such was the hunger for new cars after many of the '30s cars had been rebuilt over and over. I recall a local well-to-do type who had run through four (4) rebuilt engines in his '41 Ford by 1954. Simultaneously a lot of folks were dumping those cars they had nursed along during WWII and suddenly you could buy an early Ford cheap, chop and channel what would have been junked anyway and then add some goodies to a later Ford flathead. This led to a lot of street racing and many horrible accidents to the extent that the general puplic regarded Hot Rods as outlaw machines. I recall being cussed out at great length because I dared to use a neighbor's driveway for a turnaround in my stock '31 Fordor just because it was painted blue (with a brush) and had red wheels, such was the public image of any young person in an early Ford. In fact the guy said in effect "get out of here you HOT ROD!" Fortunately due to the efforts of folks like Wally Parks the NHRA was formed and the drag racing was shifted off the streets to sanctioned tracks and the NHRA did a good job of emphasizing SAFETY. That is apparently what is missing from the Rat Rod movement and in fact those cars may bring down the wrath of the public again if serious accidents are caused by flimzy rust buckets. I can understand the nostalgia of putting together antique speed parts and I certainly can identify with the satisfaction of putting together a hybrid car from various parts, but most of the so-called Rat Rods would make Wally Parks think what he did was being undone. Hey dull primer and blanket seat covers are fine by me as well as some huge hemi or Caddy engine on a fenderless, roofless roadster but how do those other cars get vehicle inspection stickers let alone NSRA approval (they don't). After several near accidents with the old mechanical brakes on early Fords (my Dad totaled three Model-As in the 1930s, and he survived but my MOM was pretty shook up by then) I cannot understand cars with only rear brakes and I had one Model-A rear come apart when the pumpkin bolts worked their way out so I have no desire for a flimzy chassis. The Rat Rods could/would be interesting AS LONG AS THEY ARE SAFE!

Don Shillady
Retired Scientist/teen rodder

This is kinda funny, 8 posts and were already off the subject, weve already tried the discusion on our likes and dislikes, and what we think about them, this is supposed to be about has any other fad caused the same uproar and what influences caused the hot rod world to get where its at, and also i see 18 people have veiwed this but only about 6-7 have posted, come on guys get involved a little

I stayed to the subject. :D :D :D :D :D :D :D


As for what the cars looked like, there was no ONE look. Some areas (most notably California) seemed to have more "finished" rods. I think it was because of income level and abundance of specialty shops to do custom kind of work. Where I lived (Pittsburgh Pa) most cars were more like the rats in finish (primer finishes with more emphasis on performance than looks) We also were poorer than some other places as far as expendible income.

The first really done car I saw was a '32 coupe out of California that migrated to Pa. Every nut and bolt was chromed and it was really done well. Our cars were not that well done by any means. Maybe some were, but not the majority.

So I think both memories are correct, depending on where you were from.

Don


Dave's post down below reminded me of one of the first "breakthrough" rat rods, if you will. I think it was Jake from Pete and Jakes (or Pete) who built that oxidized red '29 tub that had a blanket interior and generally was a little shabby. Because it was Jake (or Pete) suddenly it was OK to build something less than perfect, and the magazines heralded it as such a big deal.

The first Rat Rod I ever remember seeing was back around 1987... Used to be a guy who had a 46/48 Ford Coupe who used to attend almost every GoodGuys and NSRA event. Drove the car to each event and drove it around the fairgrounds the entire weekend. The car was slammed with steelies and everything else was aged and rusted, but the car had tons of attitude. I think most refered to it as a "Beater"... Building a "Beater" became the "in thing" to do in the late 80's and early to mid 90's and was considered a way to stick it to the "Show Car" Crowd, don't rmember it being so contriversial though! I always like the idea of a rod with attitude that you could drive and not worry about door dings and scraping over every bump. I also remember that was around the time calling your ride a "Show Car" started to become shamefull.

Don't know if that helps the thread, but that it how I remember it...

