Is any one building street rods with 4 Bangers now days? Show pictures, want ideas. Gas is too high to play with V-8's any more. Comments welcome. Really want pictures! Please help!! :confused:
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Is any one building street rods with 4 Bangers now days? Show pictures, want ideas. Gas is too high to play with V-8's any more. Comments welcome. Really want pictures! Please help!! :confused:
Yes Sir, my hot rod has 2 four bangers :D
Nothing currently. I have done a couple with the Pontiac Iron Duke 4 bangers, both were Track T's and both were neat little cars!!!! Built them many years back, like the time of the last great fuel shortage fiasco, doubt I have pictures anymore though..... One was built with a 1 1/2" X 3" rectangular frame, the other was done up with a 1 5/8" round tube moly frame with an old style Franklin quickie and sprint car style torsion bar suspension..... Would be a lot of fun now with all the goodies available for the four bangers!!!!!
I like the turbocharged Volvo 4 cylinders motors and would like to stick one in our 48 Thames panel--one of these days
hank
Yep. My track T has a 2.5L four-banger and 4-speed tranny out of a 1987 Chevy S-10. I am planning on replacing the TB injection with conventional carburetors. Otherwise, it will be stock for now.:3dSMILE:
Click on my name above and go to the thread on my buildup. I am posting it step by step with lots of pics.:rolleyes:
Ultimately the power comes from fuel combustion so efficiency is the key idea. If I were not involved in a lifelong obsession with a Model-A roadster ('glass replica) I would be looking for a '74-'76 Pinto "frog" and then try to find a Thunderbird turbocharged 2300 Pinto engine, "they" say it is a bolt in! The nice thing about a turbocharger is that you can rig up a dash control for the waste gate and turn it on or off when you want it. Still I would think that more power even from a 4-banger means lower mileage; the power has to come from somewhere and the somewhere is more fuel. Even so as I recall the Pinto mpg was not that good even with natural aspiration. I have tried to "detune" my 350 to some extent for mpg at 250 HP but you know the Buick V6 was heavily touted by Brian Brennen in Rod Action back in the early 1980s as the best all around answer but folks still preferred V8s. The V8 nostalgia lasts until you are gone, for me the ultimate would still be a flathead with finned heads and a beehive oil filter on the firewall but I have tried four flatheads and found all of them to be cracked! Believe it or not someday it will be hard to find a 350 SBC, can you imagine that? Then folks will be looking for Grand National Buick V6 turbo setups! But wait (!) let's find out how Eli Manning likes his new Hybrid Caddy first. Maybe the shocking truth is that in ten years rodders will be running electrics with extra batteries? You have to admit it is easier to set up Nuclear power plants in some remote place and then plug your hybrid into a wall outlet in your garage than to get Congress to give permission to drill in Anwar! All you need then is some sort of secondary small diesel engine to get you home to your wall outlet after your batteries drain down! Let's see what sort of a hybrid Ferrari comes up with, you know some changes are coming but rodders will find a way to soup them up too! Just some ramblin' comments; change is coming!
Don Shillady
Retired SCientist/teen rodder
Nope, but I do have Inline 6's in my cars
Now I can do a inline 6, even a v-6. Dont get me wrong I love a turboed 4 banger but have never had a vehicle light/small enough where I could install to make me happy.
It does take a light car to make the 4 bangers work best, got to keep the weight below 2,000 lbs and avoid big sticky tires in favor of about 6" of tread on the ground. Cutting down on weight and rolling resistance can really make a well-built 4 cylinder car fly...!!!!! The USAC guys used to make those Iron Dukes fly!!!!!! Horsepower to weight, as with any build, has to be your main consideration.Quote:
Originally Posted by BigTruckDriver
id like to take one of those new ecotec superchared 2.0's and put one in the vega!
