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I'm thinking about painting my chevelle a flat black or satin black, and using pearl to put green ghost flames in the clear. Any suggestions or reasons you don't think it should be done? I would like the flames to be visible only in certain lights. I'd appreciate any advice.
The only problem is that if you put clear over flat black it isn't flat anymore.
i have heard there is a satin clear but havent used it. maybe u could do a test panel first to see what u are in for.
I was thinking like Ives said about using the satin clear
I read in alot of the threads on here that flat paints are more likely to rust or fade than other paints. Do you know if this would hold true with that satin clear?
If you use a catylized clear and flatten it, it will hold out water , but longevity will be reduced some. I would recomend 3 coats of flattened clear, as this will help further the longevity too.
SprayTech
thanks alot SprayTech
HELLO
SPRAY TECH IS RIGHT
THERE ARE FLATTENING AGENTS FOR URETHANE CLEARS. (SIKKENS, DUPONT AND PPG HAVE THEM)
THE BIGGEST USE OF THIS PRODUCT IS FOR MERCEDES BUMPERS, THEY ARE PAINTED THAT WAY FROM THE FACTORY.
SO YOU WOULD BASE THE VEHICLE, THEN MIX YOUR CLEAR WITH THE FLATTENER AND SPRAY THREE COATS..
ONE OTHER THING I WOULD RECCOMEND IS TO DO YOUR GHOST FLAMES IN A PEARL BASE COAT AND NOT PUT THE PEARL IN THE CLEAR. YOU HAVE MORE CONTROL OF THE PEARL LAYOUT AS A BASECOAT..
do you think it would be possible to mix up some pearl with clear and airbrush it on? Would the pearl look the same in the base coat as it would in the clear coat? I we painted my sister's mustang with a pearl in the clear and it got really nice. Would it look the same in the basecoat?
I don't think you are going to be satisfied with the finished product if you are planning on only using pearl to define the flames... Problem is that you usually see Pearl when it shines. If you use a flattening agent in the clear the paint won't shine and you probably won't see too much of the pearl...
Just one oppinion...
Dave Brisco
For a flat black a lot of people are using John Deeres Blitz Black paint that is cheap as hell. Only like 22 bucks for a gallong and then they say to use their primer which is I think only 12 bucks and then their thinner and a hardener. I have seen some done with this black and it's awsome. It's a flat black as well with a tad bit of a shine but you can't tell unless it's next to another flat black vehicle. I would say to air brush over the flat black with a gloss color but not sure. Spraytech and DangerousToy are the paint pro's here.
dave
your two cents might add up to four..
yes the shine is needed in most situations and the pearl will not have a bold stand out effect under a flattened clear. but it can be seen, again not with the same effect as the car you paint with regular shiny clear. as far as pearl in the clear versus pearl as base coat, under normal situations the pearl will look the same but you will have less build up (or should i say thinner tape lines) with the base than with clear, also you will not run into a problem with cloudy looking pearl, it can happen when mixed in clear because your clear does not allow your pearl to lay flat and balanced. pearl works off of light in two directions. the first is the light that hits it directly, the second is light that is reflected from underneath.. there for pearls always stand out the most over black. they become bolder and more radiant. so even with a flattened clear you will still see it is present...
the best advice is to spray a few test panels before painting the car. this way you can figure out just how much pearl and how many coats you need to acheive the desired look...
What else I think would be cool that I have never seen would be do a flat black, tape off flames and throw a clear over it and have a glossy black flames and flat black vehicle. I think that would be sweet and something different.
That does sound like a neat idea, but I think I'd like to keep the green accent in it. I don't really want the ghost flames to stand out alot either. I want it to look like a flat black car from a distance. This way it won't draw any attention from anyone who doesn't respect the car as an american muscle car. The tuner kids can drive by with their sticker covered toy and have no thoughts about keying.
I plan on looking into that john deer paint. Do you know if that will work with the pearl though?
I do not think a flat color will work with a pearl that will shine so it won't come out with a ghost look. The John Deere paint works very well and will hold up to any weather. They use it on tractors so of course it will hold real good, it doesn't chaulk white either.
CAJUN1...
I may not have explained myself very well... I believe that you will be able to see the pearl paint underneath the dulled clear, but I don't believe it will look like a pearl... While I have never exactly tried this, I have wet sanded clear coats with pearl under them and when the finish is dull the pearl is not nearly as noticable and looks more like tinted paint... It just does not gleam like a pearl should...
I agree that you will be able to see it and if you lay down a couple of nice coats it should be able to have enough contrast to be seen...
Sorry, I did not explain it "clear" enough... :)
Dave Brisco
If you want this neat effect, lay down your flames and clear them with gloss clear, then back mask the flames, spray the rest of the car with flat Blitz black, then clear the black with a flattened clear. If you get a bad tapeline at the junction between the clears, water sand it out and buff.
Am I reading this correct?
You want pearl flames flattened ?
I hate to say it but why waste money using pearl in a flattened clear? Like dangerous mentioned , you most likely will have just a flat looking mud flames , the shine of clear is what makes pearl POP in the sunlight !
