Painting sequence???

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10-01-2005, 09:39 PM
deferr100001

Painting sequence???

Alright I've been reading a lot from you guys and I think I have the sequence right but I'd like to make sure.

-Strip old paint
-clean with wax and grease remover
-DPLF epoxy primer
-Scuff sand primer
-Skim with bondo
-flatten bondo using guide coat
-more epoxy primer once flat
-another guide coat sanding
-color coat
-clear coat

Also I will be doing the painting in a homeade paint booth in the back of the factory I work in. I'm thinking of bulding it out of 2x4's and heavy plastic. Then duct tape the seams of the plastic and install an exaust fan in one end and furnace filters in the other end. the room can then be positioned so the exaust fan is pointed out the door. Will this work? Is there a better filter that will filter finer dust than a furnace filter?
10-02-2005, 07:46 AM
HOTRODPAINT

The sequence will depend on who you ask. On this list you will get a wide range of methods, so I guess I would tell you to pick one source for your info. That way you won't be trying to combine steps or materials that don't work together.

Two things scare me on your list:

Before I prime, I always treat with metal prep to stop any microscopic rusting that may have already started. The only acceptable alternative for me would be "self-etching" primer. This way you absolutely know that a year from now you won't see any rusting causing bubbled paint.

Also, I would never use bondo over anything but bare metal, unless the manufacturer advises that it's okay. The only thing I will personally use on top of paint is a two-part glaze that is designed for that purpose. You also use it after you've sanded the primer, to correct imperfections, but you'll have to seal those areas before paint.

I would add one more stage to the end of you list:

After your paint has dried, plan on sanding with very fine paper, then buffing. Unless it's a "rat bike", you probably won't get the kind of finish you really want, without doing this.

When you encounter problems...and you will.....just decide how to correct it, keep going, and learn from your mistakes. Each job will get a little better. I've been painting for 40 years, and I still have occasional problems, and still learn new things.
10-02-2005, 08:16 AM
SBC

Quote:

Originally posted by HOTRODPAINT
Before I prime, I always treat with metal prep to stop any microscopic rusting that may have already started.

Also, I would never use bondo over anything but bare metal,

Is phosphoric acid a suitable metal prep?
POR 15 - better?
What other products would you suggest?

I've read both methods with bondo - bare metal - and over primer only.

But then - you opened with "You will hear many opinions"

40 years certainly carries some credible experience!!!!!

Bert
10-02-2005, 09:35 AM
deferr100001

Is there anyone who uses bondo over epoxy primer. I thought that the expoxy primer had more adhesion to the metal than bondo, and also sealed the metal to prevent corrosion. Then skimming with bondo gave a perfectly flat surface. You guys think I should bondo my weld areas and then prime over the top of that???
10-02-2005, 09:37 AM
deferr100001

What about spraytech what does he recommend bondo on top of epoxy primer or on top of bare metal?
10-02-2005, 09:54 AM
HOTRODPAINT

SBC, As far as I know, all metal preps include phosphoric acid, as that is what converts rust from iron oxide, to iron phosphate. They also have a residual coating, which will protect the metal temporarily, until you can get some primer on it.

I can't tell you much about epoxy primers. I don't use them because I've used urethane primer for the last 15 years. It's never failed on hundreds of jobs, so I'm not about to change.

Deferr, In the "olden days" bondo had a bad rep. Some of this resulted from people using it over paint, and having it fail. I use it over heavily ground metal only, go right to primer, and touch up with two-part glaze. The result is zero failures.

Today there may be resins used in fillers that bond suitably to sanded paint, but you would have to consult the manufacturers before I would recommend taking a chance on it.
10-02-2005, 12:33 PM
SprayTech

deferr,

PPG recommends using their body filler over their DPLF epoxy primer. Then using a 2K primer over the worked areas with either their K-36 , or NCP 271 Primer fillers .
Other products have a different ways of going about it with their products .
What ever system you use find the the recommendations for their use .
Get the product information sheets on the products you area using , it has alot info on those sheets . Like mix ratios, pot life , temp ranges , clean up , and safety ....ect.

And if you go this route you need to use the full PPG line of products , as mixing and matching products is a NO NO , even though alot are successful with using this method .

