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I just contacted Brookville and for any of you that are doing a '28 - '32, this is the information that I got:
"THE PRIMER THAT WE USE IS WESTERN SELECT ACRYLIC PRIMER RED OXIDE RS4201, THE LACQUOR THINNER WE USE IS 5770, WE RECOMMEND YOU CLEAN OFF AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE , THE METAL HAS NOT BEEN PREPPED." :eek:
And the rest of that story is that the acrylic laquer primer is porous allowing moisture, over time, to migrate to the metal beneath. The longer the body sits the more the metal underneath rusts, rate depends on ambiant conditions.
There's more to the story . . .
I wouldn't put any kind of modern paint over that primer. Strip it and re-prime with an etching primer for adhesion.
I hadn't planned on totally stripping the body until I talked to SPI which started me asking questions. Their response was cut and pasted directly from their email to me and was my latest OH S@#*! - more unexpected work on this body.:CRY:Quote:
Originally Posted by Henry Rifle
Needless to say, my DA is warmed up, my supply of epoxy primer checked, a new bucket of 2K ready to go. And since it is supposed to rain (Earnesto's backlash), I guess walking around a fairgrounds is not going to happen and I can start making (more) dust
Two part primers are well worth the money. They build a much more stable surface, that doesn't swell from solvents, then shink later to expose imperfections and body work under the primer.
Everyone worries about the primer as a moisture barrier, but I guide coat and wet sand the 2K primer on all of my jobs, including "from bare metal" work, and in the last 15 years I've been using it, I've NEVER had rusting underneath!!! I'm confident enough to guarantee every job for as long as you own it...........and I sleep just great at night! :-)
Quote:
Originally Posted by HOTRODPAINT
Two part primers = epoxy primer?
Like DP-90?
And perhaps skip the etching primer?
Epoxy primers seem to grip really well, does the etching primer grip well and then the epoxy primer over that is the way to go?
Or would DP-90 suffice?
2K primer is anoher name for what Brookville puts down?
I was going to use lacquer thinner to wash the primer off, but if it's a job I could skip it wouldn't hurt my feelings.
My Brookville 30-31 roadster body is four years old and has been stored in the garage in low humidity climates.
Fwiw, I used a Rootlieb hood on my 32.
It came with a very smooth coat of primer on it.
I don't know what kind, but shooting acrylic lacquer over it did not create a reaction.
I sanded it down, shot on PPG acrylic lacquer - four coats if I remember right - and had a small bit of orangepeel.
I block sanded the orangepeel down with used 400 grit wet/dry, compounded and polished it and it ended up looking pretty good.
I note that you can use DP-90 as a sealer (instructions are on the can).
I think that would work well for me.
I'd prefer to have a sealer closer to the final color than a white sealer under black paint like last time.
I think the rock chips wouldn't show up so bad that way.
Any comments on using DP-90 as a sealer?
And perhaps a comment on using body filler over the top of the epoxy primer.
That was recommended by the auto paint shop where I bought the paint et al and it seems to be working well.
One more question.
My pal shot his 29 A roadster with DP-90 in a mustard-like color.
I don't know why the heck he did that - the color choice - but he did and a year later he was wondering why as well.
Anyway, he sanded that down and shot the roadster with DP-90 in a very dark almost black gray.
Looks good, but I'm wondering how much protection he has from the elements?
So far - about two years down the road for the last primer application - the car hasn't developed any rust bubbles that I can find.
An original body fwiw.
:D Guys, I didn't open this thread to debate the various ways and materials to paint a car - there are about as many ways to paint a car as there are painters. This thread is only to describe what Brookville uses and the fact that it is best removed - their words - before final paint.Quote:
Originally Posted by HOTRODPAINT
Painting debates are in other (many) threads.:HMMM:
As a note -
A. Brookville does NOT use 2K primer. Acrylic primer is NOT 2K. It is the old standard primer/thinner. It has a pot life of about as long as you can keep air away from it to induce drying.
B. 2K is a polyester base material with activator and has a pot life of a few hours to a couple of days.
C. Epoxy is a bare metal sealer and can also be used as a 2K sealer by some
Ok.
I just thought this would be a good time to ask a painter a few questions.
Jay, it's not my thread but it seems like a natural extension, so here goes.
DP 90 is epoxy primer. Just as an aside, 90 is the black one you see most. DP is also available in other colors distiguished by a number change; e.g 40 is gray-green, 48 is white, 50 is gray, 60 is blue, 74 is red oxide, all now have the suffix LF for lead free (older versions of DP had lead). PPG refers to it as rust resistant, so it probably wouldn't hold out moisture by itself long term. Also it is not UV resistant, so between those two alone it's not suitable for a topcoat.................though lots of folks use it that way.
Usually the term 2K is in reference to two part (catalysed) primer/surfacer, or sandable, high build surfacing primer. As an example in PPG there is K36, a light gray acrylic urethane product. Epoxy primers like DP don't have much film build so aren't used the same as primer/surfacers.
Etch primers are also not primer surfacers, essentially do the same function as the DP, but have phosphoric acid mixed in to etch the metal, and convert very minor surface rust. Like DP it is a mechanical bond, although there is the chemical reaction from the acid.
