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My 33 had black laquer on it when I bought it 14 years ago. to me, laquer has a look you can only get with laquer. It looks like black metal rather than the mile deep, black plastic today's urethanes provide. I KNOW all the cons of laquer...brittle, not nearly as resistant to enviromental chemicals, must be buffed and polished more often, ect. I'm still leaning towards laquer for the look and the ease of application. What are your thoughts?
depth and luster are not related to product or the number of coats. single stage black be it laquer or enamel or urathane will look the same if finished off right. laquer was just easier to polish. i paint a lot of black cars and it just takes extra time to polish. clearcoat over black can haze it some. it is also hard to buy as it is illegal in most places.
The local NAPA store keeps it in stock...qts and gallons. There was talk 5-10 years ago about outlawing it but it didn't come to pass...at leasat not here in rural Wasington State. The difference I'm talking about is hard to describe and I don't know if luster is the term I would use. Over the years we've always talked about black laquer as looking like black metal and urethane looking like metal covered with a deep coating. Both great looks but two different looks and textures.
the trick is to add a little " thalo blue " to the black. that was the name of the old ppg tint. from there it's getting the finish as clear as posible. meaning flat and polished. laquer will sand easier and polish easier. it's the clearity of the finish that gives you that deep look. caint buy laquer here in texas. not in most counties anyway. lot of enamels are gone. centari is gone .
Hey dljdad , I know what you are talking about . I learned to paint 32 years ago and at that time a laquer paint job was
the ultimate . A black laquer job was
what everybody judged the straitness
of a cars body. The look is sort of hard to describe but as crazy as it sounds it was sort of a slick but soft look. When I first saw a bc/cc black job I just thought it looked almost too glossy but having done a few bc/cc jobs I believe I can compare it to the old hand rubbed laquer in look . The last laquer job I did was a 1939 ford pickup . The paint was red , 24 coats , dry
sanded down every 4 coats with 600 grit
then hand rubbed at the end . It was slick
and lasted a long time before it started to show its age. I have a friend ( the one that started me in painting 32 years ago )
and he still uses laquer on a daily or weekly bases .
enjoy it while you can. you cant buy laquer here in texas. at least not in any larger metro area. it is being fased out by most suppliers and mfg. epa and osha have done away with it.
laquer does'nt last very long in todays sun. i would hate to warranty a laquer job here.
Nothing against lacquer, but its a product thats 30 years behind times.
Hope OSHA never goes to that guys house or shop, as fines will be high if they find his booth is inadaquate , as lacquer has the highest VOC content . Thats why its being fazed out .
OSHA is getting real strict as they are now trying to stop all paint sales to an individual , to help stop the home sprayer, as the VOC 's just fly in the air with no filtration system.
So you guys spraying at home , be careful of your neighbors as they can cause you some serious fines if they complain about the smell to the right sources !!
We are not talking 100-500$ fines , we are takling 10's of thousands to millions of dollars.
A razor blade found on a shop floor is 10K fine here, any gallon thinner/reducer container not kept in a fire proof cabinate is 10K fine for every gallon on the shelf . Same goes for unused paint in cans. Lets not even get into where you store your waste,long term jail time if your dumping it on the ground somewhere .
So be careful all you guys doing home paint projects . As OSHA can make your life a living HELL.
We just bought a 5 thousand dollar recycler to recycle our waste as it was costing my shop 1500$ to carry off our 55gallon waste barrel every 2 months , and that waste is our responsibility even on that companies truck till it gets to the destination. If the truck has a roll over and has a chemical spill, we( the shop ) are liable for the Hazmat bill.
SprayTEch
SprayTech, how do you even keep up and know all these rules in having a paint shop? As you probably know, I wan't to have my own shop one day whether it be paint or the mechanics part (probably both kind of like a resto shop) but all these rules seem like they would be too hard to keep track of even if you have a book from OSHA and all these other things. Sorry, not to get off subject here or nothing but your talking about the laws and rules so thought I might ask.
Thanks.
My boss has the 3 inch thick book , and its tough to decipher at times.
Not only that you also have to have safety data sheets on every product you have in your shop too. That even includes the soap you wash your hands with, to windex to clean windows. Every product with a chemical compond has to have a saftey data sheet in that book !!!!!!
Thats if I accidently drink windex or the can blows up in my face , the boss can have the data sheet on that product for the EMS guys that come to save my life. That way they know the chemical make up and know how to treat the problem .
Running a shop today will make you go broke, if you obide by every rule in that OSHA book.
Good luck with owning your own shop as each year it gets more difficult .
You need to do alot of home work to know all the rules on having a Body shop/Hot Rod shop.
Spray
Man, I'm a dinosaur when it comes to building cars and I gave up on lacquer 15 years ago. With all the new products out, it's a blast experimenting with different colors, hues, translucents, tinted clear coats, pearls, etc. No way I would want to go back to having to paint everything black just so people thought you knew how to build a car. I'm sure I could still do it all "the old way", but why?? It is so limiting on what you can actually do if you allow yourself to be caught up in the trap that the old ways are the best ways. Hot rods are a form of expression, if I was to have kept building nothing but black cars with flatheads I sure as heck would have missed out on a bunch of really kewl innovations that have come down the pike in the last 30 years !!!!!!!
