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Realistically turning one of these Birds into a stoplight terror would be a trick involving a fair amount of work. They weigh in at well over 4000 lbs (if memory serves correctly). Either a big inch FE or 460 with good exhaust would make enough torque, but then you run into the problem of getting it on the pavement. As I recall the stock rear wheelwell is pretty restrictive for tire size. Just something to keep in mind when your working the rear quarters.
A few nights ago we moved his Bird into the shop and compared the empty engine room to the 302 in his T bucket. There would be NO problem getting it in there, nothing is in the way. Only problem is, it would look like a Briggs and Stratton sitting down in there. :LOL: I even have a rebuildable 302 roller motor sitting unused, but I didn't seem to get a lot of interest out of Don when I suggested it. I told him TRUE custom car guys never pop the hood anyway, it breaks up the lines of the car. ;)
Don
Maybe you could put TWO 302s in there**) or go with one of these http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...nalds88020.jpg
Thanks for that Daffy, that's about as pretty as it gets!!!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by Daffy427
I was thinking 302 as well. There are a lot of aftermarket crate 302's that put out some high horse power, or a SBC for a lot less, like you say Don, the hood will be down most of the time. I still like the idea of the BBF but it sounds like the exhaust would be tricky. Maybe a zupped up 390 with thos expensive headers, and a c-6 swap! Whatever you choose, I'm betting it will be fast(you pops has told us about the power in front of little Mr. Blue T bucket!) It sounds like this might be a neck snapper too!:eek: :cool:
I don't know how major a project you want to make out of this car. Being a fairly heavy car, I'd go with a 460/aod combo,even if I had to cut away all the front suspension and shock towers,reinforce the framerails with 2x4 steel and add a mustang stlye suspension with airride. You'll probably take a couple hundred lbs off the front end too. I'm not giong to say you could do it for less than 3 grand though. Hank
Thank you for the links to the stroker kits.:whacked: That cammer engine sure looks sweet! Like pops said we did the measurements and a SBF would fit with room to spare (no header clearance issues at all) You can get a lot of torque out of a SBF for sure. Every Lincoln towncar or Ford Full size I have owned from the 80's had one and they weighed ever bit as much as this t bird. They were only 180 hp too! My t scoots with the 85 roller engine in it (obviously weighs much less) The internet sites list my car at approx. 4500 pounds with a 390 setup. Dual quads on a built 302 would move that tbird respectfully. I am leaning towards the 390 though. Theres something to be said for a big block:cool: Heres a pic of the 302 in my t during the build. This would not look bad either. Easy to find parts for! P.S. NO SBC POPS! NOT IN A TBIRD! love a sbc though!
Well, if you wanted to make a genuinely cool ride you'd use one of these;
Bob what is that beast?
This may not be the best choice for a prime mover in this particular project, but it just goes to show what you can do with a 302 Ford and is interesting in the fact that this is an actual dyno build.
Wedge heads, pocket ported, 2.02/1.600
Flow as follows:
0.200" 140/109
0.300" 191/143
0.400" 234/165
0.500" 257/177
0.550" 261/177
9.0:1 static compression ratio
1000 CFM
Paxton Novi 2000 centrifugal blower, 10 psi
Comp XE274H cam 0.520"/0.523", 274*/286*, 106* ICL, 114* ECL, 110 LSA
rpm tq hp
2000 475 180
2500 515 245
3000 555 315
3500 605 405
4000 630 480
4500 625 535
5000 615 585
5500 590 615
6000 565 650
6500 540 660
7000 500 660
This test was done with a flat tappet hydraulic cam. The cam card says this cam signs off at 6000, but that's with natural aspiration. With 10 pounds of boost and a little more valve spring on a roller tappet grind with the same valve events should pull to 7000 in my opinion.
Quote:
Originally Posted by stovens
Just a nice little 4.6 mod motor,..........................with a few modifications by Karkraft.:)
Don if you do decide to go with a 390-428 build check out Keith Craft's prices on stroker kits. He been posting some really good prices ($1495) on his stroker assys in the classifieds at www.fordfe.com Also keep an eye there for a block or good core engine. I agree with the guys on the stock exhaust manifolds. Might be worth it to cut back the shock towers to get some good headers in there. 460 is a nice option too and bang for buck you'll get more than a FE. Lots of good choices. Prices are pretty reasonable and coming down a bit overall. Looks like a fun project too!!!
Good luck,
Glenn.
