What brand of paint is "the best"

My first rant.
I've been rebuilding a 66 Chevy convertible since September and it's almost ready for paint. The owner, Charlie, showed up over the weekend and says he wants me to use Dupont paint. I've been using Martin Senour paint for the last 20 years on close to 1000 cars and have never had a problem that I could blame on the paint. I asked him why and he said that a coworker told him Dupont is the best paint to use and that he should insist on having it. Is Dupont really "the best"? I think there probably are better brands than M/S but Dupont isn't one of them
I told him if he really has to have Dupont I'll use it but after sleeping on it I've changed my mind.
I have no idea who this guy is who likes dupont or if he ever painted a car. I don't like changing my procedures based on the whims of an idiot.
If the Charlie thinks his friend knows more about painting than I do then I think the Dupont guy should do the paint job.

I replaced the doors, fenders, hood, trunklid, tail light panel and quarter panels on this car as well as the floorboards and trunk floor. All that's left of the original body is a 4 inch strip around the trunk. Charlie has never been happy with anything Ive done up to this point and is slow in paying his bill. If he doesn't like it now he won't like it painted either.

It seems like a no win situation to me. I'm going to tell him to pay his bill and take his car elsewhere to be painted.
Am I wrong? Should I use M/S and listen to him bitch some more? Should I use Dupont and listen to him bitch anyway? Or quit now and let him bitch to his wife and friends? I have a couple of good repeat customers on the waiting list. The more I talk to Charlie the more I want out of this project.

Thanks for letting me rant and blow off steam. I feel better now.




:3dSMILE:

Tell him "I am a pro and have used M/S paint for over 20 years. I am used to working with it and can guarantee teh results. I'll be happy to use any paint you'd like, BUT i cannot guarantee the results. Each paint and company uses slightly different formulas, and different techniques get teh best results. As I am not familiar with DuPont paints, I cannot guarantee the results - so if it sucks, you're paying anyway. BTW, I need to charge more for the DuPont paint as my local supplier does not carry it so i get no discount to pass on to you, i need to get the specific hardeners/thinners/etc for that paint, and need to clean my equipment before and after use to make sure nothing gets cross contaminated and causes problems.

SOOO, charlie, if you are willing to pay more and forgo a guarantee, then sure, I'll use DuPont or Krylon or sears best Latex - your dime."

See what that does.

Back when I painted conversion vans @ Winnebago we used Dupont. When I owned my own body shop I used PPG / Ditzler. Never had any "product quality" problems with either. I've been told by several body shop guys to use House of Color when I get the "Z" ready.
Any of these, Martin Senour included, are quality products, it's more a question personal preference than quality differences. Using compatible products from start to finish would be more critical than brand name I would say.
But then that's like saying Chevy Ford and Chrysler are all quality products. There's always gonna' be diehards out there that will swear by one brand or another.

Blonde, brunett, or redhead?? Bush or Kerry?? Which paint is best?? You're an idiot if you use......................................(fill in blank)!! Ford, Chevy, or Mopar (unfair, everyone loves a Mopar)?
:p

What would have been a real laugh is if he insisted on Sherwin-Williams.............since MS is made by them!!

With consolidation in that industry it's gotten down to very few companies making the product anymore. PPG, Dupont, BASF, Valspar, and a couple others. Yet because of customer preference a lot of the "old" names are still around.

When I had my shop we used BASF, both Glasurit and Diamont (RM). At home I use PPG, only because it seems more tolerant of the less than ideal conditions. The guy I use now to do my complete paints likes Sikkens, although we had a problem with it when I had the shop. (to be fair, I think the rep oversold his product in a non-heated booth environment we had at the time, he tried to use an chemical accelerant to force cross link ---it failed).

I was always skeptical of hiring a painter (for the business) who would only consider using one brand of paint, especially if he had a tale of woe about every other brand of paint out there. Those stories didn't usually sync with the experience we had with whatever the belittled product was. And I wasn't about to reconfigure my business to suit him. The message I drew from that was that the painter was more of a problem than the product. That being said, in your situation, there's absolutely no reason to deviate from what you're comfortable with. You know what to expect, and have your learning curve out of the way. It's your "business". Being picky, bitchy, AND slow pay is NOT a good combination. Sometimes it's necessary to fire a customer. Sounds like Charlie is a real hemorhoid and is giving you the perfect out. Collect your dough and push him out the door.

The last time I fired a customer it took him by surprise. I guess he thought I would be desperate for his business. Like you described, he didn't realize I'd developed a client base that was way more appreciative than he. "Get out of the way buddy, there's another one coming in behind you". The upshot of it was, he realized he'd pooped in his mess kit and nearly begged to get on the schedule. We didn't need his grief. I looked him in the eye and said " Gordon, I just don't want the opportunity to disappoint you again". He had no reply but to leave. Stand your ground.