Another note on the DP tech sheet warns against covering a laquer primer with DP and then later top coating with any of the DP compatible products. Experience has shown high chance of lifting the substrate.
Well I am in the same boat as Irelands Child. My 1930 Brookville Model A roadster has the same primer on it. So I will be taking it down to bare metal and then begin the primer & painting process. I will be having this professionally done. I just got a new 1930 smooth cowl from Brookville which was bare metal & it is being primered the correct way. I'm still trying to decide on the two tone paint scheme. I kinda like the new 2007 Toyota blue ribbon metalic for the top color and I'll have to find a light silver for the main body & fenders. So many decisions to make & the problem is I have never done this before so I am kind of like a hog on ice.
A quick update - I'm slowly getting into removing the primer, using 80 grit on a DA or by hand. Several places there is absolutely no adhesion - it flakes off. Six inches away from that flaky spot, the primer is stuck like it never wants to come off. As a matter of interest, there was rust under the primer in a couple of spots - and it was there BEFORE the car was primed. SO, anyone who thinks that they can sucessfully paint a Brookville body w/o taking their primer off, good luck.
StylingZ - make sure the bolt holes on the cowl cover line up correctly before you paint it, mine needed some help:eek: - also, if you are going to use a 4 piece hood, you have to drill the bracket bolt holes. A 3 piece hood - no extra holes that (I'm aware of).
A tip for those who use lacquer. It is not like enamel. It depends on solvent penetration for adhesion. Always make sure it is sprayed "wet". If you shoot it dry, or over a surface that it has trouble penetrating, Like a well cured high gloss, it won't stick. I'm sure that is the problem on your body.
Hotrodpaint - if you read the first post you will see Brookville's response to me - they put primer on draw quality cold roll steel - just as it came from their presses - and oily in places. That plus the fact that the primer they use mediocre cheap crap and is totally being removed w/80 to 100 grit paper. There is no problem with the body except is is eating my retirement up many extra hour after hour. With that said, Brookville bodies are fine STEEL repro bodies, and take extensive time to repair their screw ups plus make necessary mods so an owner can run modern equipment - i.e. V8 motors with auto trans, etc, etc, etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by HOTRODPAINT
Some day I will post my essay on this body - when I finish painting it.
Caveat emptor !!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Irelands child
I'm curious as to why you're sanding the primer off?
Wouldn't it be easier to wash the primer off with lacquer thinner, then sand?
A messy job, but fairly easy from what one painter friend tells me.
C9,Quote:
Originally Posted by C9x
Several reasons -
I would probably still have to wear my supplied air hood as I am sensitized to many solvents and secondly, the crap that Brookville uses comes off extremely easily with my 17" llongboard and 80 grit paper. The primer varies a lot in thickness - my guess, .002 to .010. I did the flat area of one door to bare metal in about 5 minutes last night (doors are off and on a table). It leaves a nice finish for epoxy plus shows high and low areas - I have low areas, hinge side on both doors - the as-received hinges were bound up, flexing the door skins(bushings and new pins fixed that problem)
Thinner is fine for a single panel, but the mess plus the much added expense of even cheap lacquer thinner at ~$10/gallon, a bale of rags and the problem of disposing a hazardous waste and safety. I did try one trunk floor panel and it made a major mess with several rags and slop.
C9, I think you have an unassembled Brookville as well, based on earlier posts - check the primer out.
Quote:
Originally Posted by C9x
C9 - I responded to your post yesterday - and it didn't show up - then it appeared - sorry
Quote:
Originally Posted by Irelands child
Not a problem.
I cut out a 1 1/2" filler piece for the lower belt line at the extreme bottom of the body at the rear.
It was cut out for a parachute mount - the car was originally slated to be a dry lakes runner, but it's turning out so nice that I'm putting it on the street.
Anyway, I had some 100 grit wet/dry in my little Makita finish sander.
Took the primer - which was thin - right down to bare steel with no problem.
There are some areas that will need to be washed out with lacquer thinner, but sanding the open areas looks to be reasonably easy.
Areas that will require lacquer thinner are at the bottom of the trunk sill where it joins the belt line at the extreme bottom.
That and a clean brass brush ought to do it.
the pic above was in wanna-be lakes racer trim.
This pic shows how it looks today.
Doesn't look too much different, but there are a lot of small and time consuming projects finished on it.
Including a mid-90's ChryCo Soccer Mom two passenger van seat installed.
After the new set of fenders - actually OOS (Old Old Stock and used) get mounted and bobbed, the body comes off so I can build the frame mounted dual gas tanks and a few other things like plumbing for brakes and fuel.
Got my roll-around body dolly finished yesterday so I'm ready there.
C9 - looks good - especially on the 32 frame:D . As far as the dual frame gas tanks - where - inside the rails? Why not use the standard rear mount? Even if you bobbed the frame off, several outfits sell replacement end pieces - which I used to build a framework to put the tank in the back of my '31 chassis.Quote:
Originally Posted by C9x
I've got my '31 on a dolly now and have it stripped of doors, trunk lid, cowl cover, dash and whatever else unbolts. The chassis is DONE !!!! I had the last piece, a drive shaft loop powder coated last week and installed it. This was an after thought as I pass my gas and fuel lines over it, next to the body and just figured a few hours and a few bucks was well worth the peace of mind for the added protection. I do have a short photo gallery in this forum but needs updating.