Yes, the Ecotech engines are a more recent development. My '98 Sunfire body would seem to be very similar to the shell of the Pontiac Ecotech cars but how many were built, ten, twelve? It would seem to me that it would be very unlikely to find any sort of bargain used engine from a wreck. It is probably possible to upgrade a street car to an Ecotech level but at about the cost to build any race car rather than the basic idea of street rodding in taking a street car and souping it up for a reasonable cost and still running it on the street. Dave is right about the HP/weight issue, that is very important, but I learn from his expertise on the idea of keeping the rolling resistance to a minimum with skinny tires. Note that the three-wheel high-mpg cars at http://www.rqriley.com/plans.html weigh around 1400 pounds total. So it still seems better to look for one of those two-door hatch back frog-shaped Pintos and then find a turbo-2300 cc Pinto engine from a T-bird; at least that is a possible path using a junk engine w turbo which can be rebuilt rather than put out many thousands on an Ecotech engine. However, while we are rambling on this thread I would be interested in knowing about availability of Pontiac Ecotech engines since I already have the Sunfire shell which is at present a nice aerodynamic shape with a sewing machine for an engine, hah! Any information on build up of the little Sunfire engine? Again all the reviews are for the Sunfire with the bigger engine but probably 99% of the Sunfires on the road have the smaller engine as does mine, so the trick is how to address souping up the small engine. There was a turbocharged V6 Sunfire but apparently there were problems with oil leaks and bearing failure so maybe it is useless to soup up an even more fragile engine. Some speed equipment is available for the smaller engine but often you encounter comments warning not to turbocharge that block so maybe the whole idea is to just get a better block/engine, but where can one find an Ecotech block for the price of a rebuild? Keep in mind that you can probably build a nice SBC 350 for under $2000 and a Buick V6 rebuild should be similar, how much for an Ecotech engine? Maybe I am not up to date regarding the Ecotech engine, there must be available parts since they raced them but what is the approximate cost? Just some rambling comments.
Don Shillady
Retired Scientist/teen rodder
Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Shillady
I first became aware of these (btw the correct spelling is without the H at the end in case anyone wants to do a search) at SEMA about 4 years ago (I'm not that much into the tuner sort of thing), when walking past a huge display in the enormous GM booth (a somewhat inadequate word for the size of it). I was surprised by the amount of factory hop up stuff as well as the range of pallet engines they had. This caused me to look around some more at the target market................it's pretty big. Lots of these in the tuner world and they crank some very good times at the strip. Of course, from my perspective, what caught my eye first was the twin overhead cam configuration and how much it looked like a mini Offenhauser, which clicks in my brain to track or lakes roadster. Well, for me it's pretty much a mind exercise since I'm already committed to V8s in the builds in process and don't think I'll do any more than that. But that doesn't keep me from maybe inspiring someone else. Somewhere here Robot should pipe up as we've been kicking this around for his roadster the past few months.
Anyway, just a few references to give you an idea on cost comparisons. Yes, factory crate engines are up there with the SBC, especially if you go for the supercharged ones. However, in the rest of the market these things are CHEAP. I've seen them in the local Craigs list with computer and harness & less than 50k miles for anywhere from $100 - 500. Here's one on ebay right now for $250 that hasn't had an opening bid even after 6 days, though it lacks the computer: http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/2-2-E...spagenameZWDVW. In the recent past I've seen several new ones on ebay in a crate for anywhere from $600 - 1000 for the 2.2, and just under $2k for the 2.4 WITH 6 speed manual from a Solstice with less than 10k miles.
Again, I only know this little bit because I'm mildly interested and did some minimal research. Apparently there're some years (generally newer) more desireable than others because of upgrades. I checked with a couple outfits on carburetion and distributor adapting with the idea in mind that a more traditional looking roadster would forego the computer and injection, and they are available, though not widely marketed because of limited appeal. And there are some logistic issues, for instance the distributors I've been told of are driven off the back of one of the cams which would cause firewall issues in a front to back mounting. Anyway, it looks like a rock solid, good hp potential, nifty looking engine that's already been around long enough to have a good reliability record, and advanced enough to be around a while longer (unlike the Quad 4 that had a relatively short cycle and some early teething problems).