We did a quick eyeball on the engine room one night, he has about 27 inches between the towers. Don is kind of leaning toward finding a rebuildable 390 or maybe a 428 for this one. We have never played with either engine, so we know zero about them, but it looks like that will change as we do more research.
I think the 4.6 engine would make an interesting swap, and Don has a little experience with them because of the 03 Mach I he owned. I would imagine there are enough of these in wrecking yards now with AOD's behind them that one with low miles could be picked up reasonably. I bet there are harness kits to do the street rod thing with them too so you could run the fuel injection and eliminate a lot of the extra pollution stuff like cats, sensors, etc that wouldn't be needed. Dan is close to buying a Mustang GT, so we would have an engine room to measure for width, length, and to see what would be in the way.
In any event, this is one that he will be taking his time on. He has mentioned that the T bucket build wasn't as much fun as it could have been because of the short period of time we took to build it..........every night was a rush to get things done, and it really wore all of us out. This one is going to be his plaything, something he can do at a leisurely pace.
I think he is like Dan and I too in another respect, we are tired of spending money on our projects and need a little break. Right now neither of us have any desire to be doing anything on our rods, but that will change after we lick our wounds a little. We are all in that little valley you sometimes hit in a project where you just want to go off and fish or play golf or something.......anything at all except turn one more bolt on your car.
Don
I hear ya Don. Body work was slow and frustrating this summer. It was nice to let the truck sit for a few weeks and go on a nice hot rod free vacation. Just getting my second wind now. I also like the slow and enjoy approach. Fortunately my/or not my budget sort of dictates my progress. It's great you guys have eachother for support and also to entertain us with your excellent builds. Looking fowartd to seeing this bird fly again.:)
Hello all,
Sorry no replys this week as I have been swamped with work (No work, no Tbird) I found on Craigslist a 68 390 out of a galaxy for $200. I went and picked it up Monday night. He threw in a stock 4 barrel intake too. (weighs about 300 pounds!) Engine spins freely. Could not beat the price even if I don't use it. (Pictures below) How can I verify the year and CID of this beast?(I forgot how big these engines are, GEEZ) Any info would be great!
That 302 build looks like a screamer! Really gets the wheels turning in my head for sure. There is no way that combo would not make a great engine for the Bird to be sure. hmm....
I love the 4.6 Ford Mod motors. As dad said I had a 2003 Mach1 Mustang with the 4.6L DOHC engine (AWESOME KAR KRAFT PICS BY THE WAY, I want to put the blown version of that engine in a Model A sedan project I have dreamt up in my head someday) Same Kar Kraft Companies that built the Boss 429 Mustangs in the late 60's. My Mach one was a screamer right off the show room floor.
Pops is right about being "tired" a bit from spending $$$ on cars. I enjoy going to the shop and even just sitting on a stool staring at the next step on the T Bird (firing up the T every once in a while to hear the rumpy rump:whacked: )
Let me know your thoughts on the 390 I found. Thanks for all the input! Don Jr
Hey Glenn, Thanks for the FE engine Weblink and info. Very helpful! Don Jr
Hey Don, sounds like you might have tackled the engine ID for this one, if not here is a goood link http://www.fordification.com/engineIDtags.htm
and here http://www.fordification.com/engineID.htm
The block should be stamped with a number like C8 C= 1960's 8= the specific year of the 1960's in this case 1968.
and you should be able to see the block casting # on the side as shown herehttp://www.aacncclub.com/FORD_BLOCK_CASTING.html#390fordblock
Those are a fairly light big block if you get an aluminum intake for it..
More engine I.D. info which if you check your block should state C8AE
The breakdown of casting number C8OE-9430-D is easy using the charts below:
C = Decade of 1960
8 = Year of the decade (8th year of 1960), 1968
O = Fairlane Car line / Manufacture code
E = Engine engineering department
9430 = Basic number for an exhaust manifold
N = Design change
Casting Number Breakdown Charts
Decade of Manufacture:
A = 1940
B = 1950
C = 1960
D = 1970
E = 1980
Year of Decade
The year of the decade is determined by adding a number (0-9) to the letter of
the decade. Example: C6 would be 1966, D0 would be 1970, D1 would be 1971.