Dave

I became interested in '58, so I can't comment a lot on the '40s and '50s, other than the "outlaw image" that was held by the public. I have heard from the beginning that they were reading a lot of headlines, whenever anyone was killed by street racers. (Sounds a lot like the "sensationalist" reporting of today...."Only bad news is good news".) :-)

I do remember that trends went from open wheeled cars, to full fendered resto-rods, to non-Fords, to billet cars. Recently there has been increased interest in T-buckets and the highly restyled "modernized" fiberglass creations, but it's not as publicized as the "rat" trend.

I don't ever remember the clash between generations, that this seems to have. I do know that we, as young men, rebeled against our parents, but we always felt that the hot rod style of car belonged to us. Maybe that is the problem. We "baby boomers" grew up with the hobby, and we have made it what it is. Possibly, the next generation feels they need to turn all of our values (like the desire to build beautiful cars) upside down, believing that will prove their independence. I don't see much of a cure for this situation. The ideals our generation hold, include great workmanship, and solid engineering, are not easily abandoned.......especially after we have spent the last 50 years striving to improve them.

I will guess that the rat rod trend will wear itself out, since the classic "hot rodder" personality has always been the rebellious stand-away-from-the-crowd guy. When events are dominated by flat black, pinstriped cars, that appear half-finished, the rebels will once again look for a way to be different.

I also remember that was around the time calling your ride a "Show Car" started to become shamefull.

Thats interesting, so what was the distinguishing difference between a "show car" and a regular car, or was a show car a different style car than a standard hot rod

The ideals our generation hold, include great workmanship, and solid engineering.



i agree with that, it seems that older values got lost in my generation, and it gets worse with each one after, what roll do guys think ed roth had inadvertadly on my generation, cause his art was in my book the first of the low brow art, and his hot rod pics are out of this world, and those out there rods inspire me

The Roth phenomenon is enjoying a newfound popularity amongst the Hot Rod Kulture. I think it is because he represents the freedom of expression that young folks want for themselves, plus they are trying to recreate a period that he was a part of.

He was one of my heros in the mid-sixties. I drew his characters, or "monster" style designs of my own, when I was in jr. High and high school. His cars really pushed the limits of design, and I still personally admire him as an artist/craftsman. He had ALL of the skills...artist, designer, fabricator, painter, striper.....(I don't know about upholstery).....but very few master this many different skills, and also are daring enough to "go outside the lines" of established hot rod artistry.

I agree completely, i see roth as a true master of hot rodding, unlike foose and boyd, who to me seem to stick to one style and design, masters in there own right but nowhere near the creative artistry that roth possesed, i dont even think that the barris bros are in the same league, the thing that boggles me a bit is the fact that i know there were no cars built like the rat rods of today, but what influenced that vision in my head of cars that look like that, to make me at this age want to build a low down dirty hot rod, and obviously had the same impact on the rest of my generation, cause theres alot of these cars running around, or is it like you guys say just a natural rebellion against the street rods of the 80`s that we grew up around? and what influenced you guys to build the cars of the 60`s ,when all you had to go by was the hot rods of the 40`s and 50`s ?, or was i a rebelion against the muscle cars like we are against the ricers?

Your probably right, but i thought if i made it not nececarily a rat rod thread but more of a hot rod discusion that it would not, and im still disapointed that there is over 50 veiws now and only 18 posts

Don't be too disappointed, because what you are seeing is typical of any gathering of people. Take a party for example. There will be some people who are deep in conversations and others who seem more content to just sit back an people watch. I have seen it in company meetings too. Some people do all the talking and others take notes. It is just human nature.

I have had the same thoughts as you John, about how do we draw some of the lurkers out to actually post and join in. I am not sure how to do this, or if it is even possible. Maybe that is just the way it will always be.

But I think this is a good thread anyway.

Don

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by hotroddaddy

im still disapointed that there is over 50 veiws now and only 18 posts

---

Don't be, as I have been at least ten of those making sure this thread does not get out of line like the last one I closed for 24 hours to allow participants to cool off.

Bill S.

Good descripion don, i just think it would be cool to hear what others think too

I'd say there hasn't quite been this kind of divide in the past, or more accurately to this degree of discontent.

