Wrinkling Base coat

Hi People my Appologies I am not a Hotroder but a Ford Prober I was wondering if you spray painting experts could help me with a very annoying Paint problem heres the story-

1 rubbed down my roof keying the original factory laquer then recoated in base coat then non poisionus 2-pac laquer about 6 weeks ago the roof came up very nice.

2.had to tape over my sunroof opening with a black bag 2 weeks later to remove and clean the paint from my sunroof frame, When removing the masking tape the laquer lifted with it a strip about 1inch wide by 1.5 inches long

3. read up on spot repairing on Internet and attempted to repair damaged section without rubbing down whole roof and respraying the whole lot again.

4.flatened down the damaged bit with various grades of paper then sprayed some base coat onto it, The edge around the repair which was feathered out began to wrinkle just the edge .

5. allowed it to dry then rubbed down again being very fussy this time with prep work and cleaning the area with panel wipe. tryed again same ***** happened.

6. rubbed down again and sprayed some of my non poisinuss laquer over the repair to seal it in.

7. 24 hours later gently rubbed the laquer flat with 1200 grade and cleaned the area, Sprayed some base coat over repair then 2-3 coats later the new laquered edge around repair began to wrinkle the old edge on original repair beneath was fine

What the hell is going on I give the base coat time to surface dry 10-15 mins between coats in a very warm dry workshop, What I cant understand is I have spot repaired other smaller blemishes which were paint scratches bellow laquer on other parts of roof without this wrinkling problem. Bearing in mind they were spot repaired over laquer without multiple paint edges tapered out. Is it something to do with having rubbed down through 4 differnet layers of paint on the roof which is exposing 2 differnt 2-pac and base coat finishes

I am getting very ****** of now this car has been a knightmare with everything I have done to it going tits up at some point or another, I have resprayed my fiesta's with body kits in the past using good old celluloiuse with no problems what so ever I wish she was a gloss colour and not this mettalic carry on.
_________________

Quote:

---

[i] I have resprayed my fiesta's with body kits in the past using good old celluloiuse with no problems what so ever I wish she was a gloss colour and not this mettalic carry on.
_________________ [/B]

---

Id forget about the probe and drive the Fiesta, with todays gas prices, that car is a godsend. Only reason I chimed in as I know a guy who has a fiesta, they are very scarce and rare in the US, but I wish I had one right about now, it cost me the same to drive a day in my car as he spend in a week in gas!

Wrinkling is caused by your solvents penetrating into sensitive paint, causing it to swell. The thinner it is, the worse it is, such as sanded featheredges. You will need to put something over it to seal it away from the new paint's solvents. I sometimes use a fast drying primer sealer, or waterbase primer for these situations. Good luck.

Thanks for the reply guys unfortuanettly I dont have my Ford Fiesta anymore should have kept it:( , I will attemt to seal the dammaged are prior to base coating and Laquering.

dody,

Heres my thoughts :

1 rubbed down my roof keying the original factory laquer then recoated in base coat then non poisionus 2-pac laquer about 6 weeks ago the roof came up very nice.

For one , manufacturers do not use lacquer anymore .

2.had to tape over my sunroof opening with a black bag 2 weeks later to remove and clean the paint from my sunroof frame, When removing the masking tape the laquer lifted with it a strip about 1inch wide by 1.5 inches long

Usually when paint peals when the tape is pulled is because of Improper sanding of the panels around tight edges .

3. read up on spot repairing on Internet and attempted to repair damaged section without rubbing down whole roof and respraying the whole lot again. ?
Are you just rubbing the surface with compound ? or using 400-600 wet to prep the roof ? This insure BITE of the new paint from pealing .
?
4.flatened down the damaged bit with various grades of paper then sprayed some base coat onto it, The edge around the repair which was feathered out began to wrinkle just the edge .
What type base and product are you using ? are the base and clear compatible ???

5. allowed it to dry then rubbed down again being very fussy this time with prep work and cleaning the area with panel wipe. tryed again same ***** happened. ?

Like HRP said , its the reducer/thinner that is attacking the feathered paint edge . Try sealing off the edge wit h a compatible sealer, or try cutting down on the material sprayed over the edge , very light coats MAY help in stopping the lifting .?

6. rubbed down again and sprayed some of my non poisinuss laquer over the repair to seal it in.

Lacquer is HIGHLY poisonous , the highest VOC content of all paints , its why it is being fazed out !??