Car Line/ Manufacture Codes
A = Galaxie
D = Falcon (60-69)
F = Outside USA, Trans Am racing
G = Comet / Montego
J = Industrial
M = Mercury
O = Fairlane / Torino
P = Autolite / Motorcraft
R = Rotunda
S = Thunderbird
T = Truck
V = Lincoln (61 - current)
Z = Mustang
Engineering Departments
A = Chassis
B = Body
E = Engine
F = Engine accessories
J = Autolite (67-72)
P = Automatic transmission
R = Manual transmission
W = Axle
X = Muscle parts program
Y = Lincoln / Mercury service parts
Z = Ford service parts
Basic Number
These identify the part, such as 6090 being a cylinder head or 9430 being an
exhaust manifold.
Design Change
A Basic part is made to fit many applications. Example:
DOZZ-7528-C is a clutch bar for a 390/428
DOZZ-7528-D is a clutch bar for a 351 W
DOZZ-7529-E is a clutch bar for a 302 Boss
Reading Casting Dates
Casting dates:
Casting dates show the exact day, month and year a certain part was made or
cast. The typical casting date looks like "6M08".
Breaking down a casting date:
6 = The year of the decade. "6" for 1976.
M = The letter of the month. (December)
08 = The day of the month. (8th)
First year month codes:
ABCDEFGHIJKLM
JanFebMarAprMayJunJulAugN/ASepOctNovDec
Second year month codes:
NOPQRSTUVWXYZ
JanN/AFebMarAprMayJunJulAugSepOctNovDec
How do casting numbers appear?
Most casting numbers are stamped into the part itself, other have the number
molded on the part. Some casting numbers can be ink stamped while others are
printed on paper, which is then wraped around the part.
FE Casting Numbers
Blocks (C1AE8015C)
390 cid
C1AE-CC1AE-GC1AE-VC2AE-BC
C2AE-BEC2AE-BRC2AE-BSC2SE
C3SE-AC3AE-KYC3ME-BC3AE-AY
C4AE-DC4AE-FC5AE-AC5AE-B
C6MEC6ME-AC8AE-AC8AE-C
C8AE-ED3TE-1D3TE-ACD3TE-HA
D4TE-ACD7TE-BA
Thank you for the info! Will get on those date codes as soon as I can get over to the shop this weekend. That darn intake manifold weighs a ton! Need to lighten it up somehow. Aluminum intake, tubular headers, weight watchers:3dSMILE:
Thanks Don, just what we needed............another 700 pound chunk of steel sitting in the shop.:rolleyes: :LOL: The old saying "10 pounds of something in a 5 pound bag" comes to mind. Who needs room to actually work on your projects anyway? :HMMM: :D
Actually, he got a good deal and it was right here in our area. Saturday we are going to tear into it and see what the innards look like. If it looks ok we can get it into the machine shop to get it tanked and machined. We have a super good machine shop locally, and the owner is a Ford fanatic (has an original GT40 and a few Cobras) so he can do his usual good work on it, if it is worth doing.
I was telling Don the story of when I worked at a Ford dealership in 1964, as a lot car wash guy. One day they told me to go get a 1963 T Bird that we had on the lot. Pretty little car, yellow, black vinyl top, real wire wheels, etc. When I turned the key it literally roared to life, so I shut it off and cranked it again. I could tell there was something under the hood. When I took it around the building to wash it I popped the hood. It had an all chromed 406 Ford tripower engine in it..........and I mean ALL CHROME, every bracket, bolt, etc. Turns out it was a Ford Caravan show car, and the dealer ended up with it at the end of the model year. They wanted $ 1800 for it, and I tried every way in the world to come up with the money, but as a lot boy I made like $ 30 a week. :mad: I've always wondered what happened to that car.
Don
Your back will thank you for getting rid of the cast iron intake for anything aluminum if you ever have to pull the intake in the car. :3dSMILE:
I used to pull them by hand when I had too, but anymore if I have to remove one of those cast iron monsters in car, the cherry picker does the work.
A couple of other things comes to mind aobut these old birds.....
It seems like they take kind of an odd ball power steering pump and bracket, and I'm not sure of there is enough room fro the newer style setup in the engine bay.
Here is a link for a PS bracket just in case (price seems pretty good)
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1963-...mZ120294001546
The pump itself looks something like this.
Mike, Thank you for the link on the pump and bracket:)
I agree that intake is way too heavy! Aluminum it is for me! I did get the original power steering pump with the car so if the 68 unit will not fit I have the correct one. I heard the 65 and up block are different in regards to the alternator mount is cast into the block on the passenger side (vs what I do not know prior to 65)
I think a test fit of this engine is going to be in the works soon to see where we stand with clearance, brackets, etc.