Being people, certain tendencies prevail. Rodders would often mock customizers and vice versa. The old "if it don't go, chrome it!" slur came from that. Rods were go, customs were show. Sure, there were exceptions on both sides, but the "image" followed that line. Competition is at the root of a lot of what motivates creative people, and that applies to cars as much as anywhere/anything.

Just some random thoughts;

I would point out that Roth never had a car that wasn't painted in shiny finish. He also worked the show circuit way more than he did the street/strip. He was an artist, a car was just the medium.

When rodders and customizers "went at it" in times past it was anywhere from mild ragging to moderate bickering, hardly the white hot rage thing. What's changed today is there is less respect in general throughout society. Also, there is more of a divide based on, what I would say with some reservation and wishing for a better term, class distinctions. In general I'd attribute it to the "warfare" fostered in the media and their close elitest cousins in politics. The temperament/mood spills over into everyday life and manifests itself in multiple ways. As such you see the self described "rat rodders" spew their "rich guys ruin the hobby" tripe. The older guys don't see themselves that way and resent the personal attack. They retaliate in kind and then the "young guy" feels compelled to do likewise, repeating the cycle. Envy, hate, and narrow mindedness lead to ugly things. While some of us "old guys" haven't helped the situation, I still contend the bigger chip is on the "younger guys" shoulders.

Now, that risks inflaming the us vs them mentality, which isn't what I would like to see. I'd much rather the young guys do what they want to do (within reason without hurting the hobby in general) and let their output stand on it's own. Rather, what we often see on sites like this is young, inexperienced guys making silly comments something like, "I hate those shiny, show car, trailer queens............they're not REAL hot rods". That gets followed with some blather about how cars used to be done, and that's the only legitimate way for a real rod to be. In this they show a complete ignorance of history/reality. The internet and book shelves of numerous stores are jammed with books that chronicle the history of hot rodding with relative accuracy. With a minimum of effort one could see that hot rodding has followed a "natural" progression to where it is today. Largely, well built, and admittedly expensive, rods evolved to where they are because their owners evolved. Many guys who drive high dollar rides today, were low buck guys 40 years ago, just as the young guns today are. As these older guys progressed through their lives they worked at careers that enriched them monetarily, that "improved" their tastes in hot rodding amenities. As an example, in the late '60's early '70's it was innovative to put an automatic trans in a rod. Just as "in the day" customizers were motivated to make their old cars look more modern, even futuristic, so too rodders wanted to put the latest technology in their old buggies. In time this meant adding things like power steering, independent suspension where it hadn't been originally, air conditioning, higher grade materials, and more contemporary colors, among other similar modifications. With each passing year, more and more people were able to afford cars (not just rods, but sports cars, race cars, vintage classics and so on). As our society became more affluent, so did our hobbies. Yet in rodding, the continuing thread was, adapt newer technology to older cars, not unlike what a mid '30's rodder did by putting a flathead V8 in a model T. Then along comes these young upstarts who start saying that that sort of rodding is somehow illegitimate, not necessarily in those words, but by the general tone of their comments and accusations. Well, the old guys who earned their stripes over a few decades of doing "real rodding" just flat don't/didn't like the bad mouthing.

Now, given that the constant thread in rodding since the 1920's has been to upgrade using the newest techology, can "retro rodding" really be hot rodding? Something to contemplate perhaps, but not directly applicable to this thread. I say that as someone who's spent a good part of the last 18 or so years doing mostly "traditional" cars, a term that doesn't necessarily have universal agreement on it's definition. By traditional, I mean representative of what I remember from my youth, with some "poetic" license. Most of them are posted in my gallery. A couple are in suede, both the '40 coupe and the '36 coupe were flathead powered, some were muscle car "restorations", or perhaps more accurately called restifications. The two '32's were more upscale, but not unlike early '60's cars with shiny paint, and small block Chevs. The '72 pickup was a typical early '90's style, and the '33 will be another primered car reminiscent of a car that was parked in a driveway along my paper route in 1961. And not unlike most of my contemporaries they are all driven, not trailered, even though some of them were/are what some would consider "high dollar".

