Kandy Kolors - Dangerous stuff to breath?

I'm getting ready to finish up painting my elky with House of Kolor products and I'm watching Jon Kosmoski's DVD "Kustom Painting Made Easy"...a great video, but now I know why they have classes for this paint system!:eek: I've only painted about 4 cars, and never with House of Kolor products, but I've always thought they were the best finishes at shows and runs.:toocool:

Anyway, through the primer, sealer and base coats, Jon is wearing a normal air filter mask with two filters. But when he goes for the Kandy coat (UK I think) he wears a mask with an exterior air supply (Aqualung almost, but a lot newer) and hood!!!:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: !!!

The January 2007 Technical Manual doesn't say anything about special dangers with the Kandy coat, but should I be making a down payment on a burial plot if apply the Kandy coat only using a two cannister filter mask? I know that all of these paint materials are hazardous, but is this Kandy stuff particularly bad?

Thanks in advance for any and all opinions, thoughts, ideas or anything else that might keep your motor humming!

Kandy in a premixed, or mixed from concentrate, is no more dangerous than the other urethane base colors, but if he has added a catalyst/hardener to the mix he is spraying, then the hazzards get worse, and a remote air mask is the way to go.

Before you get too paranoid, I've been painting for 40 years, and have not had health problems......... yet....... other than growing an extra arm, and turning pearl green. Just kidding. :-)

You can spray uncatalyzed paints with a charcoal mask, but if you intend to spray catalyzed paint, invest in a remote air setup.

Whew, thanks for the words of support HOTRODPAINT, I definately need them

I was planning on using the urethane enamel finish (tougher coating?) and that is the one that does require a catalyst. But the same color in an acrylic lacquer finish does not use the catalyst.

But is the acrylic as good as the enamel (in durability anyway)? Maybe my idea that the urethane enamel is all that is based on just plain pooh?:HMMM:

'Cus if the acrylic is as good as urethanne and doesn't require expensive equipment, I'll go with the acrylic. But I also understand that if I use an acrylic Kandy, I need acrylic base coat too, is that right?:confused:

But if the Urethane is the way to go for durability of color/finish and a onetime exposure with a charcoal mask and HVLP gun won't make my arms fall off, then I'll stick to my guns and plow on!

So many questions! But I know that I'm going out on a limb by using Kandy (being the in-experienced painter that I am) and I'm just trying to get my arms around this stuff.

Many thanks for all your ideas, thoughts.......

The thing to look for is isocyanates (typically diisocyanates) which are typical in many hardeners. I am using AU (Acrylic Urethane) and it is in there. I am using a charcoal mask and painting my one car outside with a light fan to direct fumes away from my face (within reason).

I've read some people can have a quick and severe reaction to isocyanate exposure. Usually begins with a scratchy and swolen throat. I breathed it for sure painting the bottom of my 32 earlier and experienced no problems. It's not so much mixing that is the issue, rather, when it becomes a mist during application that should be avoided injesting. From what I have researched long term exposure is much more of a concern. Like if you did this for a living like HRP!

Kitz

If you don't collapse and die after the first 15 minutes of spraying, you'll probably be okay----Seriously though, a charcoal cannister type mask should keep you safe while spraying any of the custom finishes. Make sure that the mask fits your face well and don't be afraid to pop in some new charcoal cannisters if you find it hard to draw air thru the mask or start to "taste" the paint while you are spraying. It is also a good idea to wear something with long sleeves so that you avoid a lot of contact between the paint mist and your skin.

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wears a mask with an exterior air supply (Aqualung almost, but a lot newer) and hood!!! !!!

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Wow things have really changed. Back in the mid 70's I used to paint motorcycles and cars with Dupont Imron in an unventilated paint bay with out even a mask let alone an air mask.

Probably why I am like I am today.:eek: :whacked: :whacked:

My painting days ended when I hung up my Binks model 7. :CRY:

Kitz, you're right, that's what Jon was talking about on the DVD! Isocyanates! Man that sounds bad! I hadn't thought about covering up more skin, though sometimes that is tough to do down here! I'll check out a nice white, light shirt from back in my shirt and tie days, I think I've got one or two around. Don't know if they still fit, but there is alway the Ross store!

