Organized Paint Shops?

I am wanting to get some information on how shops and body men stay organized when going into a job and having to get prices for their customer for a price list on materials, labor, etc.... Is there any sheets I can print off or anything to help me out here to make a list of ALL the materials I will need for the job, then for the prices, etc? I get so stressed out when doing this and sometimes forget little things. The job I am doing now I need to have a full price list on the materials, estimated time it will take me to do the work, etc. I was hoping one of you guys know anything on this. Also my father said on materials to add about 20% to the price of the final cost since I will be going out of my way to pick them up, having to find the prices on all of it, etc. Is this alright to do or too much? Thanks a lot for any suggestions!

Some shops mark the materials up a set amount, and they have them delivered by the store.

Most will use a system similar to this:

http://www.mitchell1.com/


Fill in your basic profile (hourly rate, shop rate, labor rate, clean up, taxes, etc) and with it's weekely online cost updates (parts etc), you have one powerful quoting tool for the body shop industry.

Bill S.

yep, it's hard to give good advice here cause there is none.. the last shop I worked at before i started my own shop was spending $1,000.00 a month on estimating systems.. lol.... but check out compest.com not a very expensive system.. it's like 180 a month.... if you email me a list of everything your looking to do i could figure out a estimate of what i'd suggest,, but i'd need some pics also

The body shop business is operated on a flat rate system. Hours are broken down into tenths of an hour. Certain operations are allowed a certain amount of time. To overhaul a pick up truck bumper may take (pay) one hour (1.0). If it's a painted bumper, it may take eight tenths of an hour to paint it (0.8).

All this is done at a localized labor rate. Currently in the Detroit area, this labor rate is $36 per flat rate hour. Paint and materials are figuired the same way. Refinish time as listed for our bumper example is how materials are figuired. The materials are multiplied typically at half the labor rate ($18 X 0.8 hours = $14.40).

Body shop estimates do not break down individual materials other than hard parts to the car. You won't see sanding disks, sand paper, or three quarts of paint. Just a line listing materials.

Labor rates used to be figuired from labor guides (see the attachment below). Now these have been replaced by computer software (my cost from Mitchell per month is $218.). Books are still available, but fewer and fewer shops are using these. The example attached below is from the '60's, so the detail used currently is considerably different.

Parts purchased by the body shop are sold to them at wholesale prices. These are resold at retail pricing. It should be noted some shops sometimes charge more than retail (price gouging). Insurance companies pay suggested retail only. This is true of OEM parts and late model aftermarket parts.

Used parts and other unusual parts are based on cost plus mark up. This mark up is usually 25%, though some shops are trying to get 30% or more. Part adjustments by the OEM's occur monthly. Some parts go up, others go down.

Sales tax for parts and labor will obviously vary by where you live. In Michigan, only parts and materials are taxed (6%), while labor is not. Most states tax both.

Some items like glass are handled on a sublet basis. When I get a price on glass, it's usually an installed price, including tax. In some cases, if I'm overhauling a door assembly, the glass is written as a part, as the body tech will be installing the glass. Other items that may be listed as sublet are wheel alignments, tires mounted and balanced and other items sent out to other shops (trim shops, alarm shops, etc.).

There are other operations that do not require a part replacement, but are not included. This can include aim headlamps, recharging air conditioning systems and disconnecting an air bag system before some parts are replaced.

Hope this helps.

EDIT: It should also be noted that deductions are made based on overlap. If you paint a fender and door, a certain amount of labor would be deducted because it will take less time to paint both together than both individually.

I'll also attach a copy of a basic estimate using the newer software. It's amazing how I can still remember the VIN from my first new car 20 years later :D . (If anyone has a CarFax account and can tell me if this car is still on the road, I'm interested in knowing... :p )

Those links are not working for me.... Mopar, I will take pics of the car and send them to you ASAP. It will be sometime next week.
Thanks guys, keep the info comming, it is helping!

my materials are included in my rates. i dont have time to crunch
numbers and count sandpaper. collision shops have someone who just does estimates because it eats up a lot of time. if your a one man show you'll lose money. pencil and winshield time does'nt pay well :)

Man I so want to comment on the Insurance crap its not funny , but will keep it to myself . :)

Its whats ruining the industry !!!!!
And some cannot figure out why all the good Tech's are leaving the business , and I am not far behind !!!

Its because we cant make any money any more times have been cut so bad its pitiful !!!