SprayTech
10-02-2005, 02:46 PM
deferr100001

I just decided to go with blitz black. Which primers and body filler should I use for this?
10-02-2005, 02:50 PM
SprayTech

sorry I cant be of any help on this , as I only use PPG products strictly .

Maybe someone else will have some answers .

Spray
10-03-2005, 06:41 AM
deferr100001

Ok so upon further research I think that bc/cc black with flattener in the clear coat is the way to go. Spraytech I'm now planning on using PPG's products but I'm not sure if they're in my buget. anyone know how much the materials would be to paint a sedan in bc/cc ppg products. I was hoping less than 500??? somebody let me know

Blitz Black looks good but everyone's argument was just that it was cheaper. If I spend hours and hours sanding and welding on my car I'm not taking a chance to save a few bucks.
10-03-2005, 08:34 AM
m falconstien

I have had alot of success with two products that are very affordable. Both have very good UV resistance and look great for a very long time. Omni has a single stage urethane and so does Martin Senior from NAPA. A lot of different opinions out there but, I have many years experience in using a wide variety of products.
The flattened clear coat process I read about hear seams to be a waste of good materials. Flattener directly effects the UV resistance of all paints, so why waste good clear coat when a single stage paint will give you the same protection with less materials and less steps in the refinishing process.
10-03-2005, 08:50 AM
deferr100001

that's very good to know.

Would either paint give me the half-gloss look I'm going for? Maybe still add flattener??

Also I'd really like to use epoxy primer on bare metal then scuff sand, skim with bondo (doing lots of good body work just need to clean up welds), then start with the products you recommend?

Please tell me more! I'd love to use a single stage if it would give adequate protection.
10-03-2005, 09:18 AM
m falconstien

You want a Satin finish not flat black. This can be ajusted by adding a little more catalyst, and doing a test panel to see if the gloss is right. Not too much extra catalyst. What ever primer surfacer or sealer you use will depend on the amount of bodywork you do. After mud work I like to use a good quality 2K surfacer and followed with Epoxy primer. Wet sand with 400 grit for great adhesion (only with satin colors) followed with sealer and paint. I did my neighbors ford wagon 3 years ago and it still looks good ,he never puts it in the garage,and drives it nearly every day. I used Martin Senior on it. All I can say is it worked for me it can work for you.
10-03-2005, 09:39 AM
Bob Parmenter

Just to toss a little more info in here............
It might help to understand that when people talk about primers they're not always talking about the same thing. As HRP said, you'll get different answers from different folks because they bring different experiences to the table.

As an example from DW's (spraytech) list, there are two primer catagories; the DP which is an epoxy primer/sealer, and the acrylic urethanes K or NCP which are primer/surfacer (but can also be used as a wet on wet sealer with proper procedure). In simplified terms the epoxy primers adhere chemically, the acrylics mechanically (the roughened surface HRP noted). Many believe, and have sucessfully shown, that the chemical bond of the epoxy is "better" than the mechanical bond of the body filler on bare metal. Years of experience doing it the other way successfully would be an adequate argument against that. What the epoxy primer does do effectively though is act as another barrier against moisture migration as body filler is very porous, like a sponge. If you seal it off with primer quickly, that's not much of an issue, but if you let it sit, and there's no barrier between the bare metal and the body filler, then rust will occur under the filler. Atmospheric conditions will dictate how much, how quickly. If you've ever taken off old body work done over bare metal you've likely found surface rust.

As DW said, ppg will allow the use of body filler over the DP products.

As for your top coat, if you're going with ppg you could use DCC black with some flattener. You control the amount of flattener you add, thus the amount of sheen you get. Given the cost of clears a single stage like DCC would be more cost effective.
10-03-2005, 10:15 AM
deferr100001

ok so here's how I see it from you guy's info.

-strip metal
-epoxy primer
-skim bondo
-epoxy primer
-single stage DCC w/flattener

also how much is ...
epoxy primer?
DCC?
flattener?