Thanks Brian! That is what I've been thinking about, but am glad to hear that some other person (still alive:LOL: ) has a similar view!

Mopar, do they still make Imron? The first time I ever saw that it was on a camero, as red as could be! Folks said it was an aviation paint and was tougher than nails...is it still around? You should see what we used to break down asphalt samples back in the 70's...super bad!

OK, it looks like the opinion is it won't kill me so I'll be careful and make sure my HVLP isn't misting.

But a question remains, which is better, acrylic or urethane enamel?

Thanks again for all the help!

Here is the deal:

Urethane is far, far better than lacquer! That is why the entire auto industry has switched! Paint your car with lacquer, and it will die in 1/3rd the time that the urethane will last. In cold weather lacquer will crack, and in hot weather the gloss will die. I'll attach a before and after picture of a PPG lacquer job. This was a Street Rodder cover car, but the owner had limited garage space, and it sat outside for 18 years.....and this is good quality PPG lacquer!

Isocyanates build up in your body, and it can not get rid of them. The day will come that you will have a reaction, like your throat swelling shut, which means your body reached it's limit. I have several friends who this has happened to, and it means you are done painting! The next time you use it you can die.

You do not normally use a catalyst in anything except the primer, and the final clear coat. A few painters do, but it is expensive overkill.

I have been told by more than one expert that a charcoal mask will not protect you from Isocyanates. They will go right through it! Do you want to risk it?

Wow!

“You've got to ask yourself one question: 'Do I feel lucky?' Well, do ya punk?”:HMMM:

That is exactly the message that Jon was talking about with regard to Isocyanates in the DVD!

...and seems to be the message from folks who know. I love this forum!

I mean where can you get a before and after photo that directly answers a question? On the same day! Right here in Hot Rod City my friend!

Thanks again HOTRODPAINT!

I'd bet that after 18 years those two sweeties don't look as good either---even if they were kept inside!!!:LOL: :LOL:

The funny part was when I went up to the new owner, and said "I'm ashamed to tell you, but I painted your car." :-)

We obviously talked about the old paints vs. new paints,...... and now I am going to do a new, more intense paint scheme for him, that combines the old look with some new ideas, and a name he has in mind. Usually I don't get to paint over my past work, unless the new owners want to "lose" the former identity.

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Originally Posted by brianrupnow

I'd bet that after 18 years those two sweeties don't look as good either---even if they were kept inside!!!:LOL: :LOL:

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Yes! Skin cancers are not considered attractive! :-(

...of course, dim lights, a few beers, and the girls do get prettier at closin' time!

Just to add one more voice of caution. Different people react at different rates to isocyanates, so what might work for one person may be deadly to another. It can also migrate through skin contact, not just inhalation. You can buy an inexpensive spray suit made of Tyvek material that will cover your body for infrequent useage.

Bob, wasnt that a Tyvek suit that you made me wear when we went to the "gentlemen's club" in Vegas? Why did you make me burn it before I got into your car to leave the club?

mike in tucson

Mikey, I think you're confusing your trips. You wore the tyvek suit when you went to the "Dude" ranch in Montana...................and you were a baaaaaaaaaaaad boy!:D

Bob, I'm on my way to harbor freight! Anyone know where I might find an in-expensive suit? Not the one that Mr Roboto is talking about!

Is catalyst used in other paint types? I must have run across it before? DuPont was the last paint that I used bc/cc with reducer and catalyst in the clear coat?

Maybe memory loss is a sign that I've got a reaction to this stuff?

Ewe make me laugh, Bob. I did have my tall boots on at the ranch (and a sheepish grin). Hmmm Hope you didnt get pictures! You'd try to fleece me by selling the pics!!

mike in tucson

Eric, the tyvek coveralls are cheap...about $3 each pair unless you are a xxxxl and tall. McMaster Carr sells them plus your local paint supplier will usually have them...even the house paint guys stock them.

mike in tucson

Mike,

Nope, more like a 40 short!:D

Thanks for the info!...and good luck with keeping those pics underground!!!!