7. 24 hours later gently rubbed the laquer flat with 1200 grade and cleaned the area, Sprayed some base coat over repair then 2-3 coats later the new laquered edge around repair began to wrinkle the old edge on original repair beneath was fine

The base coat your spraying should be compatible with itself and NO lifting should occur , unless its been clear coated with a different type product , then if you going back over the clear with the base , this is why your having lift problems . The base is attacking the clear edge .
I need to know more about the products you are using to have a better understanding of WHY your having lifting problems .
Lacquer will never lift itself , its usually what is under the repair or , an Un-Compatiable product over the top of it , and trying to spray lacquer over this , and breaking this surface , allowing the penetration of the thinners to attack the feather edge !
Hope this may shed some light on the subject .

SprayTech

One other note on lacquer, which I used for 35 years. If lacquer is shot too dry, it does not get good solvent penetration, which is absolutely necessary for lacquer to stick! (BTW, it still won't stick like the enamel does!)

Yes lacquer gets its adhesion from the solvent penetration , but if hes having a lifting problem , sealer isnt always the answer either , Its why I asked what products he is using , hard to solve a problem if you dont know all the facts .
If he is using incompatiable products , he will never solve his lifting problem !


Lacquer is what is called " ThermalPlastic " material : it will Re-flow when exposed to heat or thinner .

Catylized Paints/ Clears are " ThermalSet " which when dried "will not" reflow to heat or thinners.

SprayTech

The only reason I mentioned the lacquer is because he's using it, and already having adhesion problems, and at the same time he is being told to shoot dry coats. I felt it was worth mentioning.

He could also possibly be have those adhesion problems because some paint resins just won't bond, without help, like urethane on top of lacquer.

Thanks for the continuing info guys:) To clear up any confusion I am using a Non Isocyante two pack clear laquer on top of a base pearl coat, here's the link to the products I order----
Auto-Paint.co.uk
Spray Tech you mentioned that Laquer is being fazed out what are body shops using instead?
What would you recommend spraying my car with instead of what I am using?
When Roof was clear coated the temperature wasn't Brilliant out side so this may have caused the compromised adhesion when masking tape lifted the section away, I am a begginer and learning as I go along, Your knoweledge and advice is appreciated.

dody,
most all shops have turned to using BC/CC = Base Coat / Clear Coat systems.
They are Acrylic Uerathane Base Coat systems and require the use of a HVLP or LVLP paint guns . initals stand for :
High Volume Low Presure or Low Pressure Low Volume .
These guns have excellent paint transfer meaning more goes on the vehicle then in the air and use less paint .UNlike spraying lacquer because this product requiers a high air pressuer to spary , more paint goes in the air then on the car , or over spray , which in turn it causes a high VOC content level ( VOC = Volatile Organic Compounds = the over spary they create is what is killing the Ozone )
.
The base is very fast covering 3 coats is all the vehicle needs , and the clears today are called High Solids , require 2 coats as they are very thick mixed for spraying .
Never spray with out using the correct spray masks !!!!!!!
They are easy to spray and repair , excellent chemical resistance after 30-90 days of full cure time .
These clears are easy to buff , even though they have excellent gloss right out of the gun .
The BC/CC has excellent color hold out from sun fade as they are chemically formulated with UV protection .
Try doing a google search on PPG , Dupont , Sherwin Williams, Spies Hecker, Sikkins, galserut BC CC systems to get a better idea.
The Sikkins and Glaseurt are From your part of the world .
These products are easy to use and learn , but expensive is the draw back as they all have their own required Primer Surfacers , and Primer Sealers. Usually no lift cycle on these products when repairs are needed.
I had this all typed out once and it didnt post as I got logged out because I took to long in posting , as I was playing Ball with my dog .....LOL

Hope this give some insight on todays painters products used today .

SprayTech

Dody, Over here lacquers have been disappearing for 10 years. They are now illegal in California, and usually the entire nation eventually follows their environmental policies.

I don't believe any companies offer new car colors in lacquer, and they don't even bother to develop formulas any more. In Tucson, Arizona, (population nearing a million), none of the shops carry lacquer except in clear, black, and white.

I used lacquer for about 38 years. I finally made the switch to a total urethane system, and gave away over 300 cans of lacquer that I had accumulated. It was just getting too hard to switch back and forth.

I don't see anything on the horizon that will interfere with urethanes being the standard of the industry. You might as well learn how to use them.

