Body work, bondo, and babes!

Okay, not really any babes, but I liked the aliteration, and I thought it would ensure I got your attention. Worked, didn't it?:LOL:

As the years have gone by the argument over lead versus polyester filler (often called bondo, which is a trademarked name, but could be any brand) has diminished somewhat. In part it's likely that the older guys who learned how to use it when they were young, and when it was the best (only?) choice have been dying away. Some younger guys have chosen to master the art of the lead stick, but then, polyester filler has been with us almost 50 years now (I guess that makes it "geezer" filler, however you want to interpret that). Admittedly the early stuff had some serious limitations, but as with most any product, time and technology march on. Today's products work very well, despite the old wive's tales, as long as they are used properly.

While searching the net for some other info I came across a good set of discriptive articles on how best to utilize polyester fillers and what proper and improper uses are to be used/avoided. Instead of trying to regurgitate it all here, or cut and paste, I'll post the link as it's fairly long and pretty detailed. So if you've ever wondered why polyester filler didn't work the way you thought it should, why the fiberglass work you did blew up, or why the filler work you did started bubbling after a few years, this will give you some insight. I especially appreciated his comments about sealing the BACK side of the repaired panel, as this has been one of my (many) pet peeves that I think is too often overlooked.

http://www.roadsters.com/filler/

Bob you just taught me some thing new. I did'nt know about sealing the back of a repaired fenders but it makes good sence. I never took any body work classes, just mainly watched some friends. Did learn a few things on my own though, trail and error type deal. I did notice that some of the old cars I bought with bondo work done mostly poped out after a while, just like you said. So I used a fiber filler and treated the rust as well before doing any filler work. I guess thats why the old bondo was poping out, because the back of the fender was not sealed where they drlled holes to pull the dent out. the old bondo would act just like a sponge and absorb all the water it could and pop right out. I was wondering how that water was getting thru the paint, HE! HE! I fell like a real idiot now, Oh well live and learn. Now I'm going to have to say what I've learned in Bob's body class 101. thanks.


~ Vegas ~

Thanks for the info!

Man, I wish I would have read that before I would have started my last project. First time using bondo and it didn't turn out as well as I had hoped. Oh well, maybe now I'll be able to do it better.

Abe

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Originally posted by Streets
I know the feelin' BBB"HH"Bob. Gettin' lax in yer old "Geezership" daze now?? hehehe Nice link.. :LOL:

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Well, actually it was time to do oil change and some PM on the lawn tractor, then cut the lawn. It's rained here everyday for a week, so it was way tall. Had to do a double cut to keep from clumping up the mulcher deck.

Vegas, glad you got some useful info. I hate that hole in the sheetmetal, dent pulling stuff. Here's a link to another thread where we talked about a better way to not brutalize the tin. Also Spraytech had some good advice on spray equip. http://www.clubhotrod.com/forums/sho...ght=spitznagel

Abe, practice, practice, practice. But it do help to start with the right products and procedures.

This is just a thought i had on this subject,
The Plastic filler products today are way better today then the lead bars of today , as EPA, OSHA, and Health department , has gotten so involved with our automotive products that I would imagine the lead bars are so depleted of the unhealthy contenents of yesteryear that they would be of substandard. Plus the scientists that develope the primers , sealers , dont really design thier products for lead work.
Its great that guys are trying their hands at learning how to work lead , but its a time consuming process, i did learn it and didnt like it at all as I could do it alot faster in bondo and it looked alot better too . it requires a few more tools to do in lead then with bondo also ,, Oxyacetylene torch, bees wax, an assortment of paddles for appling the lead, and assortment of vixen files.
bondo, you need just a piece of cardboard to mix, 1-2 sizes of plastic spreaders , and a couple of blocks , and a couple of grits of sand paper.
Ok thats more then a thought , and just my oppinion .
SprayTech

DAGBURNIT little joe , aint no babes here!

