Should I let a PRO shoot the BC/CC?

Hello all. While I'm not new to this forum, I don't know if I've ever posted a new thread. You all seem very kind and helpful to one another, and for that reason, I'm moving over from another forum, because I've grown tired of the attitudes of some of the "pro's" on the "other" forum. Having said that, here are my questions:

I'm about to the prep & paint stage on my fiberglass '32 coupe, and I'm trying to decide how much of that I should do myself. Keep in mind that the last car I built was in the early '80's, so Urethane is all new for me.

When I hear about $10-$20K to have a pro do my work, my knees begin to buckle. Oh, don't get me wrong. I know you PRO'S earn every penny of it. I think I just can't psychologically accept those #'s, plus I'm just hard-headed and want to do whatever is reasonable. I do have an 18'x25' garage which is freshly insulated and dry-walled, which is very clean and has loads fluorescent lighting, and which is separate from my shop. I have a 60 gallon compressor which outs out about 14.8 CF @ 90 psi. And, I have an old siphon fed gun for primer, along with two new HVLP guns from Harbor Freight, one of which is the newer, lower pressure model. I have a new AOS Professional respirator, head socks, and body suits. I've sprayed a fair amount of lacquer and acrylic enamel in the distant past. I was considering using the shop I referred to above to spray the car in, but have been warned that this may not be the smartest thing to do, and that if I insist on painting this myself, that I should at least use a booth. I thought of using 2-3 box fans, directed outward, below the garage door to vent the fumes out, and building filters for the entry door for incoming air. I've been warned that one spark from a fan motor could spell disaster. So, I don't know what to do. Should I prep, prime and wet sand everything, and pay someone to spray it all in a booth? Given what I read about quick flash times, should I just paint it in the garage, but leave the garage door open? In any case, I plan on having the frame powder coated, so that's not an issue.

Your advice is very valuable and will be appreciated. I don't want to spend more than I have to, but I don't want to be a fool either. Thanks guys :) :confused:

i have use bc/cc for many years what i did not like about it much is with low ligth you some times have a hard time getting the paint even .but it is fast and easy to use.if it was my car i would lay it out with enamel then go over it with a urethane clear back in the 80.s i used the ppg dau 75 over dry enamels with hardeners sand with 1000 paper i still think this is the best way to go. i think you get more paint per gallon were the base for bc/cc has alot of balance clear in it . and on some colors with the added balance clear you get less then a 1/2 a can of paint

Glad to see you onboard and posting. Welcome.


I completely understand your dilema, I couldn't justify laying out $ 10- $ 20,000 for a paint job either, although I too have an appreciation of why it costs that much for a super pro job. I simply don't have that kind of money to be throwing around.

I guess the bottom line is, how good of a job do you want? It sounds like your skill level is about like mine.......you've sprayed some things, and know the basics, so you are probably capable of turning out a decent quality job. Plus, if you choose the right paint, you can correct any mistakes later on by buffing the heck out of it.

I've mentioned this before, but at a body shop where I worked, the detail girl made the paint jobs look good, because she would sand and buff them to remove dirt and messups. We had a very good downdraft booth, but even that didn't keep all the stuff out of the wet paint. I painted my Kids VW once, and everything came out nice except for one fender, it had runs and dirt. As a last ditch effort, I wet sanded it and buffed it, and it turned out better than the rest of the car.

Brings up another point, color. Some colors are just tougher than others to paint. I find translucent colors like gold and yellow tough to get evenly sprayed.

What about doing all the prep work and having a local painter or shop do the final paint for you? I have done that in the past, and tipped the guy generously when it was over because it made the job better and easier . Some shops will allow their painters to earn extra money by using their booth like on a Saturday, when they are closed. I had my Jeep painted that way, and paid the shop $ 100 for using their booth that day.