If I had my druthers I'd just as soon there weren't any contentious divide. But as long as there are people new (relatively so) to the hobby who insist on trying to force a negative attitude on those who've walked the path ahead of them, there's gonna be push back.

There's a reason a fish doesn't know he's wet.:3dSMILE:

Great points as usual Bob. To further the theory that hot rodders evolved, I am also seeing some evolution in rat rodders.

I have been posting on a rat rod forum for the past couple of months. One of our members here put me on to it. Something that has surprised me about the guys who participate in that forum is how nice they are. They are just like us older guys were 40 or so years ago. Eager to learn and trying to put together a rod with their own two hands. I am also pleased to see the word "safety" being used quite a bit. Peer pressure on there seems to be driving them toward building better and better rods.

Someone on another forum made a comment that made me stop and think. He said to the effect "the rat rodders may be keeping the interest in hot rods alive within the younger generation, because most of their age group is more interested in tuners and mini trucks." That may be very true. These guys and gals share the same love of vintage tin that we all do, and in some respects are paying tribute to us older guys and the days we came from.

Just something to think about.


Don

Bob, I always take these internet discussions as a little more "noisey" than everyday reality. People are more outspoken when they are out-of-reach. :-)

About three months ago, I attended the only Arizona screening of "tales of the Rat Fink", a lighthearted, partly animated, Roth biography. The guys who attended were a mix of old and young, but all were "hardcore", for sure!

There was some discussion about the new trends, since there were quite a number of cars showing the "rat influence", but generally it was friendly. I was a little suprised that many of my old acqaintances (of my age) were displaying this "influence" on their cars. It was obvious that it wasn't just younger guys. I was a little shocked to hear some of the same arguments about cost, and such, from guys who had a history of traditional builds, and even one who has partly made his living from the hot rod community, for decades!

I guess my point is that I'm finding a percentage of established older enthusiasts are also building in the "rat genre", so it may not be as divisive as I assumed.

My first real involvement with "hotrods" came in 1965 when I moved to Belleville, Ontario and got involved with the Belleville Road Angels. The club membership was limited to 20 people, and surprisingly, you didn't have to have a hotrod----just an abiding interest in them. I was fascinated by the "hotrod" thing, and at the time my car was a 1956 Chev Belair. I only remember about 4 of the guys having "traditional" styled early thirties hotrods, but they were well finished, painted, and upholstered. There were one or two early 50's Chevies in black primer, at least one of the early 50's Plymouth coupes with the trunk about 10 friggin foot long, and I think that it still carried original paint. I don't remember anything that would resemble a "rat-rod" at the time---at least not the "no floorboards/spanner wrench brake-pedal/rust everywhere/ plexiglass windshield/ mexican blanket upholstery" type that are now glorified in "Ol Skool Rodz". Most of us (except one or two older guys) had only one vehicle, which was our daily transportation, our grocery getter, and our "late Saturday night drag car" (which was not sanctioned or approved of by the club). Many of our cars were "works in progress" which meant that you did as much custom bodywork as you could on the weekends, then primered that area to keep it from rusting and drove it that way thru the week. ----Nobody seen red oxide primer as a "finish coat" and the cars were eventually finished and painted some nice gloss finish.-----A few who enjoyed the "rebel" look did keep their rides in black primer (and repainted them about every 3 weeks when the black primer started to turn grey). As someone else on the board here says "we never built them to look ugly". Gradually over the years, as our skills and incomes improved, those of us who stayed with the rodding scene were able to have both a family car and a dedicated hotrod. I personally don't like the "rat-rod" thing. They offend me, and one of my fears is that the unsafe ratty looking damn things will bring down the power of the police on the heads of all the other rodders who try to build safe and well finished vehicles. I make no excuses for my opinions.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Itoldyouso

To further the theory that hot rodders evolved, I am also seeing some evolution in rat rodders.