Just a thought on scary gas prices- Does anybody but a few really drive enough that gas is a big factor in their hobby? If you've already had a V-8 you already have an idea of how much you drive the hobby car so you can figure. In relative terms is it really that big a factor considering all the other things you invest in to complete a car?
http://www.thefedoralounge.com/images/smilies/huh.gif
There are those who probably do drive a lot and many who don't care about the price of gas. Due in part to current gas prices, I don't take my 57 Olds as much as I used to. The Olds is about 4300 lbs powered by a BB 371 with the J2 option, and on a good day (with a tail wind:LOL: )going a flat 55 mph, it will get you 8 MPG on premium fuel. On a bad day, with a headwind, you can expect 6 mpg). So the "old lady" sits when it comes to long trips.Quote:
Just a thought on scary gas prices- Does anybody but a few really drive enough that gas is a big factor in their hobby?
As for using a 4 banger, I would probably look towards one of the GM Eco-Tec engines as found in many Pontiacs, Chevys and Olds. I had a 2003 Olds Alero with the 2.2 Eco-Tec and it was a good engine. They now come supercharged, and can be had in a crate for about $2300 w/o the supercharger. There were a couple of guys running Eco-Tec powered drag cars a couple of years back that were pumping out over 700 hp.:eek: Impressive for such a small motor.
I'm sure you could find a nice 4 banger for a lot less bucks (new or used) but the Eco-Tec has a lot of potential.
nah they made alot
Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Shillady
I guess I lost track of the engine since they first announced the 700 HP version in the Drag-Caravan the first year they came out. My impression from the first drag engines was that they were special for factory-supported racing but I guess after the initial wringout they are now in production. I also have a 2003 Saturn but that seems to be a slightly different engine? Thanks for the link, Bob. What I would be interested in would be a bolt-in upgrade for my '98 Sunfire. It is a nice car but now the 2.2 has 78,000 miles on it so maybe with a little planning, a replacement-upgrade could be justified.
Don Shillady
Retired Scientist/teen rodder
Here is the link to the tuner engine Bob referred to:
ECOtec Drag Engine Specs — GM Tuner Source
1450 HP at over 9000 rpm! Does anybody recall the corresponding numbers for the Offenhauser midget version?
Hey, I just realized my '98 Sunfire is ten years old! You know what, here is a link to a swap for an ECOtec engine!
an independent disney cast portal - ProteinSpill.com » 2004 Pontiac Sunfire Engine Swap
I bookmarked that site!
Don Shillady
Retired Scientist/teen rodder
DAMN,excuse my french......Thats a bad mutha!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Shillady
General Motors showed an awesome 34 Chevy Hot Rod this year at SEMA. It was built by the performance Division to show-off the capabilities of E85 Ethanol. The engine was a 2.4L Turbocharged EcoTec making over 550HP.
I will try to attach pictures.
I already drive a 4 banger, a ACVW trike! ;) When I feel like some rice, I put my wheelie bars on! :D I can hold the front up into 3rd, and thats with the shifter on the left side, with the "H" pattern turned on its side. :eek:
Pat
I guess when you are thinking about 1929 body parts with a 1976 engine it is easy to get out of touch and frankly I assumed the 700 HP Drag Caravan was just factory supported racing but now the new GM cars have an answer to all the Hondas with thiis engine. I missed out on the factory handbook when the Buick V6 came out so I made sure I downloaded all six chapters of this race-prep book for the Ecotec engine. You can get it too by downloading from
ECOtec LSJ Build Book — GM Tuner Source
So the pathetic 2.2 in my '98 Sunfire has been greatly improved with this later engine but I still do not know whether it is difficult to replace the '98 2.2 engine with a later ECOtec engine. I suspect the space is there but as I recall I was turned off by the instructions in a '73 Vega I bought that one could easily replace the oil filter in your driveway by removing the inner fender panel! The removal/installation of this new engine looks to be a lot more difficult than the four bolt removal of a VW 1500 cc engine, but the link I gave in an earlier message shows a replacement from the top of a 2004 2.2 engine so there must be a drop-in-from-the-top way to retrofit an ECOtec engine. After all this, the SBC I have already invested in will probably crank out an easy 250 HP at 4500 rpm so the main difference is the weight difference in the two engines. Then again the older turbocharged Thunderbird 2300 Pinto engines might be cheaper for a Model-A Ford-in-Ford adaptation. This new engine is very interesting but only applies to my '98 Sunfire for me and it is too late in the game to set up my Model-A in terms of a turbocharged engine.