Problem with doing it at home is it makes a heck of a mess, and significant others tend to frown of the fumes and overspray. (Don't ask me about letting the clothes dryer run while you are spraying stuff........purple nurses uniforms are not cool it seems :eek: )

Good luck,

Don

So Pat, are you suggesting using an acrylic enamel (AE) with a hardener in the place of the urethane base coat? What would the advantage be of doing that? Is it cost? Itoldyouso, I hear what you're saying about the overspray, etc. I'm on 2 acres here in Prescott, and the shop/garage I mentioned is over 100 ft from the house. Any overspray would settle on the gravel around the shop. But, doing all the prep and finish sanding and buffing, and having a pro with a booth just shoot it is what I'm considering. Like I said above, I want to save as much as I can, but I'm not gonna be stupid about this. I know the fumes are dangerous, and I really need a booth. Having to transport everything (body, doors, deck lid, 4 fenders, frame horn covers, radiator shell, 4-piece hood) back and forth from a shop in town is a bit of a hassle, but if it means having a nice end-product, then that's the way I'll have to go. Too, It would make me proud to look at a finished job that I've done all myself, but if I've done lung damage, it wouldn't be worth it. Heck, I've made it thru Vietnam, and all the way to 60 in good health. Killing off any brain cells at all wouldn't leave me with much!!

I sprayed my 'glass coupe in my garage with a good BC/CC. I made up a plywood panel with two box fans mounted to it blowing outward. The air came into the garage through some furnace filters. The good deal about HVLP is that overspray is minimized.

FYI, box fans use inductive motors (no brushes), so they don't spark. The compressor is another animal. My compressor is at the front of the garage, and that is where the air inlet was. Apparently, the incoming air kept the fumes away from the motor - either that, or I was lucky.

The other problem is lighting. I had bookoo lights in the ceiling, and added a row of 2-tube fixtures on racks on either side of the car. I still had trouble seeing.

Finally, laying down a nice, smooth coat of either BC or CC isn't easy the first time out. The car in my avitar is the first one I've painted for more than 10 years, and there were some problems - not $15,000 of problems, though. :LOL:

You can expect to pay upwards of $2,000 just for materials for a decent BC/CC do-it-yourself job.

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Originally Posted by rltaylor46

So Pat, are you suggesting using an acrylic enamel (AE) with a hardener in the place of the urethane base coat? What would the advantage be of doing that? Is it cost? !

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did you read my post? alot of the bc use a balance clear that is not color paint but clear that get you see thru paint or many coats of paint some of the paint lines are nothing more then enamel with a dryer add to it clear that make it in to a bc/cc so your are not getting a gallon of soild paint .the urethane clear makes in finsh tough and in a less then perfect place to shot enamel is easer to sand out then a base . i have sprayed many paint jobs 100s of them not in a both. having a both is not a end to any problems i have seen paint jobs look no better or worse if the filters are dirty and to much PULL air speed in the both with a not so good seal on the both doors will pull much dirt thru**)

we have a local painter here, he does 10-20K amazing paint jobs in a 2 car garage. his trick is to keep the dirt down. he gets the car to its final stage ready to shoot, he lines the walls, ceiling, and floor, with clear visqueen plastic. makes a fresh bubble dirt free cell, rolls the car in, wipes the car down with a tac cloth and sprays away. with a single fan in the window to exhaust the fumes out.

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Originally Posted by mooneye777

we have a local painter here, he does 10-20K amazing paint jobs in a 2 car garage. his trick is to keep the dirt down. he gets the car to its final stage ready to shoot, he lines the walls, ceiling, and floor, with clear visqueen plastic. makes a fresh bubble dirt free cell, rolls the car in, wipes the car down with a tac cloth and sprays away. with a single fan in the window to exhaust the fumes out.

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done many this way for a very long time.jet wash the car blow dry it wash shop out walls and floor with dish soap and water. drain the air compeser i used a filter that used a roll of toilet paper for a fillter and one on the gun had one air hose i used just for painting . wipe the hose down and a clean spot on the bench on mix the paint and had i old tack rage to wipe the hose down every time i add paint to the cup of the gun and wipe clean the bottom of the spay gun i would clean out the air cap of the gun with thinner **) the shops i work at did not have a real both but just a clean room with a fan i painted car trucks and boats air planes out of rooms like this and alot of them would be 7000/10000 jobs

Check around with your friends... Should be able to find a painter with access to a booth to do the shooting for you, or rent you the booth and do it yourself. I've done bc/cc in a garage with good lighting and some extra lights mounted low using less the fed approved exhaust system. It's of course illegal to do that so I could never suggest you use that method!!!!! Friend of mine has a company that builds road and construction equipment. The paint booth is never used on evenings or weekends. The rent usually runs pizza and Diet Cokes while we're painting. Works a lot better, and definitely a lot safer. Used to have my own booth, sold the shop and wish I would have kept the spray booth!!!!!