Kinda reminds me of the "my buddy says..................oil is best" discussion.

Spraytech oughtta get a good laugh about this!

Al - Sounds like Uncle Bob might have a good point...although I don't build street rods for a living, I do have my own sign business, and I know that there are some customers that just have to have it done a certain way, even if it's not the right way to do it.

If you do it any other way, it will never be right, even if the results are better than anything that could have been acheived with their method.

I have never thought of "firing" a customer Bob, but what a great idea...I'll have to keep that in mind for the next one I get that's being a pill...I do have a P.I.T.A. (pain in the a$$) charge that I tack on sometimes for those "special" patrons... :3dSMILE:

"P.I.T.A. (pain in the a$$) charge"
there ya go AL ..... then just smile the whole time . :LOL: :LOL: :LOL:

Quote:

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Originally posted by Hot Rod Angel
Al - I do have my own sign business, and I know that there are some customers that just have to have it done a certain way, even if it's not the right way to do it.
. :3dSMILE:

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You got 'em too huh ...??
My daughter did my business cards on her puter' . Can you letter my truck just like it? :CRY:
Can you do my sign real cheap, cuz' I'm not gonna' use it very long? :CRY:

Quote:

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Originally posted by pro70z28
You got 'em too huh ...??
My daughter did my business cards on her puter' . Can you letter my truck just like it? :CRY:
Can you do my sign real cheap, cuz' I'm not gonna' use it very long? :CRY:

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How 'bout : "I want a really elegant 4' x 8' sandblasted redwood, hand-painted sign with real gold leaf lettering...You want HOW MUCH!?!? But my budget is only $150.00...can't you do any better than that? IT'S JUST A SIGN !

It seems like everybody wants a Ferrari for a Yugo price... :rolleyes:

Quote:

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Originally posted by Hot Rod Angel
How 'bout : IT'S JUST A SIGN !

It seems like everybody wants a Ferrari for a Yugo price... :rolleyes:

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If you cut me a deal I'll tell everybody where I got it. :CRY: :CRY:

They must be everywhere. :LOL: :LOL: :LOL: **)

I gotta go with Uncle Bob on this one too Al. Cut your grief and loses on this guy.

Over more years than I like to think back on, I have had many similar customers that want it for the other guys cheap price, but also want it done their way. In the end they will always find a way to hold payment or try to get it reduced for any possible reason they can think of at the time. I have learned to pick these people out before I ever agree to do a job for them, and just tell them to have the cheap guy do it their way.

Quote:

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Originally posted by pro70z28
If you cut me a deal I'll tell everybody where I got it. :CRY: :CRY:

They must be everywhere. :LOL: :LOL: :LOL: **)

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And here all along I thought that they just liked me...sounds like you're a pretty popular fella yourself, Pro :p:

I almost forgot : "What do ya mean it'll take 2 - 3 weeks?!?! I can go to "Quickie-Signs" & get it today..." :rolleyes:

I'm thinkin' to myself, "Don't let the door hit ya in the butt on the way out..." :3dSMILE:

Quote:

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Originally posted by Hot Rod Angel
And here all along I thought that they just liked me...sounds like you're a pretty popular fella yourself, Pro :p:

I almost forgot : "What do ya mean it'll take 2 - 3 weeks?!?! I can go to "Quickie-Signs" & get it today..." :rolleyes:

I'm thinkin' to myself, "Don't let the door hit ya in the butt on the way out..." :3dSMILE:

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The vast majority of customers are easy to please. It's problee' the same people that go from the body shop to the sign shop to the grocery store, etc. just makin' a livin' out of complaining. :CRY:

Thanks for the support and advice guys and Angel.
Ok.Charlie's fired. I don't think I'll tell him untill I get paid and cash the check.
He "forgot" his checkbook when he was here Sunday and was going to pay me today for April's bill. He didn't show up. He called and left a message that he'd come by tomorrow. If he pays me I'll give him the bill for May and the game starts again. This time while he tries to avoid paying the bill his car's going to sit outside under a tarp so there won't be a June bill. Well maybe storage and the P.I.T.A. tax.
He's expecting it to be done in a couple of weeks so maybe he'll pay quicker this time. When he asks why it's not done I'll tell him I had a compatibility problem with the Dupont and need to talk to his Dupont lovin' friend for some advice. If the guy shows up and knows his stuff he'll inherit the job. If he doesn't know squat I'll tell him to keep his know-it-all nose out of my bussiness and throw them both out.