Don

---

If you remember Don, that was one of the points we tried to make in the famous (or would that be infamous?.....whatever) "Death of Ratrods" thread. We talked about this being another fad that will grow/evolve/pass through, the hobby just as all previous trends did. Oh the howling!!! People who haven't experienced enough to know that change is constant will often prove that denial is more than a river in Egypt. Also stated there was the observation that some of these young builders will move on to higher build qualities in their cars as their experience grows, and their budgets allow. What a concept..............exactly how you, I, and most other "ancient" ones did it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by HOTRODPAINT

There was some discussion about the new trends, since there were quite a number of cars showing the "rat influence", but generally it was friendly. I was a little suprised that many of my old acqaintances (of my age) were displaying this "influence" on their cars. It was obvious that it wasn't just younger guys. I was a little shocked to hear some of the same arguments about cost, and such, from guys who had a history of traditional builds, and even one who has partly made his living from the hot rod community, for decades!

I guess my point is that I'm finding a percentage of established older enthusiasts are also building in the "rat genre", so it may not be as divisive as I assumed.

---

Not to come down on the lad too much, but you'll note it only took 15 minutes after my post for a negative shot to be fired. I know these guys believe what they say about what they perceive they've observed, but that type of claim is patently absurd. If all you observe is what interests you, your obvious opinion is skewed to believe that "everyone" else validates your view. My hope is that in time young folks who take the narrow view will mature to be more aware. I know probably 8-10 people pretty well who own "$100k" cars, and all but one of them couldn't give a rip less if nobody looked at their car. The one exception noted is just an overall jerk in nearly every facet of his life and I'm only aware of him because he's a friend of a friend. (I don't hang with the indoor, winter show, judged crowd so I could imagine there's more of the ego driven car crowd there) The rest of the guys, with one trust fund baby exception, are self made wealth guys. Very comfortable with their achievements in life, and not bragadocious about their success. They don't suffer from the envy that the envious try to project on them. Again, I would hope that as the youngsters mature they learn to grasp that concept.

You're right about the affordability issue. But I'd contend that's always been a factor. To listen to the rat rodder predominant chatter you'd believe there are only two categories of rodders, the poorboy "real" rodders, and those evil rich guys who've ruined everything. Yeah, a slight overstatement on my part..........as Don pointed out some of the RR guys are mellowing, and as a result the older guys are more accepting. Again pretty natural. My point on the cost thing is that it's always been a factor, just relative to each person's situation. We've always had the bucks down folks, they tended to use the less popular, and therefore lower initial cost, starting points. They were the guys with the four door Plymouth sedan, or the clapped out Hupmobile. They would scrounge the best running used engine they could and do a bomb can rebuild. If they had upholstery it was either a worn original or a low cost, mostly flat, vinyl. If they could afford a $5k car, then a $10k car was high dollar. The guy who could afford the $10k car thought a $20k car was high dollar, and his low. The same for the $20k guy and so on. If you remember, about a week or so ago we had a kid on here who thought $15 - 20k cars qualified as "trailer queen" show cars. Pretty tough to take someone like that seriously as far as his knowledge of what the hobby is all about. He's got a lot to learn. That's fine, he would lose a lot of points though if he argues the point from a position of ignorance as we see happen from time to time.

As for the "established" rodders building to the RR fad, not surprising. Some guys really love to build cars, useing them when done is often a short term thing. These guys will build to the current fad because they hope to maximize their sale that will fund the next build. Go where the action is! Today it's with "traditional" cars. In the late '80's, for example, it was pastel, smoothie cars with bold graphics. A decade from now, assuming no major shocks, it will likely be something else.

I think another factor plays into the motivations of the "senior" rodders.....................they're past their prime earning years. Many are retiring to fixed incomes well below what they used to make. They need to learn to do more with less to put it in inadequate terms. Some will sell off and drop out, some will die, some will continue on in a fashion that fits their economic environ. Ain't life grand?:3dSMILE:

I think the sharp contrast of opinions and its demeanor ,is a direct reflection of all aspects of the world today.Parent/ child relations are more agitated today along with shooting someone for flipping you off type mentality.
The U.S. used to be called a melting pot ,and today I think there is a global melting pot happeneing.This has brought about people from all walks looking to maximize there individualism and stand out from the world or not be defined by others actions.Also I see alot of people trying to get back to there roots so to speak to define themselves and these people ,not unlike most people, resist change and fear it will take away from there individualism.

When people feel threat, they tend to feel backed into a corner and therefore lash out trying to define themselves.This may be adding to the demeanor that is displayed to others in rash actions.I do not see this just in rodding ,but in all walks of life rearing its ugly head once again ,all the way from Abu ghirab prison in iraq all the way down to calling a 15 year old kid a terrorist for pulling a fire alarm at school. This problem has only recently found its way to hotrodding .
What was once a large single group of rodders,has been turned into what I like to call factions,now each faction can form there own standpoint and fire away at the other factions trying to define themselves by touting we are the only way or the correct way.We are all part of one big group called people/humans/ and will never come together in harmony as long as the media helps keep us tucked away in faction groups and can divide us.People tend to get along untill they become part of a faction and are unconciously told as part of that faction this is how you should act or build cars.

To sum it up,do not let your culture/faction define you ,its based on a fragile thing called perception,its not permanent or unchangeable and anytime you let a faction define you as a individual you severly limit your room for individualism and growth by being defined by a faction or groups actions, not your own individualism.By trying soo hard to define yourself as a individual by becoming part of a group/faction you limit your endless possibilities and do no more than become part of a group and loose that individualistic flavor you are looking for.

We as a world become more divided everyday and only give this type mentality a place to flourish and grow ,pretty soon we will all be in little 10 person factions all over the world and be at each others throats to conform to this or that factions ideas.Hopefully in 50 or a 100 years all these factions will long gone that divide us and we can get on a path to unite our world and leave room for all to be free thinkers, and start to help humanity as a whole and not just help our particular faction.
God help us get over this divide and conquer mindset that has divided us into these factions,because this is actually what all this is about , different factions jockeying for approval and righteousness thru verbal comunications and looking for verification on this by recrutment numbers and manifestations.

I am not saying groups are bad or clubs,I am talking about fracturing a group such as hotrodders or car people into opposing factions,just look at all the religous groups here in America,we have em all represented here,those are all factions on a common belief of religon,like all these definitions of rods break car people into opposing factions.

Dagburnit ,I done gone and typed a whole book again:LOL: I guess I need to work on my vocabulary and spelling and become a writer:LOL: or atleast refrain from typing a saga everytime I feel compelled by a subject?

Its not all bleak,they tore down the wall over in germany ,maybe we can do the same with all the other invisible walls that divide us and be able to appreciate individualism with out the need to circle the wagons and form factions and start firing the bullets of insult and division at all opposing views....

To sum it up,do not let your culture/faction define you ,its based on a fragile thing called perception,its not permanent or unchangeable and anytime you let a faction define you as a individual you severly limit your room for individualism and growth by being defined by a faction or groups actions, not your own individualism.By trying soo hard to define yourself as a individual by becoming part of a group/faction you limit your endless possibilities and do no more than become part of a group and loose that individualistic flavor you are looking for.



Mighty fine words shawnlee, if only humans could follow, but as we all know too well there is a certain path humans take , your either leading or following



One thing about the rat/ kustom kulture scene that i find annoying, is the fact that there is no backbone in a belief, i tone myself down somewhat on this forum from my naturally rowdy self, not to be politicly correct, but to not cloud my mind from the all around learning that can be achieved from the broud spectrum of minds that post here, ive found that there is no reason to try to force a belief on those that do not want to understand, i haved tried multiple times like now to let all speak in different ways so we could better understand our different car cultures, and to learn some history to educate us younger guys who want to no the history of this hobby we all share and devote damn near every waking moment of our lives too, but back to my annoyance, i find all the excuses that most ratters come up with to try to explain this culture is bullshit, every so called retro greaser/ rockabilly ratter comes up with this "were doing it old skool " crap, but none are willing to defend this hardass image they portray, the way i see it, but this is only my opinion, is no its not all old school ,this is a new culture, its a new rebelion of sorts, there meant to be ruff and rude, thats the line they chose to walk when they decided to build a rat rod, not this i wanna be cool crap so im gonna build a rat rod ,then use the low buck excuse, thats crap, don has proved that you can still build a quality ride for cheap, they chose to build a rat cause they wanted to cool and tough, but they lack the balls to admit that, and it irritates the shit out of me, we all might not like all the styles that can be had, but most here can tell you why they like it , and will defend it, if in life someone chooses to talk a certain talk, then they should have the self respect to walk it to, i know im a little guilty of getting off the original subject here, but i had to vent a little, i thank you guys for all the replies they have been great, lets see if we can contibute some more history lessons its going well so far, oh and im also sorry for breaking my own request of not putting anybody down, ill contain myself now