As far as stripping the doors - the left one, not too bad but will need a complete filler skim coat - jury's still out on the right, probably will need it as well.
I've attached a photo of my dash with a pile of sanding dust of the amount of primer that Brookville puts on a component. There are a total of 8 larger gauge and A/C outlet holes that actually reduce the surface area by quite a bit. And this is only the front side, the reverse will not be sanded to bare metal The holes range in size from 2 1/16 to 3 1/8. This is representative of all pieces that I've removed the primer.
Obviously, a thinner wash wont do it at $13/gallon yesterday for gun cleaning quality Nason.
If I had any idea on how long and how much effort this paint removal was going to be, I would have driven many miles for someone to media blast this car. I have since I started, talked to a couple of local guys that do some custom painting in the area - the closest reliable media blaster guys are well over 100 miles from me.:CRY:
The flat panels have come clean of primer fairly easily, but Brookville used so much primer that the raised details were almost obliterated with up to a 32nd in. at the sharp stamped in areas. It literally has to be dug out. I've used thinner, Rolocs, and a rotary wire brush with varying degress of sucess. This crap has to be removed or it will create ugly spots in the final paint job.
It looks like I'm trading red acrylic primer for red rust - but at least the light skim of rust comes off very easily(so far) with my DA. Another day or so, ready for epoxy primer (but I said that a couple of weeks ago) and hope the good weather holds.:eek:
Irelands child, like you I am currently building a 30 Brookville roadster coated with their crappy primer. Most likely I will check into having everything removed via media blasting. I have not checked to see if there are local blasters here in Albany, OR but that has to be much faster than what you are doing. My only concern is will I run into issues with some of that media blasting material getting into places hard to get out and then appear when my paint job is being done? So I do not know if faster easier media blasting is the ticket or removing the primer the hard way? Thanks,
Yes!! Not discounting the process as an option, but you can vacuum, air blow, vacuum, air blow, etc. etc. and may not get it all. Also, not all media (meaning plastic, soda or nut shells.................as opposed to sand) blasters are equal. I tried a new guy once on high recommendation and he ruined every flat panel (had a ton o' body work to do). Also, plastic media won't remove surface rust.Quote:
Originally Posted by stylingZ
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Parmenter
[QUOTE=Irelands child, So I do not know if faster easier media blasting is the ticket or removing the primer the hard way? Thanks[QUOTE=]
Guys,
The closest responsible guy that I could find was about 150 miles one way and at that the info was only from a friend of a friend. There are a couple of local guys that will fire up their motorized blaster and hit it with Black Beauty (coal slag). One of them blasted my '57 Ford 9" in about 3 minutes - rough stuff. This is the reason that I chose to do it the hard way with a bale of 80 grit paper, a stack of DA discs and a box of Rolocs - both sandpaper and bristle plus my rotary wire brush to dig the crap out of the corners of the raised details. I bought a $15 Harbor Freight sand blaster and used it ONLY to clean the area between the firewall and the cowl side. I then sold the blaster at a swap meet last Saturday !!
This primer is so thick and very soft that it clogs the paper almost instantly though the long board 80 seemed to cut through it fairly well. The best paper that I found was Norton 3X. Any of the 3M stuff wasn't worth the premium price. As you can see, I am almost finished - one rear wheel well left after about 3 weeks of fairly steady work. I was uncomfortable using a grinder and with the potential for digging gouges in the very soft draw quality body steel.This would have caused even more work. I was also uncomfortable with using liquid paint stripper overall. Leave some in a body joint, goodby paint in that area. Lacquer thinner was suggested - I tried a small spot on the cowl in the weather stripping groove. What a mess!! Possibly a full dipped professional body strip would work, but again, none anywhere around here - the NY Capital District area
As far as sand and media drizzling out - a Bob says, dusting, vacuuming and air blasting will remove most of the material. A good overall complete epoxy primer should encapsulate almost everthing left.
Bob, I would hope that stylingZ's Brookville doesn't have any rust - there is just too much primer for anything to get through.
And yes media blasting, it can make a mess of panels - a friend had a Jag XK120 with the 50's slab sides that cost him a bundle to have fixed by a second body man.
Babbled enough - time to get sanding. It is amazing how much poor Brookville quality makes its' appearance when their primer is removed.:CRY:
Finally - everything is primered with Southern Polyurethane's epoxy except the tops of the 'glass fenders - they wont rust !!! That is real nice stuff and "only" $50/quart - I've used 2 qts so far and will use probably one more. Mix ratio is 1:1 epoxy to activator so I have used a gallon of mix so far
The low spots are now much easier to see and, unfortunately, so are the high spots. Since I can't get behind a single one of these to dolly back, the highs will just become more lows and be mudded in with Evercoat Rage starting tomorrow.:HMMM: