Looking to build an iconic 32 Hi Boy

Hi! newbie here.
Been into antique british roadsters and older Porsche's for some time now, (Problably restored my first one before many of you were born :))

As a last "hurrah", I want to build a Street/Hot Rod from the ground up. Will have some help from my grown sons and my youngest daughter (a Car Nut like me)...

Was thinking about building a 32 Hi Boy, 350/350 with 9" Ford & Nova box... but trying to keep it as retro looking (circa mid-50's) as practical... black primer finish, indian blanket bench seat, etc. Like to participate in a show now and again, but mostly just to cruise in & tinker with and then leave to my youngest daughter..

My concern is that this may be too overdone and will have no resale value. should she ever want to sell it.. Also, would it be more appropriate to use a Ford Flat Head? Metal body or glass? WOuld like as many opinions as possible & will check back on this link often...

Any comments would be appreciated... planning on starting in mid May, so doing my homework now..

Thanks!

Bart in Florida

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Originally posted by btsave

My concern is that this may be too overdone and will have no resale value. should she ever want to sell it..

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With flat paint and indian blanket hides it would hardly be "overdone". Unless you plan on building a real "hack mobile" you're going to be in it more than you can sell it for..............unless a whole lotta years go by with a rising market. So building it just for the enjoyment sake is your best rationale. Richard's suggestion of a steel body makes sense in a few ways. If you (or daughter) have to sell, it'll bring more money. Even when you consider that a steel body will cost at least twice what a glass one does, the resale runs typically double that difference better. And as time goes by, the bigger percentage of people attracted to this kind of car will diminish. We're in the middle of the zenith of popularity for this kind of hot rod, but as the baby boomers age and die the market will shift. Those that will be interested down the road will have their choice, and will likely pay a premium for steel, even though whichever they buy, oversupply will drive down the whole market. And steel bodies are a more "stable" platform. Fiberglass never really stops moving. Sitting in your garage (where you built it) it can look just fine, park it out in the sun/heat for a few hours and shapes change. Door gaps move, sand scratches show up, and a host of other little annoying niglets appear. Again, if it's just for fun bashin' around, and you're not too compulsive, this isn't much of an issue. I've had both glass and steel cars, so I have no particular bias (as you'll learn there is in the hobby).

Power plant selection is similar. You'll find that there is a segment of people who whine about "Chevy engine in a Ford", or "Chev engines are sooooooooo cookie cutter", or ............well you get the point. So they want to be "different", and put in a flathead. Walk around any gathering today and you learn pretty quickly that flatheads ain't so "different" anymore.................it's 10 years too late for that! Different would be a Packard flathead straight 8. For a late fifties style a Chev V8 is totally appropriate. Almost from the get go in '55, hot rodders were making the switch to the Chev small block. Put some period looking pieces on it and it looks very era appropriate. The other engines are neat too.............Olds, Buick, Cad, any Hemi, and, if you're a little whacky, the Y block Ford. The dressed out Chev could easily be done for around $3k (modest rebuild), the others START at double that for anything close to comparable.

After that, the best advice is figure out your theme...........and stick with it. You mentioned Nova steering box, you probably meant Vega...............Nova boxes are way too big, and don't adapt well to a '32. Even though those (vega) weren't available in the '50's they work so well that that's one concession that many will make..............except the most hardcore. What really looks out of place though is four bars on the front instead of split wishbones or hairpins. Brakes are another point of contention on a "nostalgia period" car. While most like the safety and effectiveness of discs, they look out of place on a '50's style. The cars are light enough that GOOD drum brakes can be very effective, but the old Ford style (pre-49) are cantankerous and marginal (and another concession often made is a two chamber master cylinder, regardless of brake type). There are kits with self energizing drum brakes available, along with a still decent supply of e.g. Buick finned drums, that look and work well. And there are kits made to disguise disc brakes to look like Buick finned drums and backing plates. So again, lots of choices.