I know clear can go for 200-300 a gallon. I just did not feel comfortable as this will be my first paint job, and I want the satin finish with lots of chrome look. I'm doing a custom 68 mercedes sedan. chopped top + american V8 + satin black + lots of chrome = SWEET!
10-03-2005, 10:36 AM
m falconstien

I was merely trying to direct you in a direction that would give you a good finish with the most cost effective results. I didn't want to overwelm you with terms that you may not understand. I could tell from your other posts that you were a novice. Everyone needs to start somewhere, but not everyone needs to be disappointed and broke at the same time . I'm confident that I know what products work well with novice painters. I'm in the industrial painting industry now after 25years of self employed autobody and refinishing. I am privledged to have many types of coatings at my disposal. PPG makes many fine products, but are not the only quality product available.
10-03-2005, 11:05 AM
deferr100001

john deere blitz black is an enamel. How does this compare with the other single stage paints you described?

does my sequence look alright?
10-03-2005, 11:33 AM
m falconstien

I did answer you but, I started a new thread. I guess I should stop trying to do more than one thing at a time
10-03-2005, 12:21 PM
deferr100001

Ok so...?

epoxy primer
scuff
bondo
urethane primer
DCC

I'm sorry if I keep asking the same question but i need a straight ahead answer before I start.
10-04-2005, 03:38 AM
m falconstien

I think you are to caught up on what sequence you should follow. Strip if needed
fabricate
epoxy
bodywork
2K or whatever
seal
paint
I would just do one at a time, this is going to take a good bit of time. Think each over before you start.
10-04-2005, 08:27 AM
deferr100001

ok that makes sense. Thanks I will keep you guys posted!
10-04-2005, 10:20 AM
FMXhellraiser

Quote:

Originally posted by HOTRODPAINT
The sequence will depend on who you ask. On this list you will get a wide range of methods, so I guess I would tell you to pick one source for your info. That way you won't be trying to combine steps or materials that don't work together.

Two things scare me on your list:

Before I prime, I always treat with metal prep to stop any microscopic rusting that may have already started. The only acceptable alternative for me would be "self-etching" primer. This way you absolutely know that a year from now you won't see any rusting causing bubbled paint.

Also, I would never use bondo over anything but bare metal, unless the manufacturer advises that it's okay. The only thing I will personally use on top of paint is a two-part glaze that is designed for that purpose. You also use it after you've sanded the primer, to correct imperfections, but you'll have to seal those areas before paint.

I would add one more stage to the end of you list:

After your paint has dried, plan on sanding with very fine paper, then buffing. Unless it's a "rat bike", you probably won't get the kind of finish you really want, without doing this.

When you encounter problems...and you will.....just decide how to correct it, keep going, and learn from your mistakes. Each job will get a little better. I've been painting for 40 years, and I still have occasional problems, and still learn new things.

There is a guy on hotrodders.com that keeps asking the steps like this on the John Deere paint and guys told him to bondo over the primer. I said no that I always was taught over bare metal is the best. Of course they keep insisting that I am wrong (even though they didn't point blank say I was wrong) and said over primer. I say screw the other step and go bondo first. Reason why people prime and THEN bondo is if they strip the whole car and to help eliminate rust because if you strip to bare metal you wont get all the bondo work done in time and it will just rust the next day. See what I mean? Also be careful with a non sealed fan and lights or else you will have an explosion. You should be fine since many people have done this including me and haven't had a problem YET.
10-04-2005, 11:36 AM
deferr100001

EXACTLY!!!!!! I KNOW that metal rusts that quickly AND bondo does not seal the metal. I may not get to spraying the bondoed repair for a week. I did not feel comfortable so was asking around if there were other ways to do it. PPG DOES suggest bondo over top of their epoxy primer to resist corrosion. I've been asking both places to get lots of opinions. You don't have to get defensive when all a newcomer to the art is trying to do is get all the info. he can.

btw maybe there is a chance that since (Quote from you) "they keep insisting that I am wrong (even though they didn't point blank say I was wrong) and said over primer." that maybe there's more than one way to do it, and for a guy who can't spend 12 hours at a time in the shop. epoxy primer THEN bondo would be a better option.