Thanks for that site and info Bob, just in time for my project I am doing. I haven't done the back or inside of the panels yet but it's still not too late to save the day. haha. I haven't read the whole thing yet but am going to here in a second after I eat. Got any paint tech sites to help me out?
Shawnlee28, since there is no babes here I will post one up for you after I eat... heh

Is this what you were expecting? That was kind of hard to find one on here with her top ON because I know there's no nudity because geezers on here might get offended. :LOL: Either that or jelious (sp). :p :LOL:

Mmmhmm, look at that bondo. :D

You said what? You wan't one of my girlfriend? Ok, just don't tell her. :LOL:

:D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

I wish? Nah I don't need to wish. And just because she is 51 years old doesn't mean nothing. Haha just messing, a bit too old for me. Oh well.

Looks 51 years young to me!:3dSMILE: :D :3dSMILE:

Thanks for the link, Bob. Lots of good info there. Appreciate it.

wow....a lot to pick from, not really into training 'em anymore, and not sure if I could keep up with the 51 yr. old

Never enough information at the time one needs it.
This would heve saved much frustration in the past.
No such thing as a plethora of knowledge. Thanks Bob!

Thankx for the information Bob. Kinda hate to get back on the origional idea (kinda like the pictures) but I was just wondering if the bonda, body filler, stuff could be used correctly to fill the trim holes on my car? Seems like they are multiplying, first there were hundreds, then thousands, now millions of these small holes. Could I use this stuff or should I break down, buy a MIG welder and learn to weld them?

Roper that's a good question because I have seen cars like that and wonder the same thing too. I asked a friend of mine that's in collision repair and he said that it all depends. I would think welding it would mess the sheet metal up if not done correctly though. I would just bondo them probably, that's what I am doing now but I am doing it on a golf cart so it's not no show car or nothing.

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Originally posted by Roper
but I was just wondering if the bonda, body filler, stuff could be used correctly to fill the trim holes on my car?

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Generally the answer is no. There's nothing in the center of the hole to support the filler. They tend to form a fatigue crack ring around the perimeter of the hole over time which looks particularly bad when painted. Eventually could even fall out leaving you with the hole again.

For Edges or trim, i find that Fiberglass or metal is a lot more secure. The glass is formable and resists impact, and welding is, well, welded. Oh, and as for the "Bondo Babes" Nice choice people. The 51yr old looks to be well preserved. Is that a resto job? :LOL:

I guess I made a mistake on the holes then. I used bondo on them but first put tape behind the holes, put bondo on, let it dry and then put some on the back as well to smooth it out.
So what can I do about it since I can still nock it out, sand it and start over...?

Biggest problem with the holes is that it lets moisture through behind the bondo, leading to rust, leading to lifting. Unless you can find a way to seal the holes from the back you will be better off to bite the bullet, remove the bondo and weld up or braze the holes full. Don't wait until you have finished painting to find out you have a problem.

<<<------click on my camera I have some pics of just what hes sayin about not sealin the back o the fender up .The shot is of a welded patch and the fender emblems and not having sealed on the back(big no no just ask Bob) these shots of the fender are with brazing the holes closed and not sealing the back. I can only imagine what the front would have looked like with just bondo. The holes would have been as big as the rust spots on the fender !!!:CRY:

Now I have a challenge! I have this spot above my right rear tire that is now a big hole due to rust. My original plan was to just Bondo it up a bit but the more rust I cut away the more there was. The hole is huge! The filler is also difficult to cut through. I'm going to sand it down with a drill attatchment I have, and I was thinking about welding a piece of sheet metal to the back and filling it with Bondo so that I would have something to shape it on, but I've never welded before. I thought it would be a fun project since I want to get into doing body work in the future but I am very confused as to what would be the best way to go about it. Any suggestions?

Hi Bob - great subject. I have one comment - I have been taught to always apply Epoxy primmer(PPG's DP) before applying Bondo & to not put bondo on bare metal.