I could exceed the reply limit of 10k characters per response real easily on this subject, so here's a wrap up. Spend some time doing first hand research (yeah, this is a start). Read lots of magazines, look at lots of pictures, go to events (easier because of the weather in your area) and ask lots of questions. If you're any kind of observant you'll start to notice what themes there are to choose from. And just another hint, there are mixed themes that "work" as well as mixed themes that don't. Soon you'll zero in on what makes you look twice...............that's what you build. If you want to do some creative stuff (which certainly isn't flat black and indian blankets) just try to keep it in "theme". For instance, use something different for a dash panel. Mid '30's Mopars had some very nice looking units, and they can be refurbished without too much cost/effort. And/Or adapt an unusual steering wheel. Anyway, you get the idea. Play with it a little, it's fun. And one more thought on "themes". The "nostalgia" theme has been playing out for about a dozen years, so we're due for another "shift" in the not too distant future as it's probably at it's peak right about now. If you think you're going to be around long enough, or your daughter will keep the car for some time to come, make the build "flexible" enough to adapt up to changing tastes down the road.

Gotta ask. Is your town name an adaptation to play to the demographic of some of the retirees that head to Fl?:p ;)

Flatheads . . . .great if you re-work the seals and oil system.
And you do not want to outrun a small block.
But hey they look great.
:)

Bob Parmenter---an excellent and well thought out response. I agree with you 100%. The demographics of street rodding is what is currently driving things. When the last of the boomers die, the market by and large will pass with them.

Bob.
"With flat paint and indian blanket hides it would hardly be "overdone". I guess I meant that too many people may have taken this approach and that I would be just building a cookie cutter car which would be considered to "ho-hum" . Loxahatchee is a Seminole Indian word describing the "river of turtles” now called the Loxahatchee River. Probably a good name for a slow moving So. Florida town built around the Arthur R. Marshall Loxahatchee National Wildlife Refuge, the last northernmost portion of the Florida Everglades, west of PGA National. Community dredged out of this river's slough.

I see your points about the chevy & vega box (yes, it was a slip saying Nova). When you speak about flexiblity in design, and that the '50s rod look is at an apex, a couple of questions come to mind. Is the '50's look flexible enough to be "modernized" as needed? What, in your opinions, is the next "craze" & is it affordable for a first time build?

Also, back to steel vs glass, liveing in Florida, is glass movement a major concern based upon temperature? Also, does the steel weight cause a dominoe effect creating a heavy build requirement? Usage will be mostly enjoyment, cruising and maybe a Hot Rod show or two.

No to get morbid, but with my time here getting shorter, I want to do one last car build, something I haven't done yet, and involve my 4 children (29, 25, 20, & 10) so they can have one last memory to share and so that they can remember me when they look at what we built together, years from now. No particular resale planned, but the logical businessman in me always looks at cost vs value.:)

brian, I'm not certain that the hot rod movement will die out any time soon... I see my future son-in-law (20ish) & his friends pimping out Hondas and PT Cruisers & they show strong interest in older rods as a more "extreme" expression of a pimped car... my 10 yr old daughter sees the older rods and immediately is attracted to them... a real "car gal", but brought up on Jags, MG's, mini's & POrsches... so there is still hope. IMHO. Bart

I think if you can find it or afford it go steel. Most people I know think higher of steel bodied cars. If you plan on highly modifying it though fiberglass would be much easier.

Re: "overdone", yeah, it's really hard not to be doing something that isn't "cookie cutter" to one degree or another. Just by starting with a '32 roadster you box yourself in. Not saying that's necessarily a bad thing...............it just is what it is. It would normally take some long cash, a lot of time, and some special design talent to create something that's genuinely "different", and not trashy at the same time.

Not wanting to pry or contribute to morbidity, if you need to build a legacy car for your children you should build something that reflects who you are in their eyes..................and in reality, anything you do that brings you and them joy will get that done. And if you're facing a relatively limited time line, you don't want to get too complex.

The answer to your flexibility question would still require you to get some familiarity with the "era" representations out there. But I'll give it a shot. What some people build today that they believe is representative of the '40's/'50's, often falling in the catagory of "rat rod", are cartoon characterizations of reality. Yeah, there were some poorly built junk mobiles in the day, but there were also some very well constructed cars. It all depended on the builder's talent, vision, and to a degree, wallet, as well as his commitment to a quality standard. Imagine that! Not really too different than today. There's a fine line between someone who replicates the "old" look, but with good build standards, and someone who thinks that taking a counter-culture, "rebellion" mentality, against "slick" rods, gives them a license to build a piece of junk.