Thanks again guys for the insight Anybody checked the web link to supplier on my post above to see if it is old technology laquer that I am using, Its the auto safe type I order, I guess it must be because it is listed on the web site as laquer and not clear coat. Is my base coat acrylic? it comes with special thinners That Has a very sweet smell as apose to celluloiuse thinners Not as strong smelling either. I succesfully colour coded my sunroof pannel and my scuttle panel below windscreen using my base laquer combo and they have both come up very shinny and especially after flatting down to a mirror finish using 1200 and soapy water then compounding and polishing :D

dody ,
I looked at the site you posted and it all says lacquers ( but maybe Europeans call lacquer , what we Americans call Acrylic Urethanes ? ) , because I have never heard of an Activated Lacquer .
It may be something you need to look into , do you have a local Automotive Paint Jobber in your town you can ask this question to ? As I would even like to know the answer myself .

SprayTech

I phoned the paint supplier today and he informed me that the Non-Isocyanate Laquer Is an Acrylic based product as you said I think it is what we refer to as being laquer, the product is fairly new to the market, He also informed that the Base coat I am using is a polyester type, I asked him about the problems I am having and he informed me that Clear coating to quickly can cause solvents to be sealed into the base coat bellow, I must admit my original Clear coating went on just 20m mins after final base coat was layed down, I probablly am rushing the work to a degree and not letting the surfaces cure to specified time scale, I am a busy man with a toddler to attend to so I try and do as much to my car as I can fit in a shorter period of time:( anyway, I fluffed in some primer 2 days ago and then sealed the section in with my clear coat. The primer still wrinkled at he edges but I carefully rubbed down before clear coating, The plan now is to leave the clear coat for 2 days and then mist coat my base on top of it, The rest of the roof's clear coat has been compounded and keyed with ultra fine grey scotch bright pad. I will allow my repaired section 2-3 hours to dry then do 3-4 coats of Clear over the whole roof.

Give the first coat of clear a little extra dry time. That helps.

dody,
It sounds like an old system coming back to life , and it isnt a good one .
A lacquer base under any type of urethane is a NON -repairable system. As lacquer is alot harsher and penetrates a urethane product , therefore lifting occurs.
Plus the Urethanes dont Bite real hard to a lacquer surface as it isnt formulated for it . ( I know all you old timers did it for years with no ill effects ).

Its why all the GM , Ford peelers , Chrysler 's of the 1990's , as they were trying to develop a fast BC/CC system and it was a lacquer type base , and it failed miserably !
Now its all compatible Acrylic Urethane systems .

I hated back in the day when a so called painter shot a complete with Lacquer , and then put Acrylic Enamel clear over the top , what a friggin' mess ! It looked good till the next painter had to spot repair it later due to a collision. It was due to a buddy doing a cheap complete job , then never took it back for the repairs , because insurance was paying the bill this time .

Remember lacquer does not like anything but itself .

SprayTech

SprayTech, The way we got the urethane to stick to lacquer was to use one, of two products, formulated to go on lacquer.

When they reformulated R-M's RV86 Clear, for VOCs, it would "blush" real easy, I had to redo an '81 Vette for this reason. (I've still got some if you want it) :-)~

After that I used Dupont 222S adhesion promotor. I forgot it once, and one of my Harley customers was at the car wash, and he had the entire sheet of clear come off of his hard bags in one piece!

I never had any reason to use a Urethane clear over a lacquer . and could never figure out why anyone else would either .
I learned to lay a beautiful enamel job , learned to float the resins to the top , made it look like it was clear coated .
Also hated the dead look of lacquers metallics .

The reason I used that combo was because when I started painting in '65 all of the custom colors were lacquer, and all production colors were available in lacquer. There was no hardener to add to enamels, so you could not put a show finish on them. Lacquer was really the only option for custom work.

After I moved to Arizona in '75, I started having trouble getting a lacquer top coat to live very long. I did mostly Corvettes at that time. The expansion rate is about like aluminum, and we have 40 degree temperature swings every day, so cracking was also a problem. For a while, in the late '80s, I added a small percentage of flex agent to lacquer. That worked pretty well.

By the time I switched to urethane as a topcoat, I kept a few thousand dollars in lacquer inventory. Remember I do custom work, and a typical job has 10-30 colors in it. Also I had learned to do a consistently reliable job, every time, so I did NOT want to start the learning curve over.

What made me switch was the rapidly disappearing choice of colors. There are a few things that urethane will not do, but I needed the options that laquer no longer offers.

BTW, This Spring I saw an '88 Corvette in a local show, that I did in lacquer when it was new. It still looked great, and trophied that day. :-)