Dude ranch in Montana???:eek:

I would have never guessed!

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Originally Posted by Hot Rod Surfer

Bob, I'm on my way to harbor freight! Anyone know where I might find an in-expensive suit? Not the one that Mr Roboto is talking about!

Is catalyst used in other paint types? I must have run across it before? DuPont was the last paint that I used bc/cc with reducer and catalyst in the clear coat?

Maybe memory loss is a sign that I've got a reaction to this stuff?

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Any paint with a hardener probably contains isocyanates. I know they have tried to develop non-isocyanate catalysts, but when I tried to help one of my friends to locate one, there did not appear to be any that made it to market. I assume it was either too expensive, or not a satisfactory replacement.

(QUOTE) Maybe memory loss is a sign that I've got a reaction to this stuff? (QUOTE)

I've been spraying catalyzed paints for over 20 years. Memory loss is a possibility, and other possible symptoms I have noticed are gray hair, the need for glasses, and weight gain.

the Ku 100 is the product that you need to be carefull with. If you have access to a paint booth that will help. I usually wear a disposable paint suit and a 3m 7193 paint mask. Just use common sence and you'll be fine.

And I might add , all masks DO NOT fit every face , 3m has them in 3 sizes ,
make sure a snug fit seals around your face is important !
There are other brands to look into also !

Plus Isocyanates go towards your eyes the worst , it likes moisture and goes towards it , I wear glasses now and if I wear them in the booth when I spray , the insides of the lenses have more overspray then the outsides , after 30 years of spraying this stuff , I had my eyes checked and had to go to tri -focals 4 years ago . I think due to the constant contact of these materials , as I am in the booth all day long 5 days a week .
I used to use a fresh air system , but quit using it after getting walking Pneumonia 2 times in 6 months when it was winter , as 32 deg. air isnt good for the lungs either :o

Guys , just be careful using these products !

I will field a question, since I do not stay abreast of every new product on the market.

Is there any kind of mask,.... other than a remote air, or a fresh air setup that has air "piped in",.... that is approved for isocyanates? I will not use it, but this question seems to keep coming up.

HRP, here is what your uncle says about it:
http://www.osha.gov/SLTC/isocyanates/index.html
Your dollars support his web page!

mike in tucson

If you're not going with a fresh air system, the second best is a full-face mask with filters for organics. The reason OSHA wants fresh air systems is that you can't smell isocyanates, so you can't tell when the mask is leaking. The positive pressure in the mask keeps the fumes out.

Maybe I'm naive, but I believe a full face mask with fresh organic filters, a hood, long sleeve shirt and long pants will protect you during the occasional project. I believe this is especially true with good ventillation and HVLP - which causes less misting.

That's how I've done my last two or three projects, and I see no ill effects.

Typical government generated information! If you sift through the landslide of info,.....

As far as I can tell, they summerize that there are not adequate safety measures designed into filtered masks to prevent physical harm.

The problem is with certain types of isocyanates that can exist in either particle or vapor forms. Some masks work okay under ideal conditions, (though I could not decipher which one, or ones) , but they don't offer a system to tell you when you are past the point of being protected!

Not for me! It's a simple enough thing to use air from another room, and know you are eliminating much of the threat.

The paints I use,,,days after spraying acrylic enamels or urethane,,,if I take my fingernail and scratch across to cut,,,the enamel(hardened) scratches but the urethane won't!

Like they all said, use a full faced mask, a cheap disposable suit (tie the ends of the sleeve's off with tape and around your waste so it doesn't hit the paint and so sweat doesn't roll off your wrists into the paint job because you will sweat in that thing in the summer or fall time). I was wanting to get a fresh air system at my work but I never had the money. I was using a plain filtered mask now for a little over 2 years. It was ok but I can tell it didn't filter out everything and the thing about the eye's, I wondered about that because sometimes I'd go home after painting all day and my eyes would bother me and the insides of my glasses were COVERED with clear and paint more than the outsides of the lenses too.
Since your only doing your one vehicle and not doing this everyday then of course a fresh air system isn't needed and a regular mask or full face mask is fine.