The 64 and back had a generator mounted at the bottom on the right side as I recall. I remember some of the 63s having a remote reservoir for the power steering mounted on the fenderwell..Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Blue
Here you go Don, I ran into this on the 64 Ford I'm building. Page 2 shows what I did to use the later alternator on an early block.
http://www.clubhotrod.com/forums/showthread.php?t=16968
Mike,
Thanks for the shots of the alternator. and I love the car:D I would guess that car is completed now correct? What kind of Plymouth did you build?
Love the Thunderbird Tri Power set up!
Question for you. The Thunderbird engine sits level in my car (all 61-63 from what I am told). Some pictures show a "thunderbird specific" spacer on 4 barrel cars so the carb sits on an angle instead of flat. Your Tripower set up has all carbs sitting at the same level correct? (Not the back carb sitting higher than the middle and the front carb)
I have seen many tripower set ups for the 390 online, but they have staggered heights on the carbs.
I guess the issue becomes if you install a "non Tbird" Tripower in my car the rear carb would sit higher than the middle, then front etc. Correct? Also the underhood clearance is tight between the hood and the carbs on tbirds (the reason for the carbs all being at the same level) Hope I did not confuse with my questions. Don Jr.
Well the 64 has been basically a "filler" project that I work on when I hit a stopping point on other projects (like waiting on stuff from the body shop etc.
It's pretty much in the same shape as it shows in the last post I made to the build thread. As my next major project is building a new shop over the next year or so (and currently that is where all the money is going). It will probably come back into the shop for a while after I get back from vacation at the end of the month however. I have all the parts to do the brakes including a front disc conversion, so it's something I can do without sending any money. I do fire it up and move it occasionally, but it's not a lot of fun when I only have the emergency brake :eek:
The Plymouth I built was my 57 Plaza. I stuffed and old Hemi with Tri-Power and a 4 speed in it to drive to Tulsa to see them dig up the Buried Plymouth last year. You might recognize the hood scoop on it (hint…. it came off the same car your working on).
As far as the Tri-Power intakes go, the 61-63 Birds had the engine sitting fairly level (but they still use the spacer to finish leveling the carb on the single 4BBL versions. The Tri-Power intakes sit level with all the carbs at the same height. They are also a VERY low rise style in order to have sufficient air cleaner clearance (as it is the air cleaner actually sits up in the hood scoop.
On the full size cars like my 64 the engine actually tilts back at a pretty good angle (if you look closely at some of the pictures in the other post you can actually see this). The Tri-Power intakes for these cars were a high-rise version and the height of the carbs was higher in the rear than the front plus the bases were also slightly angle milled (if memory serves correctly). Basically even though the engine was not level on the full size cars the carbs and air cleaner gave the illusion that it was. A T Bird tri-power can be used on the full size cars (the floats may have to be adjusted down a bit) but the full size car version will not allow the hood to close if used on a Bird.
That Plymouth is FABULOUS.....
Coincidently, Christine was on TV tonight............one of my favorite movies of all time. :D :D
Don
Da Dana na na bomp Bad to the bone.....:cool:Quote:
Originally Posted by Itoldyouso
Is that Plymouth the same year Vic Morrow drove as a bad cop in the
movie California Kid with Martin Sheen.
Kurt
Thanks for the info on the carb set ups. Much appreciated. LOVE your Plymouth. What a neat combo having the Hemi in it with a stick! That was a 57 in the California Kid movie. (Pic Below) I know from reading your thread that you were not building a "Christine" clone, but that red and white look fabulous! That Thunderbird scoop looks right at home there, absolutely like it grew there. Awesome car.
Today Don and I started to disassemble the 390 engine he bought. Supposedly, it came from a '68 Galaxy, and when we got inside it there was quite a bit of sludge, but only marginal wear on the cylinder walls. We had to wrap up early because he had to go to play tonight, so we didn't get it down all the way. We did pull one rod cap and one main cap, and the bearings and crank journals look turnable. No scoring on at least those two.
As he and I have mentioned, we know zero about FE Ford motors, never played with one at all, so we are starting to gather information and learn. One thing that puzzled us was the lack of engine numbers, and also that the sides of the block have ribs and three holes on each side like the crossbolted main cap versions. There are no crossbolted mains, just the beginnings of holes. Maybe Ford puts these on all 390 blocks in anticipation of doing some crossbolted? The ribs are the puzzling part, we thought only HiPo engines had these.