Oh and if the manufacturer of PPG, that is THE CHEMIST that DESIGNED PPG's paints, recommends their filler over epoxy primer then who would know better than the man who INVENTED IT!!!!
10-04-2005, 11:49 AM
FMXhellraiser

Woooow wow wow Deferr calm down man. I didn't mean nothing harsh by what I said at all. I guess after going back and reading it that it sounded that way but I didn't mean that. I was just saying. Yeah PPG is right, you can do it but I was always taught that if you can put it to bare metal then it's better to do that. Go ahead and use the PPG it will work and be fine. I usually would be pissed right now and stop helping you but now that I see that you misunderstood the tone that I was trying to make I wont. It is neither of our faults.
10-04-2005, 11:52 AM
m falconstien

To put this to rest, epoxy primer first has been a standard restoration process for years. Not all filler will adhere to epoxy primer.Check the web site of your favorite filler for the info. I like a filler made by USG called Clear Coat, Marson makes Gold Bond, USG makes Rage and Tack Free they stick. Do your homework before you buy.
10-04-2005, 11:57 AM
deferr100001

Quote:

Originally posted by FMXhellraiser
Woooow wow wow Deferr calm down man. I didn't mean nothing harsh by what I said at all. I guess after going back and reading it that it sounded that way but I didn't mean that. I was just saying. Yeah PPG is right, you can do it but I was always taught that if you can put it to bare metal then it's better to do that. Go ahead and use the PPG it will work and be fine. I usually would be pissed right now and stop helping you but now that I see that you misunderstood the tone that I was trying to make I wont. It is neither of our faults.

no problem. no problem. I did think that you were starting to get on me a little but it's cool just a misunderstanding.
10-04-2005, 12:06 PM
FMXhellraiser

Quote:

Originally posted by deferr100001
no problem. no problem. I did think that you were starting to get on me a little but it's cool just a misunderstanding.

Heh no problem. I didn't make it sound like it should have so I made it like I didn't care and just wanted to get to the point. I was in a hurry to move my truck so typed it out real fast. Rage filler is good though. I used Evercoat Light Weight stuff, it was pretty good and cheaper than the Rage. I am sure PPG will know the best to use with that application your using. Are you going with BB or semi gloss from John Deere since I just saw that you are using it.
10-04-2005, 12:22 PM
deferr100001

I THINK blitz black but I'm not real clear on what the semigloss looks like in contrast to the blitz black. Do you know of any examples or pics online I could look at???
10-04-2005, 12:29 PM
FMXhellraiser

No I actually don't. The thing about Blitz Black though is that it will fade. It fades and also it's a semi gloss too. The Semi Gloss is probably a better choice IMO if you want a flat look and when it fades it wont look as bad. They have high gloss as well which I will be buying and using on all the frames for my 66, 85 and 48. I will be buying some paint for my golf cart soon to paint and I think I will try the semi gloss. If so then I will give you some pictures of it.
10-05-2005, 06:22 AM
deferr100001

Hey I found this pic last night. This is the finish look I want to got for. Oh and with the picture the guy said he had finished the car in blitz black.

What do you mean by "fade" blotchy or just universally duller??
10-05-2005, 06:31 AM
deferr100001

1 Attachment(s)

oops here's the pic
10-05-2005, 12:03 PM
FMXhellraiser

Yeah see thing I like about it is that it's semi gloss. I don't like the complete flat look. But when I say fade I hear that it does both. I hear it all fades and then some spots more than others like the hood and roof do. If you keep it parked in the garage and out of the rain then I don't see you having a problem. The stuff is really strong but just fades that's all. That is the ONLY thing keeping me from using it now. I was going to use the BB or semi gloss and paint the truck and then tape out flames and do gloss black flames over it but then heard about the fading and decided not to. I hear the high gloss fades to. Also another thing to think about. If you go cheap on paint then it doesn't last long. That paint probably will last about 3 years and then will start looking like crap. That is why people on here like HOTRODPAINT and SprayTech say to go with expensive paint and it will last about 5 years or more. So it all depends. But then again you can just scuff that paint up when it looks bad and do another coat over it too.
Did you check out the 55 Chevy on Hotrodders.com? It is awsome, looks good with all the chrome wheels, grill, bumpers and the chrome trim down the side.
10-05-2005, 12:57 PM
deferr100001

yes his car is definitely sweet. Ok well I will be only driving the car in the summers and even when parked at home outside it'll be in the shade. When it's parked for long it will be inside at work with a cover most likely. I think I will go with either blitz or medium gloss. I'll buy a little of both and practice both on an old camaro hood I got from a guy at work then decide. thanks a lot!
10-05-2005, 01:09 PM
FMXhellraiser

No problem. Let me know how that medium gloss looks if you decide to do that. I want to see how much of a difference it is.