SprayTech

Spray Tech, there is no doubt the insurance industry practices unofficial price fixing. The first company I worked for, and was trained by said they had three basic rules;

1) Treat the customer fairly
2) Treat the repair shop fairly
3) Treat the insurance company fairly

I try to adhere to this practice, but I know most adjusters look at the competitive side and try to 'beat' the body shop. Our labor rates are probably the cheapest in the country. Because of this, I try to keep my materials rate as high as I can without making my customers (insurance companies) upset.

I also know that Mitchell's system doesn't include nub time so I try to include this on the estimate as well. Pathway's and ADP usually include nub time in it's paint labor. Using the old time guide as a comparison, I don't think the actual times have changed, but newer cars tend to use more or different processes.

Another issue is the training of insurance company personal in the use of the computerized programs. Training on these systems is minimal at best, and is commonly less than that. Many operations the shop is entitled to isn't included as the 'P pages' suggest they are. This usually comes from 'old guard' insurance people who don't understand the newer systems.

i dont know about the states your in but here in texas the ins co.'s cant dictate where and what. i hate them and always have. i do claims on streetrods and they either pay my estimate or come get the car. if your young and starting out the ins co will rob you of your retirement over the next 20 years. set your cost in stone and dont back down. it's your shop , run it that way. you can make it without insurance work.

Quote:

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Originally posted by shine
i dont know about the states your in but here in texas the ins co.'s cant dictate where and what. i hate them and always have. i do claims on streetrods and they either pay my estimate or come get the car. if your young and starting out the ins co will rob you of your retirement over the next 20 years. set your cost in stone and dont back down. it's your shop , run it that way. you can make it without insurance work.

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No insurance company anywhere can tell you where to take the car, period. They can suggest repair facilities. Their pro shops usually will offer a lifetime guarantee on the work and back it up with insurance company funds if need be. To a lay person, this can be a strong incentive. Personally, I know who does good work and who doesn't. If asked by customers, I put quality of work and the shops ability to cooperative ahead of discounts or insurance company preferences.

As for taking a shops estimate...let's just say that if the shop isn't reasonable, I know 10 other shops who can do just as good a job. And this includes street rods. It makes no difference to me who makes the money.

That said, I expect no one to work for free. I also don't write estimates for collectable or specialty cars at the same rate as a typical late model either. In cases where special paints or custom body work is concerned, consideration definitely needs to be given. But all a 'My way or the highway' attitude would do is make your competitor happy.

By the way FMX, those are Adobe Acrobate files in the links above. You need an Acrobate reader. You can download a free copy from Adobe

Oh alright I see. Thanks man! I will download that tonight. I guess I will take my dad's advice and just get all the materials together and add 20% on the price for me having to run around finding the materials, picking them up, etc. How is Carquest? Are their prices any good or too high? I am going to order some of my stuff from Mopar on the boards here but not everything. Any idea's?

All our Ins. co. here quit giving feather edge & prime time , block time , cut and buff time Or mix time for my mixing bank , it doesnt matter if the panel has 6-7 hours of body work on it all I get is straight refinish time , which is a crock !!!

7-9 years ago flat rate was $25.00 a labor hour , I was making $11.75 of it and was making 80-100K a year , now we are at $42.00 a labor hour , and am making $20.00 a labor paint hour & cant sniff 50K , as the Insurance Companies have flat ruined the Business !!

I have been told by several Insurance Co. estimators that I was making way to much money , since when is it their decision to say I make way to much money ??

All I have to say is the Insurance Companies have set the Auto Industry back to the road of shoddy workmanship , beings they have gotten stingy .


SprayTech

Well is that for only insurance work Spray? Insurance companies only care about money and nothing else. They don't care about your job or how your living. Screw them all.

i've been in this bez for 35 years. i quit collision work for those very reasons. i got tired of being told to buy cheaper parts or used junk that need hrs of work. i do repairs on streetrods and classics but i do not deal with insurance adjusters. i write a fair estimate for the work and thats it. call it my way or the hwy if you want but it's me doing the work and paying the bills. i do not care what the going rate is and dont intend to have someone else tell me what i should charge. most ins co's prefer maco to quality anyway. once the customer cashes the check they're on their own.
sorry swifster , i ment no offense to you but i've dealt with this stuff since the 60's and it's not getting any better.

ST,

I followed the lead of a body shop owner in Mississippi (fenderbender 8/05 edition) and put up a large sign in my office which reads:

We have found these insurance companies difficult to deal with. We do not care to negotiate repair procedure or cost with these companies as there are many other companies we do work well with""

I have Progressive, State Farm, and Allstate currently listed. Right now, when I get a rep in from one of these three companies, they take pictures and have management call us to see how they can get their names removed from the sign. All we ask is that they be fair with their estimates, suppliments, and pay on time.


Bill S.

