Boxing a Frame

Well one of the first things I wan't to do before I powder coat my frame on the truck is box it in... I never done this before so not sure on what to do here... Any tips on how I should do it and what NOT to do?
What kind of metal should I use, is there a place that has the metal for a 53 already cut out or should I just make my own? Just any info is appreciated. I have seen it done on TV and all and watched it but never actually done it myself or seen the whole process in real life and I don't wan't to spend all this money on something and screw it up because I did something wrong. I just mainly wan't to know what NOT to do. Oh one last question, will a MIG welder work?

Thanks in advance.

keep your guard up, quick jabs, and watch for that left hook.

As apposed to Framing a Boxer???:) :) :LOL:

I have only seen it done and tried myself with an inadequate welder. I do not know where precut plates are available but they used to be available for '28-'32 but tube frames are so common today I have not seen the plates advertised lately, so you may have to cut your own. I can only make one suggestion. You can choose to weld slightly inside the frame (preferred) or flush to the outside of the top and bottom of the frame. The second way has the disadvantage that when you grind the welds for appearance you weaken the weld so it is better to set the plates in about 1/8" and weld inside the edge. I wish I had a MIG welder, go to it!

Don Shillady
Retired Scientist/teen rodder

Unless you are going to add some serious power, (like over 350 Horses), a truck frame is heavy enough that it shouldn't need boxing. That being said, here is what you do. First, get some heavy cardboard, (not the corrugated stuff boxes are made from), it is available in 24 x 36" sheets. measure the widest (deepest) part of your frame, add an inch, and cut the cardboard into strips that width x 36" long. You could conceivably glue all the strips together to make a peice of cardboard as long as your frame, but it really isn't neccessary. Starting at the end of the frame where the boxing starts, hold the cardboard against the inside of the frame and trace the outline of the frame on the cardboard. Measure the thickness of the frame and offset the traced lines towards the inside of the pattern by that amount from each side, and cut it out. Repeat this over the full length of the frame, keeping in mind that the ends of your 36" peices of boxing plate will have to butt up against one and other neatly for welding. Go to your local welding shop and buy some 1/8" (approximately #11 gauge) hot rolled mild steel plate. You can buy any width you want, but this stuff weighs in at 5 pounds per square foot, so a 36" x 72" peice weighs 90 pounds. Trace the patterns you made out onto the steel plate with a soapstone, and flame cut them with oxy acetylene, plasma, or even a saber saw with metal cutting blade. Bevel the edges on the side which is going to face away from the framerail at 45 degrees with your grinder, all around. The next step is a matter of personal taste. You can inset the peices of plate into the channel which forms the framerail untill the boxing plate is flush with the frame, and weld it like that (that looks best) or you can steal a page from "Pete and Jake" and set the plate in an additional 5/8" farther into the c shape of the frame, and weld it like that. That is called "step boxing", and gives a kind of "ledge" on the inside of the frame on which you can route wiring or brake lines, But it doesn't look as nice. Make sure that your frame is perfectly level, and if you have the body off, check cross corner dimensions to make sure it hasen't parallelogrammed. You can use a mig here, as long as it is capable of welding 1/8" plate (check the manufacturers recomendations). Tack everything into place using light tacks, then weld only about a maximum of 2" in any one place, then jump to another part of the frame and repeat the 2" weld. The reasoning here is to avoid any undue heat build-up in any one area, which could cause warpage and misalignment problems. When all your seamz are fully welded, a bit of work with the grinder and some 36 grit discs will clean it up.----a note here---if you "step box" the frame, you don't have to grind the 45 degree bevel on your boxing plates, and there is very little grinder work afterwards. However, if you keep the boxing plates flush with the outside of the frame, you must grind the 45 degree bevel on the side of the boxing plates which faces away from the frame, so that when you grind everything to make it look good you will still have sufficient weld to hold everything together properly.
I hope this helps, and keep in mind that this only applies to frames which are formed like a c-channel.

brianrupnow, thank you for the help, I appreciate it lots. Yeah it's a u frame of course so I wan't to box it in even if I won't have too much power in it. For now it will be my every day driver truck but later I plan to not drive it as much when I can afford another truck and just use this one to take to hot rod shows and meets and all. Thanks for reminding me about the 2 inch thing and moving, I already knew that but forgot about it. When you said make sure your welder will weld up to 1/8 inch thick I got scared there for a second but remembered that my Miller welder will. I will have to to use the saw to cut out the metal (I will use a ton of blades I am sure) because I don't have an oxy or plasma. My dad almost bought me a Oxy welder a few months back but I told him not to yet but I guess it's time I get one, either that or start saving for a plasma. If I am going to be putting on a new front end as well then should I wait until I get the front end on there because won't that change a lot or no?
Thanks again.

Kind of curious why you want to box the frame before you know what it is you'll be dropping in there, and before you know your suspension needs. The frame is meant to twist and flex to absorb shock in it's stock state. If your not making any mods you could be doing something you will need to change later when your mods begin. Best to have an idea of the end result before hand. When you box the frame without adding crossmembers and apropriate suspension you risk damaging the frame. These can become work hardened over time and then restricting the movement(or shock absorbing quality) while retaining the suspension may give you problems. This is all worst case, and I'm sure lots have lived happily ever after doing just this thing, as well as it is your project to learn with. But on the flip side, patience and a well planned build are a favorable happy ending. Just playing devils advocate, and only my 2c.

I guess your right there Justin but I plan on throwing a 383 in it, 400 Turbo tranny, maybe even a 700R, I am thinking maybe a 9inch rear end and the front I don't know because I am going to have to hunt around in the junk yards. For the rear I will need new leaf springs and then the springs and all I am not sure yet either. I though that I can just go ahead and box it in and add on top of that? Can I not do that then or will it make it a pain later on to do what I just explained? Thanks for bringing that to attention I never thought of it but people told me that I should box the frame in to make it stronger, might as well I thought.

Brian, EXCELLENT answer, I was just trying to get the discussion off of "shadow boxing" toward a real answer. I have actually been a "welders helper" in quite a few industrial applications (mostly gas welding though), but I never could afford a real welder and did not get actual experience. I am toying with buying a welder now in my later years since I do have a 220 VAC outlet in my garage now. What amperage would I need (FMX too) for the 1/8" weld or for that matter the 3/16" bracket for a power brake bracket? My last attempts used a 50 amp toy and that clearly was not enough to weld on a Model-A frame, certainly not 3/16" plate. I guess FMX has seen your pictures of the PU you are building and there sure is plenty of welding there!

Don Shillady
Retired Scientist/teen rodder

Don,

In a wire welder, a 25-135 amp unit will weld 3/16" steel - but that's pretty much the top of its range. A 30-175 would handle just about anything you want to do in the shop.

I prefer TIG myself, but then I've used one of those for quite a few years. A TIG and a torch do most anything I want. TIG is slower, but I can see what I'm doing much better than with a wire.

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Henry Rifle
Don,

In a wire welder, a 25-135 amp unit will weld 3/16" steel - but that's pretty much the top of its range. A 30-175 would handle just about anything you want to do in the shop.

I prefer TIG myself, but then I've used one of those for quite a few years. A TIG and a torch do most anything I want. TIG is slower, but I can see what I'm doing much better than with a wire.

---

....... and no pesky sparks in yer' boot. He He He:) :) :)

Don, I have a Millermatic 135. It will weld anything from 0.8-4.8mm) mild steel. I have used it on metals once size thicker than 1/8 and it worked fine. It is only 115 v too so no need for the different outlets and it's nice and light to carry around on the cart. Another good one is the one that's a step up from that which is the Millermatic 175. I have used lincoln electric welders before and prefer a Miller over a Lincoln anyday. Now that is for MIG. For TIG you can go with something small for a hobbyist or whatever and get a Miller Econotig or Maxstar 200 Series. They offer two different models on the Maxstar 200, a SD which is just a bisic one or a DX which is a bit better and pulses on and off. The Maxstar is pretty expensive, I don't remember the price on it but I think the gun and everything you have to buy seperate. Miller has more high end TIG welders as well like the Syncrowave Series so you can check those out as well, I have not used them yet but hear that they are very good and that is what I wan't next. I hope this helped a bit, for once I am helping instead of asking the questions, lol.

Oh yeah, also on that truck... I went by one more time to check it out and looked at the frame all over again the best I could and looked through the rusted floor and saw that the frame was rusted ALL OVER the place and all the way through. When I saw that I just got pissed and said screw it I am not getting it now. I really like the truck but I have been thinking how much it would take just to even get it road worthy and after seeing how bad the frame really was, it's not even worth it, I might as well spend the extra 500 bucks and get the 48 Chevy Coupe with a Z28 front end and sandblasted body and everything where it won't need as much work. So that 53 is out of the question now, and I am pissed because I spent hours pricing all the panels, floors, glass, etc up but oh well I learned a lesson. Keep the comments and all comming because I still wan't to learn more about the chissis and frames and all.

Some thoughts from an old hotrodder-----I have been building rods for close to 40 years, and all of the frame work I have done, from repairing, to boxing, to building complete frames from rectangular tubing has been done with an old 180 amp Lincoln AC stickwelder, using 1/8" rod, #6013, set on 115 or 130 Amps, depending on the thickness of what I was welding. I have never had a weld break in all these years, and these years have seen some pretty damn good drag racing with big engines. About 6 months ago I went and bought a Lincoln 110 volt mig, as I knew I would have a lot of welding to do on the sheet metal body of the roadster pickup I am building. This mig works wonderfully for sheet metal, but there is absolutely no way I would consider using it to weld chassis components with. Yes, it will deposit a bead of weld on anything that you want, but once you get any heavier than #14 gauge steel, you just don't get the penetration that you need in a chassis weld to take the concentrated forces that are applied to the welded area. This can kill you. In retrospect, I wish I had bought a larger 220 volt mig, because its wonderfull having no slag to chip, and very little clean-up, however my old 180 Lincoln buzz box still works great, and I couldn't justify the expense. About the plasma cutter---Yeah, they work great, but all they do is cut. If you have an oxy acetylene rig, you can cut, heat things, (as in removing frozen bolts), you can braze, you can solder, you can even steel wire weld, like us old guys started on years ago. If you have an oxy acetylene rig, they are inexpensive, and very versatile in a shop. If you have a plasma cutter, you are still going to have to buy an oxy acetylene rig to do all the things that a plasma cutter can't do. If you are running a production shop, where time is money, a plasma cutter is justifiable, because the cuts are so clean there is very little time required for grinding and cleanup. However, if you are a hobby builder, you will have to have an angle grinder anyways, and your time is essentially free, so you can spend a bit of time cleaning up oxy acetylene cut peices.

Yeah brian there basically hit it right on. I have used a Lincoln AC stick welder but a bit bigger than what he mention I THINK, I can't remember because it was last where when I used it and I only used it a couple times but yes it will weld up pretty damn nice and strong as hell too. They say TIG welders are better than mig because TIG is hotter and it takes longer for the weld to cool and they say that since it takes longer then of course weld is stronger than a MIG welder where the weld isnt' as hot and cools faster so TIG welding takes longer to cool. I don't remember exactly how to explain it but you get the point I am trying to get across I am sure. Don't go cheap on a welder though, that's all I have to say. Now if your looking to weld some aluminum from time to time and you go with a MIG welder then prepare to spend an extra 600 bucks or more on top of the welder. If you wan't to weld aluminum you will need a control box and a spool gun. You can sometimes get by with just using a spool gun on a Lincoln welder but on the Miller you NEED to have that control box or else you will not get a good weld at all. Also you need the wire for aluminum.... I guess that's all there really is too it. Pretty damn simple if you ask me. I still have tons to learn too. A lot of people that I know that have been welding for years tell me that they still learn something new everytime they weld or almost everytime so don't expect to learn how to weld real good right away and know everything either because I have only been welding for a little over two years or so and still just don't know too much. I wan't to take some classes on TIG, Stick and oxy welding to learn I guess you would call it theory I don't know but like not how to get good at welding with them but to learn to use them properly and what to do in certain situations with each welder.
Alright well I have wrote enough so I'll let you guy's put your imput on this...

Quote:

---

Originally posted by FMXhellraiser
They say TIG welders are better than mig because TIG is hotter and it takes longer for the weld to cool and they say that since it takes longer then of course weld is stronger than a MIG welder where the weld isnt' as hot and cools faster so TIG welding takes longer to cool. I don't remember exactly how to explain it but you get the point I am trying to get across I am sure.

---

Actually FMX the advantage of a TIG is the pinpoint control of heat to the workpiece so there is a narrower heat zone. (Less distortion).
Also, there is no slag
No Sparks
No Splatter on the surrounding workpiece
very little noise
No smoke or fumes so it's safer health wise and no smoke makes it easier to see the weld puddle so you have better penetration control.

Disadvantage is you have to to run the filler rod with one hand .... the torch with the other ..... and control the amperage with a foot control.
Don't touch the tungsten electrode to the filler rod or the workpiece or you will contaminate it. Then you have to stop and grind a new point on the electrode. Been there a few times.
The workpiece , electrode and filler rod need to be clean of all contaminates.
It's a slower process than stick or mig.

but the end result is great, once you get the hang of it.

Yeah I don't know much at all about TIG welding but wan't to learn pretty bad. I haven't been welding as much lately since I ran out of things to weld, I have only been welding a few things for some people at my church and my dad's friends but I am getting much better at the MIG. In about 2 days of welding I improved a TON, more than I expected.

I am not a welder by any stretch of the imagination, but will attest to the added strength of a boxed frame. The frame on my car was boxed in, but it was done with a Lincoln arc welder about 25 years ago.

I have my car setting up on jack stands, and last week I was polishing things on the engine, and bumped the jack stand under the right front. It moved a couple inches, and the right side never drooped. I can bump the jack stand pretty good, and totally take it out. I'm sure the crossmembers add alot of rigidity, but I was amazed to see that the car did not flex or twist at all. It sat there like the jack stand was under it, but I could move the jack stand freely.

Good luck. I wish I could offer a little more technical info, but it seems you got some pretty good responses!

Greg

Welcome to the boards by the way there too blueovalfanatic.

Thanks, FMX. This is a nice site, and I plan to visit often! Seems to be a bunch of friendly people here.

Greg

To answer your questions....
SURE THING!
A mig will work fine to box your frame.
Some basic fab work will need to be done...
Here is a site to show you what I did to box the back half of my frame...

http://community.webshots.com/album/42686829suXirA

Couple things to remember.
A) Remove your p/u box. You will need the elbow room.
B) Remove the gas tank and fuel lines. You don't want to need the F.D.
C) Remove the brake lines.
D) Make sure you drill big holes with a hole saw that allow you access to any frame holes that take bolts or stids..Like your snubbers.
E) After grinding and fitting your boxing plates, slide them in past the frame rail edges so you can weld on the inside edge of the frame rails.

You can do it!
Jeff
:toocool:

Thanks deepinhock. I guess I didn't really need this info now but still good to know since I am not getting that truck anymore and the 48 Coupe I am getting from a friend already has a 79 Z28 front end and boxed in frame and has all the clips on it already. Only thing to really do to it is take the paint they put on there so it didn't rust, off and then powder coat it and start working from there.
I bought a few books like So-Cal Speed Shops "How to Build Hot Rod Chassis" and "Hot Rodders Bible" and Tex Smiths "How to Chop Tops". These books have a quite a bit of info in them and I only started reading the hot rodders bible and have learned a bit already from reading only 40 pages and just flipping through the other two books reading a little out of sections on that too. Has anyone else got this so cal chassis book? If so then how did you like it? I haven't even started it but plan on it tonight at about 12 oclock when I am about half way through this hot rod bible.
I wish I wanted to read like this in school, heh.

Now don't take thi the wrong way, but......

You are not ever going to build up a car reading magazines and books.

You get ideas from reading, but you need to put those ideas into action......

Work hard, save your bucks, and spend them wisely.

Dive into it and get building.

Jeff:toocool:

Quote:

---

Originally posted by FMXhellraiser
Thanks deepinhock. I guess I didn't really need this info now but still good to know since I am not getting that truck anymore and the 48 Coupe I am getting from a friend already has a 79 Z28 front end and boxed in frame and has all the clips on it already. Only thing to really do to it is take the paint they put on there so it didn't rust, off and then powder coat it and start working from there.
I bought a few books like So-Cal Speed Shops "How to Build Hot Rod Chassis" and "Hot Rodders Bible" and Tex Smiths "How to Chop Tops". These books have a quite a bit of info in them and I only started reading the hot rodders bible and have learned a bit already from reading only 40 pages and just flipping through the other two books reading a little out of sections on that too. Has anyone else got this so cal chassis book? If so then how did you like it? I haven't even started it but plan on it tonight at about 12 oclock when I am about half way through this hot rod bible.
I wish I wanted to read like this in school, heh.

---

Lol. I know that already, I have experienced that in auto tech class for 2 years. We read out of the books on how to do something and I get the knowledge on the steps of what to do then when I get out there to do it, of course it's a bit harder and I really learn how to do it then. I know what you mean but the books do help by giving me knowledge on how to approach a certain situation. Thanks for the info though man, I appreciate it.