The pistons are pretty flattopped, with only eyebrows for the valves, and are showing signs of detonation. Not bad, but noticeable. I am thinking this one might be the 10.25 to 1 ratio engine because of the flatness and the fact it was pinging evidently. (maybe trying to run on regular grade gas?) It had a two barrel manifold on it, which is also puzzling, in light of flattopped pistons.
Soooooo, we need some of our FE guys to enlighten us on these motors. We bought a Ford Hi Performance manual for these, but it is pretty vague with respect to identifying them. What it tells us we should be looking for numberwise does not show up on our motor...........we see no numbers at all, except for the 352 that all FE motors had, and the DIF for the foundry.
Thanks for any info you guys can give us. We will haul it to the machine shop for the usual stuff, (nothing exotic), like an overbore, line bored, decked, tanked, cam bearings, freeze plugs, etc. It will get a mild cam too, nothing too radical.
Here are some pictures of the ribs I am talking about.
Don
I always liked that on the front of my 428's block when I was running L/sa in AHRA back in 73...It also was an easy sell for street racing...:LOL:
Don Jr,
I have missed this thread some how, how nice to see your project. After watching your roadster being built I'm sure this will turn out very nice also. With the help you have on the side lines it will be a real fun car when finished.
I won't be able to contribute much, I know nothing about the Thunderbirds. But I sure will enjoy watching.
Ken
P.S. Any chance of bringing your brother over from the dark side of forums? :LOL:
Ken
Daffy 427-That "352" is sneaky to be sure! I bet that fooled a few people :)
Ken, I have admired your rides for a while now. Perhaps you know as much about Tbirds as we do then:LOL: Loved your 32 pick up featured in the Oct 2008 Street rodder. Awesome Ride. I noticed you have good taste in shift knobs! (Same one in my T) :) I will try to pry Dan away from the dark side of the force (forum) , but it is tough! Lucky to have them both for backup on all of my projects and they are my best friends (good to have talented friends) Take care, Don Jr.
Hi again Don(s), looks like the decision has been made on the motor. I think you'll find it will move the car just fine, I was always happy with the tired old 390 in the one I had. When I built the replacement FE for my old Bird (the engine that's in the 64 Custom now), I ended up putting an RV style cam in it. From what little bit I've driven the 64 it was definitely the right choice. I do miss not having a lumpy sounding idle, but man the power is great. The FE's are not a real tight winding engine anyway; unless you want to spend some time working over the oiling system a bit.
By the way there is a pretty good FE Forum over at (if you haven't found it already)
http://www.network54.com/Forum/74182/
Have you decided on an intake yet? Remember you'll want to keep it fairly low for the hood clearance (although you can get rid of the spacer which will get you a little more room). Something you might want to keep in mind when you start looking for one is what valve covers you want to run. Personally I really like the way the stock “ThunderBird” script valve covers look when they have been chromed. The potential problem is they do not have a provision for a PVC or oil fill, as both of those are built into the intake (like the early SBCs). Something that might also look good then the engine is done is the long oval air cleaner (like the factory dual quad/tri-power cars ran. I think PAW still sells these in both dual quad and single 4 BBL versions.
A couple of other things I recalled on the Cruso trannys, I don’t know if they were still using them in 63 but in 61 Ford was still using the old style starter with the long shaft and the Bendix on the end that pulled into the flexplate from the back side (like the old flatheads used. Also the trans is also likely a “green dot”. Basically when you put it in Drive, the car starts out in second gear. The number 2 position (noted with a green dot on the shift indicator) is the position you put the selector if you want to actually start in first and shift like a normal transmission.
By the way does you 63 have a swing-away steering column? If not do you want one??? I “think” I still have one from a 63 Bird I parted out several years ago. I’m doing the vacation thing for the next week and a half or so and I’ll check when I get back home if you need it.
I too want to welcome you to the site. I've enjoyed your dad's build on the 3K (or was that 30K lol-been there, done that) and Dan's RPU. Look forward to your 'bird build. Have always had a soft spot for them next to model A's.
I think you will enjoy the the build at a "slower" pace than on your T.
Earl
The transmission had the pull-back starter thru 64 and they didn't change to the modern 1 2 drive shift pattern untill 66...
Yeah, his starter is HUGE. It does look like the old flathead ones, come to think of it.
Don