I dont think I would waste money on something that cant be seen .
Why not go with a traditional type flame job , like go from white, fadded into yellow , fadded into orange , fadded into red at the tips, and use flattener in each color to have the flat look through out the whole flat black paint skeem ?
Just my 2 pennies worth :)
SprayTech
Gloss flames on flat black WON'T make ghost flames man. It's like having a male side of a cord going into the male side of a extension cord, just won't work. Sorry to tell you that, I know you wanted positive answers but... that's how it goes I guess. :D
I have a flat black truck with clear flames. I sprayed the truck with a single stage Dupont gloss black and befor it cured well I rubbed it down with a scotch brite pad. then I taped off the flames and sprayed it with clear.
mike
another one from the front.
See, now that was what I was talking about. You don't see that a lot, well at least I haven't seen that before. That is what I would like to do to a truck, flat black and gloss flames.
Mike that is a very nice technique on your truck...
Great job...
Dave Brisco
Could you not achieve exactly the same effect by painting the entire thing Blitz (tractor) black, let it dry for a week, then mask off your flames same as you would do for a conventional flame job, then spray the area where you want the flames to be with clear???
I think it all depends Brian. I think you are supposed to throw the clear on at a certain time. Like you are supposed to wait I think 3 or 5 hours and put a second coat on if you wan't with the Blitz balck and if you wait any longer then it will start to screw up. Here is some things to look at with that John Deere BB paint. I know this isn't specifically answering your question Brian but it should help man.
From: Valspar Paint General Manager. (They make Blitz Black for John Deere.)
#1. If the existing paint is relatively good condition (ie. no peeling paint, no large amount of rust, etc) no primer is needed. Scuff sand the existing paint with extra fine grit sandpaper, wipe surface with a clean cloth and then apply John Deere Blitz Black.
#2. If primer is used due to bare metal or minor surface defects, we suggest the John Deere Buff Primer (available in aerosols, quarts and gallons). This is a very "user friendly" formulation that provides good sandability, excellent filling/sealing properties and enhanced corrosion resistance.
#3. A reducer is needed for optimum sprayability and appearance. We suggest the use of the John Deere thinner/reducer (available in quarts gallon and fives). It is formulated specifically for John Deere paints. The mix ratio is 8 parts John Deere paint : 1 part John Deere thinner.
#4. John Deere Blitz Black is an "air dry" formulation...but if a you want the paint to dry faster and harder, John Deere has a hardener in their product line. It is available in pints, part number REN3001. The mix ratio is 8 parts John Deere paint : 1 part REN3001 hardener : 1 part John Deere thinner.
And the curing window, etc is:
Shooting to a good surface IE: Bare metal, John Deere Primer, or to a good base of existing paint scuffed up.
1 light tack coat and wait no longer than 15 minutes to shoot the full wet coat.
For a second coat which is NOT needed but why the hell not.
Wait up to but NO longer than 3 hours to apply second coat.
But if you go past 3 hours DO NOT shoot another coat because the paint will react and go to $#!T. Wait 36 hours until you shoot the next coat. For each coat the same times apply. But one good coat with the 8 to 1 to 1 (8-1-1 paint-thinner-hardener) will be more than enough.
If I can get ahold of this 53 chevy truck then I am going to be doing the flat black and I was thinking of either metallic blue flames over it but not solid, only an outline that kind of fades in the center and there will be the black in the center of them, or the gloss black flames. I can't decide which to do yet. Either way I think is different.
FMX--during the 70's I flamed many cars and vans, with great success. I found that for painting flames it went like this----if you painted your car in acrylic enamel with the proper hardners, you could mask it off in 24 hours, scuff it litely with a scotchbrite pad, spray your flames, unmask in about 6 to 10 hours and never have a problem. Cars that were painted in a "standard enamel" were more of a pain----you had to use a hardner in the paint and wait at least a week, mask it off, then spray the flames---the really trick part was in pulling the tape after the flames had dried. Standard enamel does not adhere to the car as well as acrylic enamel, so when you were pulling the tape from your flame job, it was a real bitch to keep from pulling peices of the paint job off the car, stuck to the masking tape. I think what I would do is instead of using Blitz black, I would use black acrilic enamel with a flattening agent in it for the first coat., then mask off the flames and spray the clear or colour and clear, if only to prevent lifting the black when I pulled the tape.
Mike ~ VERY NICE!!!!! I haven't ever seen that effect...It looks AMAZING!!!!! I LOVE IT!!! :3dSMILE:Quote:
Originally posted by mike schramm
I have a flat black truck with clear flames. I sprayed the truck with a single stage Dupont gloss black and befor it cured well I rubbed it down with a scotch brite pad. then I taped off the flames and sprayed it with clear.
mike
Here is a picture of me and a flame job that I done on a friends car about 15 years ago.