I was just wondering if any one could tell me what their average body shop labor rate is? In ma their any where from 32-36 per hr
and 13-15 materials.

we just did an 03 Grand Prix for American Family , god what a messed up job it turned out to be , whole new front end , all after market parts , and the body man tried as he may to get the lines to line up , and he showed our boss , and he called them back to tell them they didnt fit , and was told to ream out the holes and make them fit ....LOL
I painted the after market front cover , Rt & Lt fenders, hood , and blended both doors for 9.2 hours ... you tell me thats fair ?
It used to pay around 15-18 hours , yea like I am real proud to go to work for 1/2 price , why doesnt the Ins. estimators work for 1/2 a pay check !!! see how they like it !!

Hell our Body Shop managers are Chicken S**T of the Ins. Co.'s around here , they say well its better then not having any work at all ! easy to say when your in the office with that thumb in your ass all day !

I did a Tri- stage pearl job thursday for farmers, whole front end and blend doors , a whopping 11.0 hours , used to pay 20-22 hrs.
So it was power slammed ! :-)

Then they say all shops do a piss poor job , well I say you get what you pay for 1/2 priced estimate , you get a half assed job !

Oh well before to long we will all be replaced by kids that just change parts , as they are perfecting plastic panels that are color coded , and never need painting . They havent figured how to make metallics look good , plus the longevity isnt perfected as yet either .

Spray

Quote:

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Originally posted by pbodyman
I was just wondering if any one could tell me what their average body shop labor rate is? In ma their any where from 32-36 per hr
and 13-15 materials.

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Here in Ks , we are at $42.00 a labor hour in the body shop .
Now our Dealeships mechanic dept. is at $92.00 an hour .

I have a freind thats a master tech at a GM dealership , and theirs in the mec.dept. is $87.00 for the first hour and goes up 6 bucks with every additional hour .

Spray

42 per hr thats a whole lot better then 32. Imagine asking some one to run a buiness on 32, 36 on the high side, with paint and materials at 15-17. Hope they dont mind having people that have no clue what their doing.All the people that are any good will be gone.Good collison techs and painters are hard to come by.Its too bad more techs dont go to work for ins co and change the way its all dealt with.Im sick and tired of ins adj paying to replace a fender with out any blends.

Much of what comes from the insurance company philosophy wise comes from managers who were never in the auto side of the claims business. I'd say 90% come from the side that handles bodily injury. They look at body shops like they do doctors. The problem is that doctors make 4 or 5 times that of the body man.

The problem at Progressive is that they do not train their adjusters, and they do not hire adjusters with experience. This way they don't have to pay the adjuster either. They basically hand the laptop to the poor person and send them to the shop. This isn't fair to the shop, customer or the adjuster themselves. This is why Progressive is so cheap.

I completely agree regarding materials when a shop is only getting $32 to $36 an hour. Again as l mentioned earlier, I run my materials at $20 per refinish hour instead of $16-$18 per hour. Even then, this doesn't completely cover the raw expense. Unfortunately, if the shop is in an urban area with a shop on every corner, the competition aspect does as much to keep labor rates low as the insurance company.

Aftermarket parts are an unfortunate part of the business. I'd rather not use them, but at the same time, if I didn't the insurance company would find someone who would. I only use CAPA (for what it's worth). I also keep track in my Keystone catalog of what fits and what doesn't. I don't expect shops to use junk, and if I can document what doesn't work, I can keep the insurance company people at bay.

I quit doing any work for insurance companies in '90, after being bullied by an agent. I told the customer what they tried to do, and he threatened to drop his insurance and sue them. They backed off.

The only way I will do the work, is if I painted the vehicle originally, and if the customer deals with the insurance agent. I won't negociate the price (which is always reasonable anyway), and if they try to twist my arm, I'm outta there!

Spraytech.... I got an idea. Quit your job and move out here or I move there and lets start our OWN shop. You teach me, I work for you, make our own prices, no insurance crap... Heh. Sound good? hahaha. Yeah I don't plan on working for a dealership, I want to start out working for an independent shop and start my own doing custom work and just jobs like I am doing now. Heck if people keep referring others to me like they are doing now I may not have to work for noone else! :D That would be a dream.

NJ rates are $65/hr right now. Although, for general walk in business, we quote $40/hr.

Quote:

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Originally posted by pbodyman
I was just wondering if any one could tell me what their average body shop labor rate is? In ma their any where from 32-36 per hr
and 13-15 materials.