You tell 'em Al ! :3dSMILE:

Well since I am the new "old" guy I will try to be brief. Obviously you will do the best job relative to your experience and the customer should realize that. However, what happened to "the customer is always right"? For my part I had a MG midget painted in the original burnt orange (with black stripe) paint which was matched with DUPONT ACRYLIC and IT LOOKED WET FOR FOUR YEARS! For my money the Dupont acrylic is the best for gloss! I may be predjudiced because I went to school with the chemist Dupont assigned to keep Gordon's No. 24 Rainbow Car freshly painted for each race and including just about every color on the car! I am still envious of that job assignment! One other "old" comment is that if you go back to Hot Rod Magazine and Rod & Custom of the 1950s, the "thing to do" was to spray your '40 Ford coupe with 30 or more coats of lacquer (nitrocellulose lacquer may not be available anymore) BECAUSE you could spray the car OUTSIDE on a home driveway and then buff out the bugs and dust with a sheepskin disk and cornstarch. After about 20 times this coat got pretty shiny and even black could be applied this way, assuming the sheet metal was straight. Sooo, if it is my car I will request DuPont Acrylic every time and maybe you should experiment with it OR if you can find some nitrocellulose lacquer you can send the guy home with a Sears sprayer and a box of cornstarch. By the way, I mean no disparagement of your skill as a painter, it is just that I like the DuPont Acrylic (it looks WET forever!).

Best wishes,
Don Shillady
Retired Scientist/teen rodder

Hey Al, this guy sounds like a dick, tell him to pay up and go somewhere else. as there are plenty of people waiting for your expertise.

I think Al you had the right idea......get your money from April???, and hit him with Mays bill due at the end of May. Then I'd shove it to the very back burner, and wait for him to ask for it - then I'd tell him that because of his late payments that I'd have to recive the final payment in advance in full.
You have to get on even ground first before you can go any further. If he pays you I'd paint it with whatever he wants, and do the very best I could, if he balks from there than your out nothing.

Well I see ol Bob mentioned my name so I will throw my 2 cents in here also .
I am a PPG man for 30 years , I know the product fowards and backwards, and i have tried other brands and they all are good today.
Its what you get comfortable with using what it boils down too.
The only thing I can express is never mix and match paint products now days as the manufactures formulate it to be compatiable with their product line , no one elses, ( not say that it cant be done ) but if a problem ever arises and ask for help they always ask what products you are using , if you say well i have dupont this , and PPG this , and R&M for this , they will say Sorry we cant help you.
I would tell my customer this , and if he still wants dupont on it , tell him the guys that thinks dupont is the best can finish it , and you will not stand behind your work after it has dupont on it , as you used products for your brand specificly.

I get so sick hearing through the years that this brand is better then the other, its usually because some one had a bad experiance with that product and will never use it again............I have shot it all , but beings i have used PPG for so many years I know what I can do with it , plus it makes me a damn good living spraying it.

I think from what Iv'e heard over the years PPG is better quality than M/S but there's no place around here that sells it. If you want a custom mixed color for a special project then House of Color is the place to go.

I have an Econoline pickup that I painted in the late 70s with M/S acrylic enamel that still has a very good gloss except where it's rusted around the edges. It's never been garaged. It's never been buffed or rubbed out. I did a 71 ElCamino around the same time. The guy I sold it to has kept it garaged and only drives in good weather. He waxes it once a year and the paint still looks fresh. So I know it's good paint even if it's not the best.

I used Dupont on my 56 Packard that's in my gallery because NAPA didn't have the formula. I don't dislike Dupont paint. It's just as good as M/S. I doubt that it's better. I used it for a couple of months when I opened a body shop in N.H. in 1986. I switched back to M/S when the parts store wouldn't let me open an account until I had been in bussiness for one year. I had been working at my Maine shop for several years before but that didn't matter to the bean counters so I continued doing bussiness with NAPA where I already had an account. The NAPA store in N.H. billed it to my Maine account.

As for the cliche that the customer is always right. It doesn't apply to things the customer knows nothing about. And it doesn't say that the customers friends are always right. If we had an understanding at the start of this project that he wanted Dupont paint there would be no problem. (except for being a slow paying jerk).

I have the car in M/S primer now so to do it right I should take it back to bare metal (and plastic) and use Dupont primer and thinners. I'm not willing to do it to please Charlie's friend who may very well be a bigger jerk than Charlie.

The car has no engine, trans, interior,grille,bumpers or any of the trim. It's riding on four mismatched wheels, two of them keep going flat. With a high gloss light blue metallic paint job it's still going to look like crap. Charlie won't be able to visualize it assembled. He'll see a piece of crap. How many of us have brought home our dream car and had people ask why did you buy that piece of junk? We can see it as a finished car they can't. Charlie's one of them.