Easy there Pat. I did read your post, as well as your last two, and at the risk of embarrassing myself, I still don't understand what you're trying to describe. Even with advanced degrees, without exposure and experience with the new paint systems, I plead ignorance. I'm trying though, so please be patient. Are you possibly describing single stage urethane? If not, PLEASE try again to get it thru my thick skull. I understand that the single stage urethanes don't produce that "mile-deep" finish, which is fine with me. I'm building a retro rod, with that 60's look. I actually like the look of the old acrylic enamels, but also understand that the urethanes are superior in terms of UV resistance, and therefore, longevity. BTW, I'm pretty sure I've decided on a red to match the Bengal Red powder coating I'll be using on the frame.

Jack, you have described the exact fan set-up I've been thinking about. Thanks for the info re the motors being inductive motors. No problem re the compressor, as mine is located in the main shop. I can, and have run hose over to this separate garage. I have a second air/water filter mounted in that second garage. What I thought I could do for intake air is to put an air filter in an open window in the rear of the garage. And, I also would mount some extra flourescent light along the walls. I wondered if visqueen might cause a static problem. Can the overspray and vapors from these urethanes actually be explosive? I've been told that by a local builder who seems to like to scare guys like me away from doing our own work.

I appreciate the advice and encouragement guys. I'm beginning to think that I should consider doing all the priming and prepping myself, and find a local painter, with a booth who can shoot the finish for me, hopefully at a reasonable price. Man, things have sure changed in the past 20+ years

one more time:) ppg has a true full urethane and polyurethe paints from color to clear. there are some paints that start with a enamels base and turn it to bc/cc . what i am saying that if you go with some paints they will add a balance clear or added dryer to the one stage paints. so if you get a gallon of bc paint you are only getting two parts color and two parts clear now make it bc/cc so if you go single stage and get one gallon of paint it has not been turn in to bc/cc you get all paint with out the balance clear MORE PAINT in the gallon can and if you go with enamel base and sand in and clear it you still have the uv of the urethane clear and you can sand your coats before you clear with the top coat if you have to sand your base it can be hard to sand and will have to be cover with more base. far as getting more depth that just Bs i have had mile deep paint with single enamels and urethane when you wheel it with bc/cc you are not working with the color just the clear so how you bc is put down is how it will look. you can not easly sand it flat. just the clear.. even if you go single stange paint sand it flat and clear it .it will look diffrent in color and more depth i have done black and red paint jobs that every one at cars shows say how much clear you got on that car ?? no clear:LOL:

If you are unsure of the urethane bc/cc paints, try buying a small amount of it first and spraying something less important like a set of wheels or the underside of the trunklid. I think you'll find it easier to work with than most acrylic enamels.;)

It is purely a matter of preference, but I think DuPont's "Chromabase" paints are the easiest to use. You simply mix equal amounts of the color and activator and spray it. It sprays about like old fashioned lacquer and dries very quickly. You can use just about any acrylic urethane clear over it. I like Five Star's high solids high build clear. It's tough, easy to use, extremely durable, and a lot less expensive than the big "name brand" clears. I also use Five Star's "Quickbase-D" activator in the Chromabase colors. It works just like the DuPont "Basemaker" but costs less than half the price.:3dSMILE:

As Pat and Don both stated, the urethanes tend to be somewhat more transparent than older enamels and lacquers, so plan on an extra coat or two. Using a color-compatible sealer before painting is a good idea to help keep the color even.:rolleyes:

I have been spraying cars with all kinds of paints in the garage at home since I was eighteen. Make sure you have appropriate ventilation and, most importantly, a good respirator...:HMMM:

There is a company out there that is now making a low VOC acrylic lacquer automotive paint. The name is Dura_-something. Can't remember the name. It would be easier than trying a base coat clear coat or single stage urethane.

The overspray from any type of paint is explosive - as is any fine particle mist. Grain mills blow up because there is too much dust in the air. That being said, if you eliminate all sources of ignition, you have no explosion - particularly if the area is well ventilated.

I think JRobinson's advice on paint is pretty much right on. I used Sherwin Williams on my '34. It works really well, but it's very expensive.

If you're going to paint in your garage, wash everything down - a couple of times, and get everything out of there except your car and your paint bench. I'm not sure I'd tape visqueen to all the walls. I've done that, and its a pain - and the visqueen attracts and holds dust. It may be easier just to repaint the garage walls when you're done.