For those inclined to get into ECOtec racing here is another good link:
http://tunersource.gmblogs.com/Racer...mplete-web.pdf
Don Shillady
Retired Scientist/teen rodder
The Volvo was where I was leaning. Mid-'80's are real cheap, with turbochargers. I have a '87 donor car. I was also leaning toward either a speedster or lakes modifided. I was'nt looking for tire fryer, just a daily driver. I build hot rods to drive, not to take-up space in my shop. As far as tires and wheels, I was going to run stock '35 Ford wires, skinny tall tires, fuelQuote:
Originally Posted by TOW'D
mileage.
It is true if you only drive your hot rod once or twice a month, then $3.00+ a gal. is fine, I guess, but for a daily driver you want as many miles per gallon you can get. Ecotec's look neat, but I'm a poor boy that has to do with what I have. I'm not saying bad things about V-8's, I have a SBC, a BBC, and BBF, and SBF engines waiting for future projects. What they don't tell you about ANWAR is the animals live around the pipe-lines, because when the oil comes out of the ground it is boiling hot! It keeps their babies warm, God forbid we should keep the animals warm! And if there is a leak, they'll move somewhere else, Duh. **) **)
I hear you, we each have our own situations so if you already have a turboed VOLVO that is a strong inducement to use it. I guess I had my head in 1929/1976/1998 sand regarding the ECOtec. I ignored them after they first came out as the 700 HP Hot Rod Drag Caravan but now they seem to have made it to large scale production street status. Thus my only interest is in maybe figuring out an upgrade replacement for my '98 Sunfire. There sure were a lot of the 2.2L 115 HP I4 Sunfires and Cavalier J-Body cars. Somebody out there must be figuring out how to put a "mild" 205 HP supercharged ECOtec engine into an earlier J-body car, although the convertible model I have weighs about 2900 pounds and so is not light, just small. Anybody out there know of a J-body car with an ECOtec transplant?
Hey, so far nobody mentioned a Riley OHV for a Model-A/B/C block, hah! How about a CRAGAR? The SBC 350 may someday be just as rare as a Riley or a CRAGAR but just for discussion is there any midget racer out there who remembers the HP for the Offenhauser INDY 4-bangers or even the Frontenac OHV conversion for the T-block? It looks to me that there are a lot of similarities between the Offy and the current ECOtec, but maybe this thread should just revert to TinLizard's build up with lots of pictures.
Don Shillady
Retired Scientist/teen rodder
Now this right here is a sweet lookin' ride!
http://www.clubhotrod.com/forums/att...otrod_eng3.jpg
Very cool!
Cool car! :)
But, I'm anti E85, I think it's going to cost alot of us working class money, and help nothing! If it has to do with corn, we're not going to be able to afford it! :( The small breweries already been told they won't be able to get hops to make their beer with, because their going to plant corn to sell to make E85, milk & eggs already started to go up.
But the car looks nice. :HMMM:
Pat
the best 4 banger i had was my winter beater a 1980 front wheel drive olds omega with a 2.5 iron duke an 4spd. i beat the piss out it and it kept on ticking i hated it cause it was so ugly but if you guys only knew the abuse i did to it you'd be amazed i bought it for $250.00 and sold it for $80.00 and it drove away not towed a kid bought it from me for an enduro race. the car was very reliable an never left me stranded i wish i could say the same for my other vehicles that look nicer and are newer lol.
i agree and its light enough to drop in a 4 banger plus added power of a turbo NICE :eek:Quote:
Originally Posted by YNOT
this is my fiero i love to drive this car. it has the 2.5L 4 banger it wont snap your neck on take off but since i put the line lock on the front brakes it does killer burn outs. and on the e-way i get 42-43 mpg and 35mpg in town.
wow i cant wait for spring so i can get it back on the road
http://img132.imageshack.us/img132/5480/img1118is0.jpg
i do have a old duke im trying to find the right car for. its a stroked 2.5L runs ford pistons, gm 250-6 rods, boat head w/ 202 160 valves,:eek: custom 4 barrel intake. id like to find a short r.e.d. for this motor