A car that can move from era to era in appearance with pretty much a wheel/tire change, and maybe some other "cosmetics" is the kind of versatile car I'm referring to. As an example in the other way, 10-15 years ago folks were building to the end of a trend that entailed pastel paints and sometimes slashy graphics. As the "trends" shifted these folks were caught with a tightly defined style. Some tried to make a shift by putting on red wheels and wide whites, but they still had the sculpted tweed interior and the fucia paint. Looked too forced. Now, that versatility usually means the basic colors are your choice; black, red, maroon, darker shades of blue, that sort of thing. No wild graphics that are pretty '80's, no black fenders on tan bodies which are very '70's, just the "basics". On the flip of that is the argument that that style of car is "boring". My contention would be that tight workmanship will always be appreciated, and that standards of design become standards because they have the widest appeal. So you pick your audience, and you please yourself. This whole thing is about building something that is meaningful to you, something that fulfulls a dream, or stimulates pleasant recollections of real or imagined days gone by. Another example would be a car I "revised" a few years back. It had been built in the early '80's, but to the resto rod style of the '70's (another guy who caught the end of a trend). It had knock off wire wheels, sat too high (by recent standards) and was two tone. The upholstery was a nice leather in a semi stock pattern, the paint was still good, and the build quality overall was very good. I did some detailing on the engine, changed the look with some "period pieces. I lowered it, changed the wheels and tires, and painted the fenders and such to match the main body section. Viola! I had a ride that fit right in with the swing to "nostalgia".

As for my predicting the next "big thing", I'm not sure I have that crystal ball. In 1990 I started building a car with late '50's early '60's themes. It would be easy to say I was clarvoyant and anticipated where we've come to today, but in reality, though at the time it was off pace for then current themes, I just felt the need to do something like I would have liked to have built in 1962 if I'd had the experience and wallet I had gained, but with stuff that was available then. Turns out I wasn't very unique in that notion as there are probably 10,000 cars out there like that built in the last 15 years. A lot of us "boomers" were having the same "epiphany". What's next? Ain't got no clue! If history really does repeat itself the next recycle should be the restorod. Basically an old car with all the stock trim pieces, stock looking upholstery, and two tone paint in muted earth tones. After all, that's what followed in the '70's after the style of car that's "in" now cycled through. (Remember, you read it first here!;) ) The motivator would likely be guys who did rods in the '70's "reviving" the old car that got them going in the first place. But who really knows.

As for the steel body heavier, that's not really an issue. In fact, some glass bodies outweigh the steel ones. There's really no heavier build requirement for steel. If anything, glass would need a more rigid platform to avoid stress cracking (which is not really possible in a roadster).

As for the market shrinking..................don't bet against it. As an example, the recent Barrett-Jackson auction shows what happens. In it's early days they featured a lot of early (pre-WWII) cars, with the emphasis on luxury. Over time they have shifted to a heavy emphasis on muscle and rods. Why? Because that's where the money is. The "boomers" are in their financial prime, and the older guys who liked the stuff that was hot auction material 20 years ago are ancient or dead. Now, that's not to say that high quality pieces from that time aren't still of interest to some collectors. But their numbers have reduced significantly. Today, the million dollar Duesenberg is more likely to be bought by a museum for perpetuity, rather than the well-to-do hobbyist who remembers seeing that lovely, long, luxobarge cruising down his home town's main street when he was delivering his newspapers. Quality cars will probably always have some kind of enthusiast. But the ordinary ones (think stock Model T for instance) will have lost their audience. There's no reason to believe that what's hot in rodding today will defy the laws of supply and demand. What's hot today is what appeals to "boomers" because it recalls their youth. Sure, there will be a few younger folks who will be interested in what their dad liked and will seek out those cars, but because there will be far fewer of them they'll have the luxury of choice. They'll go for the best piece they can afford, and since there'll be an oversupply, the poorer quality stuff will have to be sold by the widow/estate at a serious discount. Today's young people will be nostalgic for what was current in their youth. I know it's hard to imagine that someone 20-30 years from now will be excited to find a Honda Accord packed away in a garage with only 25000 miles on the odo, but it will happen. Just like some old timers find it hard to imagine a Baracuda convertible selling for $3 million today. Hemi? What's a Hemi?:eek:

BTW, we're not talking in the next 5-10 years. It'll probably take a bit longer, more like 20 or so. Again, looking at history, we boomers will fade from the scene when we hit our 70's. As more of us pass, the "oversupply" of our kind of cars will gradually increase. With that, the support will gradually decrease. Not over night, gradually. But it will happen.