A few years ago, I built a whole visqueen room in my garage using 2x4s for a frame. It took me days to build, and cost a lot of $$. I did just as well on my current ride by just cleaning up the garage. I may have to do a little repainting, but what the heck. Wall painting with a roller is pretty easy.

Remember, you really need to clean up the room twice. Empty your garage, clean it up, get all your priming done and everything sanded and ready for the color. Then totally clean out the garage again. Priming and blocking generates more dust than a Texas windstorm.

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Originally Posted by Corvette64

There is a company out there that is now making a low VOC acrylic lacquer automotive paint. The name is Dura_-something. Can't remember the name. It would be easier than trying a base coat clear coat or single stage urethane.

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Found the Lacquer. Finally. :CRY: It was Dupli not Dura....
http://www.duplicolor.com/index.html

I guess I'll weigh in to this fray a bit with some of the safety(Gloom and Doom:eek: ) aspects.

First - Jack - I have to take you to task about using box fans (which I also had always used before) THESE FANS ARE DANGEROUS AND NOT EXPLOSION PROOF!!! It sometimes scares me that I haven't blown myself up yet. I bought a greenhouse/ barn fan fairly inexpensively from these folks:

http://www.greenhousemegastore.com/p...umber=FA%2DVFT

The 12", $119 version plus ~$20 for shipping - and it really moves air, 1050CFM. You don't need but about half of that for a single stall garage. Consider their variable speed adjuster for another $50.

Secondly, most of the new BC/CC paints are either an isocyanate or benzol blend of nasties that can scramble your brain from a very short time to permanently. It can effect your respiratory system the same way as well. For sure all of the clear coats have Isocyanates. This means an a minimum, a charcoal canister mask, eye protection, nitrile gloves, head sock and a bunny suit. Better is a supplied air system - which I bought as I have had some respiratory reactions to these paints. Acryllics aren't quite as bad but the solvents can render you 'speechless and breathless' for a day or so if you don't use precautions like a charcoal canister mask.

As far as the paint brand, stick with what you can buy locally is the best - DuPont is my favorite, but others have good luck with PPG, NAPA's Martin Senour, RM(BASF) Kirkers and House of Kolor. I also really like Southern Polyurethanes epoxy and 2K along with their Universal high solid clear.

Equipment is another complete thread or several - big enough compressor, HVLP guns, DA sanders, sanding blocks, brands of sand paper, etc, etc, etc.

Whatever it takes it ends up cheaper then paying someone $10-$30K for a custom paint job that might be better then yours, but then might not. It is extremely time consuming just for the prep time to make the surface good enough for paint - 100 hours is not an unreasonable number for an OK car with minimal defects, more if you have dings dents and rust that have to be "cured"

most all of you two parts get set off with isocyanates primer to get setoff by this stuff . yes you need a good mask. the week end body guys. guys that paint this stuff on weekends or maybe weeks out of a the year . you are not painting for a living ..maybe you get lucky or not and get really sick from this stuff .i work with this stuff every day and to say it bad is a under statement. all the body shop i work at were less then prefect. i would walk out of the so-called both and get blasted by primers or someone or using two part paints on the floor cutting in a car or more then one thing with not much air movement. and there were times i would walk back in the both to look it the final job. did this suff for over 25 years of my life.i would leave my day job painting job and go work on other paint jobs on the side or hang out at my friends body shop with no mask on. hanging in the air paint laced with isoyanate .so i was in it all the time ,i have been sick .fast heart rate was my body telling me to get clean air then from there at gets in your lungs . i will not get in to all of it .its no fun . i have had health issue. i can not point to this but ?

I hear ya loud & clear Pat, as well as what some others are saying. That fact is, I have asthma already. So, I have to be very careful. Truth is, I don't really want to do ANY of the finish work. I'd like to just blow it apart, take it to a pro, and bring it all home, all color sanded, polished, and ready to bolt back together. But, I am 1/2 Scottish! Need I say more? I do know the owners of 3 small, local rod shops. One already told me he would want $3000.00 just to shoot everything. That's labor only, and just for shooting. That sounds a bit much to me, at least before I go talk to the other 2 guys. Maybe I can work out a deal with one of them. They're both very nice guys, and maybe I could even barter a little. I like fabricating and fitting stuff, but I get so darned anxious just thinking about this painting process. The life of a Perfectionist is hell! I'm gonna try and talk with those two other guys, maybe tomorrow or Tuesday. I'll let you know what they say.