I would rather have him complain about not getting his paint job than to have him complain about the finished product. I don't have a spray booth. I can suggest a couple of shops that do and can do a better job spraying it than I can but they know I'm easy to get along with. If he tells them he's had problems with me they probably won't take the job.

I personally use ppg products. Which ones better. I think all of the bigger names are comparable and haven't had a lot of problems with any of them. Way back when I went to tech school used ppg, dupont, sikkens, and a little r-m. I thought they were all good, although sikkens I would always get a little run or two in. Shops I've worked in have used the chromabase system or deltron. I get ppg usually if I go buy the paint, but using another brand of paint doesn't bother me. I get ppg because they seem to be just a little less expensive around here and I've used it a lot with good results. Even the less expensive lines you can get decent results with. Haven't ever used Martin Seymour or Sherwin Williams products yet, but use what works for you. We tried some sherwin williams primer at a place I worked an no one liked it, and it makes me think house paint. I know what you mean by that kind of customer. I just started doing stuff on the side, and I think I've heard everyone of those mentioned. My friend says dupont is the best, well why don't you take it to him and have him do it then if he knows so much and is such an expert. What they usually want is how much can I jerk you around, and I want it done for nothing. Or how bout my friend told me he would only charge this, but he is so busy now he can't do it. There are lots more, but I'm sure everyone has heard them. Maybe its just the name Charlie. I did a car when I was young for a guy my dad worked with and the guy was a jerk. Did the car for next to nothing, took everything apart and painted and looked nice. Guy next door built rods for a living said, you did a really good job on the car, he'll be happy. Charlie even complained when he got it back about the fact his revel mouldings moved if you pushed on them. I said they are gonna move a little they are held on by clips. I dug all the butyl tape that was holding them on before and replaced the clips. Ended up pumping urethane behind them. Find out the guy went to get his window tint and complained so much he got it done free. Wish I would have know that before I even touched his car, idoit didn't deserve that nice of a car anyways, but mommy left it to him. Its always the cheapo's too. The service manager at one place I worked was good. One guy was a pest, and he told them, we don't need your business anymore, please take it elsewhere from now on.

My first post and my 2 cents....i use Dupont paint everyday..and it is the most over rated product i have ever seen.....there color matching is way off.

They promote themselves through Nascar well.....but that is all...now they are trying to launch a wanna be custom paint line..hot hues......
....they are simple pearl base coats..for 30 dollars a pint......i would recommend sikkens.....or m/s or PPG....
..
...and if your truely going kustom go with House of Kolor ....there is none better in the kustom painting field..... Good Luck..

Hey Al, I've never had any problem pushing a guys stuff out the door for the reasons you've mentioned. If you know the guy is never going to be happy anyhow, lose him.

I think this is more of a preference than anything else. I personally use, and love DuPont. I would recommend dupont any day. House of Kolor, in my opinion is CRAP!...one of my buddies was spraying his truck that he just did an insane amount of body mods. to, getting it ready for the World of Wheels. He laid out some sweet flames, and started spraying with hok, only because everyone talked it up so much, he is normally a dupont guy also. needless to say the clear sucked. after wetsanding and a ton of buffing, the paint still looked like flat black. needless to say he got a full refund on his paint, but that still doesn't undo the damage done. So, that was just a time that made me love dupont even more, they have a good selection of clears, which i like all of them. If you really want the best, go with their Premier line!
This is a pic of my daily driver spayed in none other than Dupont!
But as i said, there is probably no such thing as "the best" paint. Im sure there are plenty of people who have bad experiences with dupont, as well as every other brand out there.

Just a business note.
I am not in the automotive business professionally but i am self employed and really doesent matter.

You know if you are satisfied with your work and the product you use.

The customer is always right may apply to making pizzas but not to a tradesman.

It is up to the customer to find out what products you use if they have a specific preference. Then they can decide on you or go elsewhere.
You cant compromise your business and thechnic unless use learn something new which we always do. however you have a product you know and have had success with.
Do your thing because when you change for those reasons you will always pay for it. ALWAYS, its the law or something.

Now if I could give you some advice,
I would stand steadfast on your paint and explain to him this is your product period.
Get totally caught up on your invoice then get a down payment on the paint job if you are concerned with him. Either way keep the car until payed in full.

If he is hell bent on dupont maybe you can work out something on finihing the bodywork and let him go elsewhere. On good terms. Even though most pro painters wont touch someone elses body work.

I know its easy to tell them to get screwed or something but the key is to get paid and make them think you are tryin to help them out.

Other than that dont waste your time , thats worth more than money.

Good luck