Brian, that's a gorgeous flame job...good grief, I can't even draw a round smiley face right... :rolleyes: :3dSMILE:
Thanks for the positive comments. I do love the matte black look, however, eventhough the body is arrow straight and the paint job is professional I still get people asking me "when are you gonna paint it?" ....IT IS PAINTED....
brianrupnow, I dont know anything about JD Blitz Black but if it is not a catalyzed paint I myself would not use it.
If I did it again I would use the Dupont line call Hot Hues. With Hot Hues you have two choices. Base coat/Clear coat using their semigloss clear or their Hot Rod Black single stage. Here is a link to the Hot Rod Black. If it doesent work then just search the web for Hot Hues home page
http://pc.dupont.com/HotHues/deploye...0pg_ER3838.pdf
Locally the Hot Rod Black sells for $50 a quart and only thins something like 3 parts paint 1 part thinner + hardener.
mike
Interesting story behind that flame job---my friend built the car, then took a side profile picture with his camera, then traced the outlines on a peice of tracing paper. He made about a dozen zerox copies of the outline and involved his wife, young son, and early teenage daughter in designing what they considered to be the perfect flame layout. When they all reached a concensus on which hand drawn flame layout looked the best, they coloured the picture and gave it to me. That picture I am holding is the coloured picture they gave me to use as a guide for laying out the flames on the car.---I went to his house about 150 miles from where I live on a Friday night, of a long weekend---he had the car all in primer, ready for me----I painted the black on Saturday morning, drank beer all Saturday afternoon, Layed out the flames Sunday morning (with massive headache), sprayed the flames all wet on wet on Sunday afternoon, Sprayed the clear Sunday at midnight, Got up Monday morning and pulled all the tape. The car was finished except for reassembly of some parts that were sprayed off the car on sawhorses on Monday afternoon.
Thats a great story. Sounds like my life. Ive gotten myself into quite a few jobs that at first seem "superhuman". Later in life when you look back you think "How the Hell did I......No...Why the Hell did I do that". You sware you'll never put yourself under those constrants again and then befor you know it.........well, you get the idea.
mike
Well not sure why you wouldn't use the BB. It is used on tractors, holds up really well, lasts for a really long time. All you would have to do is pull the tape off before it dries all the way, just take your time and don't touch the wet top coat.
Alright, I guess the ghost flames in the flat black is out of the question then. I'm thinking about maybe doing the whole car in gloss black with ghost flames, or two toning with flat black and glossy color, and ghost flaming the gloss color. I like that flat black with the gloss black flames, but I don't want to leave the flat part unprotected without clear to seal it, and I don't really feel like using two different clears.
I would love to have those shiny flames on my dually!! I am about to paint my truck with the Blitz Black and could not find John Deere Hardener. I bought a pint from napa for $47.00. It says it is a high solids hardener. I believe the Blitz Black is a synthetic enamel. In this post previously it was suggested by FMXhellraiser that I need one part of hardened and thinner to eight parts paint. Would this type of hardener be ok with the BB? Someone also said they wouldn't use Blitz Black cause it wasn' a catalized paint. Isn't that why you add the hardener (catalist)? I am a bit confused and want to ease my mind before starting on the truck. If not I got an old horse trailer to practice on. Could try the flames there as well. Thanks
Tommy
There is synthetic enamel, and acrylic enamel, I would read the label to try to determine the type of paint John Deere is selling. The can of hardener should tell you which kind it will work with, or call NAPA for that info.
Many paints are designed for use without a catalyst. Adding a universal catalyst will give the paint more "toughness" than it would normally have.
Judging by the price of the John Deere product, do not expect miracles! You have to ask yourself why 99% of the automotive paint & body shops spend a tremendous amount on materials? It is not because they want to help our economy. :-) It is because the cheap stuff is not normally acceptable......not even close! As a general rule, if you use a good quality urethane paint system, it will last 10-20 years....instead of 5 years or less!
Thanks hotrodpaint. I am not looking for a showroom paint job, this is a ranch truck that gets a lot of abuse. I just like flat black and am a cheap mother and I heard it was very easy to paint with. The John Deer paint is a synthetic enamel according to the can. Napa sold me the high solids hardener and there are no directions on it but the guy said it would work great with a syn. enamel. It is made by martin senour paints. Funny thing is I found out the Blitz Black is made by the same people that make the House Of Color Paint line, Valspar. I also am from the school of "expensive is not always the best, sometimes just the best advertised and highest in demand" and I can only hope the Blitz Black will lasts five years. LOL Thanks again.
Tommy
Valspar was a producer of industrial-type paints, before they bought House of Kolor, so that would explain their involvement with a tractor company.
Using expensive paint on a work truck does not sound like a good choice to me either. I just wanted you to know that there is a difference. Simply ask a professional painter who is expected to deliver high quality work. However, if you decide that the lesser priced paint will suit your purpose, then why spend the extra?
It's like hamburger and porterhouse. They are not the same, but if you don't mind hamburger, it's much easier on the budget! :-)
I haven't used this JD paint yet but do you guy's think it will last me AT LEAST 5 years? Also 5 years meaning it will be covered up sometimes and also left outside a bit too so basically it will be used like any other car. I don't plan to beat the hell outta this truck so....
Thanks!