It's been a long time since I went to PPG's paint school. Have things changed?

thanks Don

Shawn, there is no camera next to your name that I see...
Also Meag, if you do want to start welding then get a small Miller 135 MIG welder and practice and you will get pretty good. They give you a video with it that helps you learn different kinds of welds, etc. Anyways, looks like I am going to have to take most of my bondo off and weld it. I was working with the dollies and all I have gotten from a friend and hitting all these bends and dents out (really bad from the rear end smashing into my brick house) and it was hitting out the bondo in the holes from just the vibration.
I didn't know you are supposed to primer before bondo. Are you supposed to or what? If so then I never knew.

Don, you bring up an interesting question. One thing I'll do is to put the emphasis on your use of the word EPOXY primer, so that the unfamiliar don't think you mean just any primer because of their lazy reading or inexperience.

I've done both, and had satisfactory results. My understanding of the logic behind putting down EPOXY primer first is to seal the ground and derusted metal surface from future attack by moisture. Polyester body filler is porous and will absorb moisture, which will eventually work it's way down to the bare metal. The other side of the coin says to get the filler work done without delay, and then seal it with an EPOXY primer as soon as possible to prevent that moisture migration. I suspect both methods are effective as the sealer is the moisture barrier, it's just a difference of which layer it is.

Polyester filler needs "tooth" (basically sanding scratches) to attach itself, mechanically, to the surface covered. On an EPOXY primed surface it might require some roughening of the coating to gain that "tooth".

Perhaps Spraytech can give us some up to date info since I'm a few years removed from the current technology.

Back again.... The product info sheet for PPG's DPLF says to apply fillers after 1 hr for one coat of epoxy primer & overnight for 2 coats( no sanding).I have done it this way for around 20 years.
I've heard that ,as strange as it sounds, bondo adhears better to epoxy primmer than bare steel(roughed-up w/heavy grit sand discs.)
If anyone has been to a PPG,Dupont...etc school lately, give use the lattest test results.
This has been a much debated subject by do it yourself body men for years.

Don, yes PPG still reccomends doing it the way you have described, but with all the new products they have developed , I havent used the DP line in at least 4 years .
DPLF isnt the best product to use in a production shop as it has a tendency to soak up a paint job
( loose its shine), when you put the heat to it in a bake booth. Its still a good professional product but beings they had to redesign the product( remove lead content) its not as good as it once was IMO.

I used it( DPLF 90) on my 37 after having it sand blasted as you cant beat it if its going to sit for awhile before doing any body work to it .


SprayTech

Spraytech - If you do not use DP, what do you use.....K36? Do you put filler over it?
Don

I still do it the old way, i grind the paint away, then spread my plastic filler over bare steel, then I use NCP 271 Corrosion Resistant primer as it has the etching chemicals built into it.
Been using it for 4 years now and no problems yet.

Don the way you are doing it is just fine, if your not having any problems and comfortable still doing it , by all means keep doing it.

Spray

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Originally posted by FMXhellraiser
Shawn, there is no camera next to your name that I see...
Also Meag, if you do want to start welding then get a small Miller 135 MIG welder and practice and you will get pretty good. They give you a video with it that helps you learn different kinds of welds, etc. Anyways, looks like I am going to have to take most of my bondo off and weld it. I was working with the dollies and all I have gotten from a friend and hitting all these bends and dents out (really bad from the rear end smashing into my brick house) and it was hitting out the bondo in the holes from just the vibration.
I didn't know you are supposed to primer before bondo. Are you supposed to or what? If so then I never knew.

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Thank you:)

Your welcome.

I see a camera next to everyones name. that goes to ur gallery right ?:confused:

Yeah, it must just be my computer then.... I used to see them all the time but not anymore? Oh well.

Some good info uncle Bbbob, how about a few tips for the lead stick tho I'm getting ready to do the body on my galaxie car and want to use lead stick but some of use young bucks aint gotta clue.

Otto