i think that the main problem people seem to over look is how the definition of hot rod gets taken way out of context. a hot rod by definition is anything you want it to be. it can be a pinto with cool wheels or a bada** pro street race car, or it could be a shiny $100k+ show car, basically to me a hot rod is any type of car, truck, or vehicle in general that brings a huge smile to your face and makes you happy to drive it. for me i like galaxies, i enjoy the smell of a vinyl interior or the sound of open exhaust. i love anything old, anything classic. a hot rod is an expresion of the person that owns it. if everybody spent less time and thought trying to call the other guys out then that would be a ton of time and thought we could all devote to building something thats cool as hell. i have respect for anything i see. if i can see that someone has put time and money into it then i can respect it even if its not what i like. even kids my age with ricers. i respect what they do. they are just doing with what they can afford and most of them dont have a lot of experience with working on cars, and they dont have parents that can teach them like i have been blessed with and even if they do it still doesnt give me te right to call them out and be rude just because they like something diffrent form me. so saying that you cant stand the rat rod guys or the million dollar show car guys is just closed minded. people need to stop building cars for everybody else and start building for themselves. it doesnt matter if no one else likes it, if you do then its a hot rod and its cool. i dont really like chevys but im not gonna rag on someone who does, its what they like so what it doesnt hurt me. but if people are gonna build a car that is unsafe thats where i draw the line, never sacrfice saftey for looking cool. and remember a hot rod is anything that you think is cool. its not what everyone else thinks of your car that makes it a hot rod its what you think of it that makes it a hot rod.
thanks
Tyler

Okay, the new guy is going to wade in here. First off, it is very interesting seeing everyones opinions along with the history lessons. Very few custom cars "offend me" , no, ..... cars don't offend me. Some people offend me but they are not hot rod guys or show car guys, or rat rod guys. There are things I can learn from each of them, and all of them will influence my opinions , good or bad on the style of car I like.
My brother was building a 31 Essex back in the early 80's. He worked and worked on that car, over the period of several years. We pushed it all over the place but never drove it because it never made it to that point while he owned it. He ran out of money and time. Lesson 1, driving a work in progress is more fun than pushing a work in progress.
Years later, I built my usable 76 Ford Bronco into a show truck. The black and candy blue paint job was the best. But I didn't drive it as much, because I did'nt want to get it dirty or (gasp) get a rock chip in the paint. Lesson 2, driving is more fun than polishing. Years later, I own two classic Mustangs, a custom built rockcrawler, and a new GMC pickup and a hotrod,(Ratrod to some). Lesson 3, after owning lots of cars I realized the difference between basic transportation and a car that makes you happy.
My hot rod? I drive it. Will I finish it to a high gloss shine? No, no need, it makes me smile every time I start it up. Is it safe? 4 wheel disc brakes, full cage, harness.
Now for the history. Since cars don't offend me, I was influenced by the drag cars of the mid 60's, All the model cars I built when I was a kid. the Pro Street cars of the 70,s, and show cars from my whole life. When I saw my first rat rod at a car show, I "got it" right away. It all made sense. Big motor rough body plenty of attitude. A year later I was happily driving my own version. I got a top twenty award at a car show last year with it. The guy two cars down from me was about to blow a gasket. He went on and on about how his Camaro was worth $75,000, and there was no way I deserved a trophy. Geeze, he was all red in the face and looked like he was a step away from a heart attack. There had been a crowd around my car all day, and to that crowd, his car looked similar to the other dozen Camaros at the show. He got little attention. Did he have a good car? Heck Yes! I'd love to have a car like his. But I am starting to Ramble, Sorry. That' my two cents.