I used to paint with laquer also. Twice the effort, half the life. BC/CC gives me better shine, better depth and better life. Products like S-W Glamour Clearcoat are amazing, and there's nothing easier to spray than basecoat. I haven't used anything else in 20 years.
Not that the old laquer jobs didn't look great, but times have changed.
Yeah Spray, seems like it would be a pain in the tail to own a paint/body shop. Oh well, we will see I guess.
Dont let me Rain on your dreams , its just getting difficult to make money for yourself if your going to open your own shop.
Just do your home work , and do it !!!
Your going to an auto body tech school right ?
Have your teacher go over some of the requlations that are required for the Body/Paint shop.
This would be good information for you guys.
Also when you get to the paint section of the classes , have them have you try Water Borne Bases from PPG, it still requires a Uerahane Clear over the top. Water Borne uses Deionized water for reduction.
.
you can also use a special air turbo dryers to help speed up dry times.
I would love to try it but our shop doesnt want to spend any money for me to go to more PPG classes .
SprayTech
Ok I see. Thanks for the info Spray. But yeah I am going to be going to auto body for college and auto tech for my associates degree (they don't offer associates for auto body for some reason) but I will see what I would need. Only thing that will be hard I think is actually getting a paint booth, shop, land, etc. Especially the paint booth, those things are expensive. But of course it's not like I am going to come out of college right away and start a shop, I will be working for others for a few years. There are some kids around here that came straight out of high school and the auto tech program offered here and a few of them have their own full on resto shop doing everything from mechanics part to painting. Only thing I don't see much of here is interior work. Sure there are shops that do it but not custom nice stuff, only small things.
Well alright I don't wanna stay off topic too much here, just stating my info and point.
I STILL want to buy some lacquer!! Where do I get it??
As far as I know, it is illegal to sell lacquer in California, so you won't be able to buy it there. Try Hemmings Motor News, but make sure any supplier is able to ship it to you.
Don't be suprised if you find the color selection very small. Buy extra for future repairs, because in 10-20 years, it will not be available in most cities. I live in a town of almost a million, and I can only get black, white and clear......and it's not against the law here, it's just not popular any more.
You might ask yourself: "If painters are abandoning it by the thousands, what is the reason?" I can tell you that urethanes are superior in many ways. After using lacquer for 40 years, the only advantage, that I can see, is that it is a little better for doing artwork. The urethanes are very tough...lacquer is very fragile. Urethanes have great adhesion....lacquer is problematic for adhesion. You can get any color or product for urethane....lacquer is vanishing fast. None of the new car color formulas are being created for lacquer.
....and the final proof that it is finally on it's way out....
I was a dedicated lacquer fan, but I just gave away about $7500 worth of lacquer, just to get it out of the shop.....and I would NEVER do that! :-) After 40 years of devotion, I finally saw the writing on the wall.
ditto :)
1 thing that is good with laquer is if you get a run, you can play with the run until it comes out, which you cannot do with today's enamels, that's what I'v been told anyway.
Actually, the runs sand out of base coat as easy as lacquer, and usually the top coat is catalyzed, and you can sand and buff them out.
Ither way, I'm not using laquer on my car, just a single stage enamel.
Sounds like a good solid plan....durable....and you can sand and buff if you want a better finish. I've used it many times.
Just be sure to cover your hair!!! I have a lot of gray hair, and I hate it when I shoot red enamel, and it turns my hair pink! I get unwanted attention from some people. :-)~
dave i know what you are looking for you can use bc/cc but in your clear coat use flop agent mixed in with your clear it will give the finish a shiny but hazy looka little cloudy it looks sweet
I also understand what the original submitter was asking about. I too love the look of lacquer. Modern paints looks extremely wet all the time, which in my eyes looks cheap. Lacquer does not look wet and deep like the new paints. The real question for me is, how do you simulate the look of lacquer paints using modern paints? Hochus Pocus was saying something about a "flop agent". I'm not a painter, so could you explain? Is there a company out there that sells paints designed to simulate lacquer for people restoring vintage automobiles? What is the best type of paint to use for simulating lacquer? Thanks.
I think the reason lacquer tended to look different was that was usually sanded and buffed to a very flat surface, which most guys don't achieve with urethane, but it also tended to have less gloss, as it would need constant attention and waxing to keep it fresh looking.
Also, the way paint pigments are made today, colors are richer and more vibrant.
Block out your primer before painting, use very basic color formulas from the 60s-70s, use a single stage catalyzed urethane with no clearcoat, block the paint flat when you finish spraying, and don't stay on the buffer long enough to achieve full gloss.
Hello, Thanks for the reply. When you mention single stage paints, does this include metallic paints? Or do you have to use a clearcoat on metallics?
Thanks.
Yes. It includes metallics, but you have to use a clearcoat with a herdener, IF you want to sand and buff. Otherwise you will be sanding the color pigment or the little metallic flakes.