Oh yeah, almost forgot. Only reason the guy on the video was using a fresh air mask is because of course he's got lots of money and top of the line equipment. :)

FMX, I think you've hit the nail on the head!

FAYLUR, thanks for answering my question about acrylic vs. urethane!

Thanks everyone for chipping in with a thought!

I'm going to do more protection than I have in the past by getting a tyvek suit although I will stick with my normal face mask/filter system.

But I'm also going to try and find some goggles to protect my opticals!:cool:

My neighbor sprayed his car in his garage. He used a cup gun, charcoal mask, ect. Top quality blue metallic urethane. He died one year later from liver cancer. Go with the scuba gear.

I hate hearing the "worse case stories" like that.... It's like when I hear people tell me they had a huge wreck on a motorcycle and not to ever ride again. It makes me not want to ride anymore but I will do it anyway's. That liver problem could have came from anything. Painting one vehicle in your garage should be fine as long as you wear a mask, gloves, the suit and eye protection. I'm only 20 and have breathed in TON'S and tons of paint in the last 3 years it's not even funny. On top of that, I didn't wear gloves, nor eye protection, or the suit and had my hands in thinner every day and breathed in bondo dust and fiberglass (this is everyday too, not just once in a while). I tried to wear a mask as much as I could when sanding and such but in the summer with glasses it doesn't work too well. And when you have a cheap boss that doesn't buy you suits, gloves or a fresh air system and you have to pay for everything yourself and you dont even make 280 bucks a week, it's kind of hard to buy things like that.

Get a new job. You can't live on that pay.

I quit on Friday already. I've been working there for over a year and a half. I surprisingly did live on that pay but I never had ANY money left over to buy tools, parts for my vehicles, nothing. Just went towards bills, med insurance, vehicle insurance, phone bill, etc. I liked working on what I did but that was about all that was good there. There isn't a lot of custom shops here like there is in California, Arizona and the west coast. If I still lived in CA then I'd probably be much more ahead that where I am at now.

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Originally Posted by FMXhellraiser

I quit on Friday already. I've been working there for over a year and a half. I surprisingly did live on that pay but I never had ANY money left over to buy tools, parts for my vehicles, nothing. Just went towards bills, med insurance, vehicle insurance, phone bill, etc. I liked working on what I did but that was about all that was good there. There isn't a lot of custom shops here like there is in California, Arizona and the west coast. If I still lived in CA then I'd probably be much more ahead that where I am at now.

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So move back there...You're young and single, why get yourself in a rut working for chump change when you don't have to????? Heck, I'm 57 and I'm gonna blow this pop stand and start over in another year or so-----Geez, that isn't even a reason, just an excuse!!!! You're right out there in NASCAR country, go get yourself a job with one of those shops, pay your dues, sweep the floor, etc and eventually move up to the fab shop or something!!!!! At age 20 no reason to stick yourself in a go nowhere job that endangers your health!!!!!!

I'm young but not single. :D Everything seems to endanger everyone's health now. You get cancer just by breathing or eating or sleeping. I can't move until I finish my college so that is on hold. I should have done the military like I wanted to when I got out of high school. I regret not doing it really. But anyways, sorry, not meaning to take over your thread.

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Originally Posted by Hot Rod Surfer

Anyway, through the primer, sealer and base coats, Jon is wearing a normal air filter mask with two filters. But when he goes for the Kandy coat (UK I think) he wears a mask with an exterior air supply (Aqualung almost, but a lot newer) and hood!!!:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: !!!

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Any paint is bad to breathe. I use a complete fresh air system to paint. Been painting for 20 years and now I have asthma because the doc said I became allergic to the isocyanates in the paint . ALLERGIC to something I have to use almost every day.
Get yourself a good system or mask or SOMETHING to protect yourself- painting eihtout anything just isnt worth screwing with your lungs....


Here is video of me using the fresh airs system whic plugs an air hose into a good I wear- sort of like a sea diver...:LOL: and esy to breathe in

http://www.chop-shopcustoms.com/curr...y/toby_car.MPG