I read every word of your post, and couldn't find one thing in it I disagree with. It is very much to the point, and accurate. You didn't fault anyone else for wanting a car the way they want it, and yet you explain clearly why you want the ones you have.

Also, we think a lot alike as far as how more useful a car is if you can jump in it and actually use it, and not worry about chips, or a little rash. And yes, everytime I fired up my roadster the sounds coming from the pipes and the way it moved down the road brought a smile to my face. THAT is hot rodding to me too. As for trophies, when we moved to our new shop I put out a couple dozen for the trash guys, and only kept the two tallest ones. They were a pain to dust, and when I won one I knew there were cars that were nicer than mine there that day, but for some reason mine made some judge take notice of it.

Very good post, I enjoyed reading it.


Don

Don,

in your post dated 12-1, you mention belonging to a "rat rod forum". any chance you could share the URL for us?

thanx,

j

Sure, I don't think that violates any rules, does it? If so, sorry for my ignorance.
.


KillBillet.com Rat Rod Forum - Powered by vBulletin


Don

Now you went and did it don, letting out our secret hiding place, we will be banished for sure now, he he he

thanks; i'll give it a visit.

j

The majority of what I see of rat rods would be in magazines,or at car shows. Most are not even close to street legal,so I would assume were trailered to where I saw them. Isn't that in itself kinda going against the theme in which they were built? Wouldn't a better description of a hotrod be a car built for increased driveability and performance and personalization. I think these key elements must be included,or it's just not a hot rod to bgin with. hank

The majority of what I see of rat rods would be in magazines,or at car shows. Most are not even close to street legal,so I would assume were trailered to where I saw them. Isn't that in itself kinda going against the theme in which they were built? Wouldn't a better description of a hotrod be a car built for increased driveability and performance and personalization. I think these key elements must be included,or it's just not a hot rod to bgin with. hank

The majority of what I see of rat rods would be in magazines,or at car shows. Most are not even close to street legal,so I would assume were trailered to where I saw them. Isn't that in itself kinda going against the theme in which they were built? Wouldn't a better description of a hotrod be a car built for increased driveability and performance and personalization. I think these key elements must be included,or it's just not a hot rod to bgin with. hank

The majority of what I see of rat rods would be in magazines,or at car shows. Most are not even close to street legal,so I would assume were trailered to where I saw them. Isn't that in itself kinda going against the theme in which they were built? Wouldn't a better description of a hotrod be a car built for increased driveability and performance and personalization. I think these key elements must be included,or it's just not a hot rod to bgin with. hank

Well alright then. I’ll weigh in on this topic regarding rat rods. I’m guessing that my opinion is as good as anyone else in here so here goes. By the way this is just my viewpoint. If I upset you get over it please.

I grew up in the 60’s and I think that what people call a rat rod, was in my day, really nothing more than some old jalopy that someone had started a restoration or customization on, but needed to drive the car during the project because he didn’t own a daily driver. Be it a 32 Dodge or a 69 Camaro we’ve all seen them going down the road without a hood, with an uncorked exhaust system, and rust poking through a three shade spray bomb primer paint job (I think they call it suede these days). All because the guy ran out of funds, was trying to do the work outside, or the work that had already been done got messed up by driving the car in the rain and snow. This my friends was the root of this movement. The jalopy.

Then some cool West Coast guy in the 80’s with a black Def Lepard T-shirt, a pack of camels rolled up in his shirt sleeve, sporting numerous jailhouse tattoos, a pair of dirty Converse sneakers and purple hair bought one of these old half finished half rusty rods for a couple bills and decided it was cool just the way it was because it was different. Hell they didn’t have the funds to finish it either, so they added some vintage hot rod parts from a swap meet or two just to get it running, laid on a decent pinstripe job just to prove the car was actually done, got a tetanus shot, and started cruisin. All his buddies decided that because Joe Bob found this thing in the condition it was in that that was the way it used to be done-hence-old skool.

Since then some really talented builders started building these cars to look like they weren’t done and to rid themselves of a lifetime of vintage speed parts.