BT...sounds like you've got what you need. You're building it for you and your family. If it make you and them proud and provides you with quality family time, who cares what hardcore guys think. Its not a restoration. Bob's right. Pick your theme. Pick you budget, and build to please yourself and your family. Make it fun. Make it reliable. Make it a reflection of yourself.

You are right there Richard... The snobbery in the hobby is there... I think there is starting to be a better mix of ages and mindsets at these events and it is probably not as bad as it was a few years ago...

I guess it is a good thing I don't care if the old guys talk to me!!! ;) J/K

Dave Brisco

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Originally posted by techinspector1
One difference with a steel car is that at a show, the old guys will talk to you. I guess they consider a glass car a "kit car".

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(A Fiberglass 32') A kit car!! That should get some guys stirred up! Steel and fiberglass look the same with paint on them the last time I checked! Maybe it is just me!

glass car or steel car , takes the same time to build either one .
call in a glass car a " kit car" is like calling another mans wife fat !!!

Kit cars come from one source and there are instructions in the box.

There are two books you should read. The first is "How To Build a Traditional Ford Hot Rod" by Mike Bishop and Vern Tardel. The second is "How To Build a Bolt Together Hot Rod" or something like that by someone whose name I can not recall. The first will tell you about building a true old time flat head powered hot rod. The second will tell you how to build a modern 1-800 credit card belly button car. Somewhere in between is the car you are thinking about.

In my case I built a late 50s style highboy 32 roadster using a fiberglass body. There are some esthetic problems to using a glass body to build a traditional roadster. Hiden hinges - most glass bodies have them. Not a big deal to me but to the purest a no no. Wescott offers a glass body with stock hinges but the price pushes Brookville's steel repop. Gibbon also offers original hinges and there may be others. Firewall - most glass bodies have flat or recessed firewalls. The originals had ribs. Again, it was no biggie to me but those purests are never satisfied. Wescott and Gibbon are faithful repro. I am not aware of any others. And if you want to run that indian blanket interior glass bodies don't look right without some kind of door and kick panels. I ran mine with a cut down Chevy S10 seat for a year and then I had it trimed out. My body came from Show Me Rod And Custom, a small shop near Branson - Springfield, MO. Price was about half of what you would pay for a Wescott FOB Oregon.

Finish paint is John Deere Blitz Black. Looks traditional and it is cheap - about $25 a gallon. But it is easy to chip. If I were doing it again I would use PPG's Hot Rod Black.

For an engine I used a 350 with late centerbolt heads. Not quite right. If I was going to do it again I would build with pre-86 heads and use an intake with a breather tube. I used a T350. I think a 700R-4 would be better.

For my chassis I came up off my billfold a bit and poped for a SoCal unit. I wanted the buggy spring in back. Shipping to Arkansas was expensive. Objectively speaking, Pete and Jakes and Corn Husker both offer comperable buggy spring chassis and the shipping would have been more reasonable.

I have disc brakes up front and they are out in the open for everyone to see. Brakes are important and discs work best. If you ever see Buick drums on one of my rides they will be the real thing. Same for a quick change rear.

For wheels I am running Wheel Vintique steelies. 15"x6" in front and 15"x8" in back. Rubber is 165SR15 in front and 255/70R15 in back. The fronts look OK but the rears are not quite right. I'm starting to think 245/75R15s on 7" wide rims would be better. But I am most likely going to upgrade to 255/75R15s. Learning can be expensive.

Am I pleased? You bet. Am I done? About 99% The seat needs some padding and I want to revist the engine wiring. And I told you about my rear wheel and tire disatisfaction. I drive it regularly. About 3,000 miles the first year, 2,500 the second, and this season the road miles to the events I plan on attending are something like 3,000.

If you keep the build plan simple you will have a timeless machine. One that a future owner can upgrade without going very far backwards first. That kind of car has enduring value. You may or may not be able to get all of your money back when you sell it but the satisfaction of building your own ride is priceless and the fun and comaradery that comes with being a rod owner is invaluable.

Get those books and start reading.

Hey Bib, now where did you say I could find those instructions again?... :)

Dave Brisco

Dave, Steve, and kenny.........................could this be the Arkansas Mafia?:p :LOL: :LOL:

there is another now , TRAVIS B , he works in my shop also .
watch out bob us rednecks are comming out of the woodwork.