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Spray,

It's a matter of mamangement, if your shop owner is not willing to take a chance and push back, then you get stuck in that "this shop will fix it for XXX, why can't you" game that the insurance companies like to play. I've gone as far as contacting the owner of the car and telling them that their carrier wants us to do substandard repairs on their car......A phone call from them to the insurance company usually gets us a better supplement check. However, if we ever have sub standard parts that do not fit properly, we'll pull the job off the line and insist that the estimator come back out, as we are going to need "another" supplement from them to cover the extra work of making the parts fit. Estimators hate to drive back out to write supplement s, at least here in NJ.

Bill S.

PS: Just did an 05 Maxima in Tri stage pearl, rt 3/4 nose, when the estimator came and gave us his original write up, he said "just paint the hood and the fender, then blend into the bumper but not the doors"...A quick call to his supervisor got us the extra material and blend time.........God how I love newbies.....

Hey Thanks for the answer's. We do charge 40 per hr in the door and i can get some ins companys to up tp 38 but thats it and thats only as much as frame time.We also get paid by the mitchell p/m guide witch is most of the time twice what they paid in the first place.Its funny that they whant to save money but every job has a supplement.I Also only use capa parts if they insits but if has to fit decent and the car should be an older car.Here in ma there is no state farm, progressive allstate or the like.One major ins company.your laws arent like any other state which sucks because i think its more based for the ins company.At least most adj no that there rates are unreasonable and try to help out if they can.I've only kicked one adj out in 4 yrs running a shop.They rest are ok if there not staff apprisers.

I don't get that many supplements. I think if you get it right the first time...

For the shops I don't trust, I don't authorize anything by phone. I reinspect everything. If you have time to screw the the adjuster needlessly, you don't have enough work. And after screwing with the adjuster, you end up with less.

When I go to look at cars at someones home, I always get asked where they should take their car to. While I don't say, "Take your car here ", I'll give them the name of three shops in the area that does good work and that I trust. Shops that play games get nothing.

When shops play games and they involve the customers, I do what I can to direct business away from those shops. While I can't deny the customer the ability to take there car to a certain shop, I let them know there may be problems.

If the shop wants $38-$40 an hour and the local labor rate is $36, I advise the customer they will be responsible for the cost difference. After this, the shop will either back down, or the car gets moved to another shop.

Anytime a shop mentions doing substandard work, or whines about not getting paid enough, the car usually gets moved to another shop that's happy for the work. I usually mention that any shop willing to use those types of words most likely delivers that kind of product.

Aftermarket and used parts are spelled out in the customers policy. As mentioned earlier, if the aftermarket parts don't fit well, I personally don't write for them. But what's the excuse on a use part other than the mark up is smaller? And if the part is on the adjusters estimate, he/she has already done the hard part.

I begrudge no shop from trying to make money, but I don't have to over pay either. I don't owe a shop anything. They'll either be agreeable or they won't. I don't ask a shop to work for free, and I try to be fair and reasonable.

And Bill, if you're getting $65 an hour, I gurantee that how the estimate is written is different than an area getting $32-$36. How a job is figuired and sold will not be the same. Areas with lower labor rates are most likely having the labor time 'doubled'.

Doubled? Yep. If I tightly figuire the time it takes to rough, bump and finish a panel (I'll say 2.5 Hrs), that repair time will most likely show up as 2.5 in your shop. Here in Detroit it will show up as 5.0. In areas like St. Louis with labor rates in the low to mid $40's, this may be 3.5 or 4.0 hours. All areas are not created equal. Now this may not effect listed replacement time or refinish time, it may effect the 'extras' you get and at what rate.

not sure as this really applies to your specific question:

If you are really looking to cut costs and time ( going to the paint store ) you might want to consider what my brother in law did at his shop.

He got a paint store! no really... he has this shelf unit with probably a hundred quarts of paint, with an automatic stir system. Then, he has the microfiche system ( or whatever it is ) which matches up the color to the exact recipe to recreate it with that companies brand paints. And I guess he has the machine which does the blending.

He seems happy with it. Once a month ( or more often if needed ) the paint rep comes by and inventories, and resupplies.

Also... It doesn't really take up that much space.

I wish I could do that firebird77clone. Only problem is I don't have a bunch of jobs lined up, no store or shop, etc so the paint would sit there for a long time haha. Anyways, I looked at that car I have to do today and man it will be a lot of rust repair and bondo work. They got bondo all over it like in HUGE clumps like they got their hand in the bucket and just slapped it on with their hand it's crazy. Would something like 25 bucks an hour sound ok and then plus materials? This thing has rust on rocker panels, will need a little welding, some cutting of metal but not a ton and then lots of sanding and dent fixing....
What would you think? I can try and get these pictures up here this week if I get some time.

I got my own system and it cost me 4k so it's not the best idea for a newbie.