Single stage means one type of color. What they do is to add clear to the mix so it will dry with a gloss finish.
Two part, or two stage, means that you shoot a color first, and then a clearcoat. On this type, they only use enough paint resin to stick pigment to the surface, and it dries without a gloss.
And then you have the wounderful world of Tri-Stage :D
2 Types :
1: A metallic/pearl coat 9 and can be any color choice ), with a translucent color ( any color choice too ) over the top , with each coat ( called a mid coat ) getting deeper/darker . Then finish it off with clear .
Mixing bases and mid coats can achieve some crazy colors , especially House fo Kolor Kandies !!
But for an easier application , you can use , Say for instance , You want a Kandy Blue , you can use a metallic blue base , then the Kandy blue over it .
A person doesnt have to use the standard Gold , Silver , Pearl White , Pearl Black . And for a real crazy kandy job , use several base colors fadded/blended into each other , then a Kandy Kolor of your choice over it for an Extreame effect :)
Makes for a different look with flames or scallops !
2: A Solid base color , with a pearl mid coat over that , usually 2-4 , any more then that it will usually go muddy looking . Then finish it with clear.
Painting and spotting can be tough !!!!
Spray
Ahh yes. Tri coats, such as Chrysler's Inferno Red, and others.
I recently attempted to color match the hood on a Dodge Magnum. I made two attempts at it, then for the first time in over 30 years, I returned the customer's money, and sent him to the dealership.
It was a good reminder why I tell customers not to choose a candy paint job for the street.
They are animals arent they ..........:LOL:
I spot them Tri suckers all day long , I think every Cad, new bonne , and now the friggin Envoys are Tri-Stage , matter of fact I have a bumper , right 1/4 and doors to spot on an Envoy tomarrow, I have been spotting these bastages since the friggin cad allanti , what a pisser that was !
The trick is not keeping the spot tight HRP , and knowing how many mid coats to apply, most fords, chryslers, and GMs require 3-4 blend out mid coats. I think once you got the hang of them ( factory tris ) , you would do alright .
For a door ding in say a rear door I will take the 1/4 and the front door for blending out , as the pearl coat needs to be sprayed super thin , and several stair stepped layers , then the mid coat mixed accordingly , then stairstepped out , They arent ment to keep tight , een though I have succeded in doing it , after doing them for 20 years , at one time I was the only guy in town that did them , and insurance companies told the customers to bring them to the shop I worked at , now with all the Paint company schools teaching painters how to do them , I just get the return GM cars , but every once in awhile i run into a chrysler or ford .
Spray
Spray Tech, I was repairing the hood as a favor, since I got the job doing some 60's inspired stripes, on a red Magnum, but from the start the color was too blueish, so I don't know if the paint code wasn't the same color for the new year-models or what! Color matching candy production cars is NOT my forte'! I'll find a picture.
Magnum stripes with "chrome" Hemi logo, and ram's head.
Very Nice !!! I like
I only dabble little in custom paint any more , but quit doing it along time ago , I have lost alot of my talent with air brusing ,and pinstriping , as everyone wants a custom job , but didnt like the price , what they fail to understand is you are paying for the guys tallent and materials , not just a paint job !!
By chance did you see the Rides TV show tonight ?
With Mike Lovelle ? The true flames creator .
He is here in Wichita getting ready to do a high dollar cesena jet , he was in the Jobbers shop I order color from , and is one hell of a nice guy i guess , talked to my jobber friend for hours , and showed him his portfollio , and ordered 3 or 4 thousand dollars of HoK kandy .
He showed him what is going on the jet, its a jet somehow blowing through the clouds or something .
Spray
Spray, I am watching that Rides show RIGHT NOW. Seems like it's going to be sweet! Also did you get my PM Spray?
Spray Tech, Sounds pretty cool. I don't know if I would want to tackle a large plane.
BTW, did you know that automotive painters were experimenting with photorealistic flames 20 years ago? They didn't catch on, obviously. Of course it would make sense that artists have tried to duplicate flames for about 25,000 years, if you think about it. It seems that most "new" things have usually been attempted somewhere in the past. The lucky (or smart) painters reach national prominance at the same time that they are developing their own techniques.
Planes SUCK to paint , and so do semis .........I used to custom paint the semis back in 79 and fell off a 16 foot rickity ladder onto a masking machine , because the shop didnt want to buy scaffolding , so I took my paint guns and left .:3dSMILE:
And FMX , yes i got your PM .
Spray
If I had to look forward to trucks and planes every day, I would consider getting a REAL job!
Well SOMEONE'S gotta do it.
talking about spraying semis i was painting for about 8 years at a shop and decided to make more money at a truck body shop. they made me walk the mast of a bentley roll off trailer while it was 1/2 way up when i was walking down i had to spray it and get ever nook and cranny. this was on my first day people in the shop was taking bets who long i would last. they said car painters never last. i got in the bet and won because i left that day. commercial equipment painters have it rough and i found out in my area they dont get paid like a car painter.
Just wait.....someone will figure out how to powdercoat them! :-)