You guys have helped me get through a tough decision, and I really appreciate your advice and assistance. You'd think as a retired Therapist I could get through this crap by myself. But one of the first things I learned in school is that, while we can do a great job of helping others, because we're not emotionally involved with their stuff, we're very often too close to our own stuff to be able to be objective. Thanks again!

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Originally Posted by rltaylor46

But, I am 1/2 Scottish! Need I say more? I do know the owners of 3 small, local rod shops. One already told me he would want $3000.00 just to shoot everything. That's labor only, and just for shooting. That sounds a bit much to me, at least before I go talk to the other 2 guys. own stuff to be able to be objective. Thanks again!

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I'm even worse then that - besides being half Irish, the other half is Scottish (and am getting ready for a 2 week trip there in about three weeks).

If you have asthma, working with this stuff will do nothing but exacerbate your symptoms. It's nasty:eek:

As far as $3000 and if it includes a final sanding then cutting and buffing, that is not too bad if it is a guaranteed in writing price. Based on a shop rate of $75 an hour, that's 40 hours. The best I could do around here is 6 to 8000 dollars and I was to give him everything ready to spray, and with no priming, sanding or bodywork. I was to provide all of the paints, activators and thinners and whatever else he needed. It went up from there. A lot!! And I have only a fendered 'A' roadster (see the AVATAR). I should be putting color on in two weeks.

That's gonna be one sweet roadster Don. What color will it be? Sure looks like you're doing a great job. The last car I built, way back in 1984, was a full fendered, '29 "A" tudor. Small block Ford (302"), maroon body w/Black fenders. Wish I kept it. But, as is so often the case, by the time I finished it, a) I was sick of it, and b) I was afraid I'd scratch it! I can sure be irrational at times!

Anyway, yeah, it may turn out that the $3K is fair. He was figuring shooting in portions (i.e. 1) fenders, then 2) deck lid and doors, then 3) 4-piece hood, frame horn covers, splash shield, and then finally, 4) body.) He figured 2 days for each portion, one day for color, and next for clear, and about 2-4 hours per day. So, let's say 8 days X 4 hours per, and that's 32 hours. That would come out to $2400.00. Just shooting the paint.. no color sanding of buffing. And, I supply all materials. I guess that would't be too bad. We'll see what these other 2 guys say.

Again, that roadster's gonna be a beauty!

Randy

well that must be wrong with me 3/4 irish that makes for one dam hard head:whacked: :D i allways wanted to do every thing my self and never had the money to pay for it .i like to learn so i did it my self. like said rltaylor 46 you do not want to play with this stuff if you have asthma this stuff could kill you.. i have had it in my lungs alot like pneumonia really bad stuff just a small shot of this stuff could be bad for you

Hey Pat, I really appreciate your wisdom and your understanding that some of us have limits. All of you guys have gently advised and nudged me in the right direction, that of having a pro shoot the color on this car. It's not easy for us ol' Scotch-Irish hard-heads to let anyone do anything we can do. I guess knowing I could do it if I had to makes it OK for me to let this one go. I have as much pride as anyone, but when my health is at stake, I'm not gonna take unnecessary chances. I'm not wealthy, but I can see that investing a few thousand $ at this point makes a lot of sense. I have the right tools & equipment, and environment to do all the prep and priming, so that's where I need to draw the line. Thanks again guys. You're kind and good to each other, and that is so cool.

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Originally Posted by rltaylor46

I'm about to the prep & paint stage on my fiberglass '32 coupe, and I'm trying to decide how much of that I should do myself. Your advice is very valuable and will be appreciated. I don't want to spend more than I have to, but I don't want to be a fool either. Thanks guys :) :confused:

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I too am here because I am tiring of the other boards LOL maybe we know each other in a past life? :LOL:

All I can say it you get what you pay for. With the cost of just the paint these days, its too darn expensive to just take the chance you may screw it up.
BC/CC on some products can be $1000 just for the product- too expensive in my eyes to just toss in the trash...

Id pay the cash for the proper job- get it done right the first time.
Dont kno w where you are located, but IN the Boston area a paint job can be at least $8000 to get a good one and $20,000 for a great one.