Another One
http://www.rgj.com/apps/pbcs.dll/art...NEWS/100420050
>
Printable View
Another One
http://www.rgj.com/apps/pbcs.dll/art...NEWS/100420050
>
Ahh Ken, All these roadster crash reports are getting depressing! Guess I need to sell my roadster and build "a safe" car like a Corvair or Pinto, just kidding.
Here's "a former" crash update and some GOOD news. I'm guessing it was about two or three years ago you posted some photos on CHR of one of your club member's roadster that was involved in a crash near Long Beach. It was also a "bright yellow" roadster just like the one that crashed going home from the Del Mar GG's show.
So I'm at the Orange Plaza Car Show on Sunday walking around after I get parked looking at all of the nice cars. I start asking this guy questions about his car. And it turns out to be the same car that was involved in the earlier roll over accident. I told him I remembered the photos and said to myself "never paint a roadster YELLOW" after looking at the two crashed yellow cars, we both had a laugh on that one. The car was completely rebuilt and looked beautiful. The car was originally a Brizo built roadster with a Sid Chavers interior so you know it was a top knoch car. Not sure who rebuilt it, but they did a great job and you would never know it was involved in such a serious accident.
At the time of the original crash we all speculated about THE WHY, or reason for the crash. The general concern was because the front axle was torn off the car and we were concerned about the possibility of a part failure since many of us use the same suspension parts. What he told me was another car made a quick lane change into his lane and he swerved to avoid the crash and went off the embankment and rolled over. He was seriously "banged up" but thankfully lived through the accident. The good news was, it was "an accident" and not caused by a part failure in his opinion.
Lets all be safe cruising.
I think one contributing factor as to why we are seeing a "rash" of these is because we rodders are starting to actually drive our cars more. I remember a time not so long ago that you rarely saw a hot rod or custom type car on the roads, but now there seem to be more and more. In addition to driving them MORE, we are also driving them FARTHER than before. How many of us think nothing of jumping in and driving 2-3-400 or more miles to some event?
In essence, our rods are not much more than 4 wheel Harleys and we know how many bikes are involved in wrecks. I have had more than one driver come into my lane because they were too busy staring at my car or some other distraction. Statistically though, I think the number of rods that have a problem are a very small part of the total number that frequent the roads. All we can do is drive sanely, respect the vulnerability of our cars, and keep our eyes open at all times and look for an out if something goes wrong.
I don't think a roll cage or bar is the answer, because as mentioned, if you have even bumped your unhelmeted head on one, you know how that would feel in a rollover. :eek:
Don
John- What a coincidence, his name is Greg. The same guy fixed it I believe, it really came out nice. He says that's what happened :LOL: He really was lucky, no seat belt, got thrown out and landed in a tree.
I wear seat belts all the time no matter what I'm driving, but sometimes I wonder if it would be better to take the chance of being thrown out instead of going over in the car???? I personally think he would of been killed if he were wearing a seat belt. those photo's are still on here.
Don- I agree with you, there are just a whole lot more hot rods out there it's just numbers now as for as accidents go. I drove my roadster today, and got rained on on the way home, but I look in my mirrors more than in front of me. I have seen what one of these things looks like when it gets rear ended, it ain't pretty. That's why we need lots of horsepower, to drive away from a possible accident and great brakes if we can't. :D
Ken
Think I would much rather bang my head on a roll bar than the ground
I don't know if you would consider this relevant to that, but i was knock unconscious in my pro stocker from tire shake with my head bouncing around inside a funny car style cage. So to bounce around in a street rod with a seat belt on with your unprotected head hitting a roll bar, I don't know, every accident is different. I think if you have the perfect wreck under the perfect circumstances you could live under any situation. But unfortunately that isn't the case, most of the timeQuote:
Originally Posted by 61bone
Ken
Ken,Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Thurm
Still not second guessing the cars build.The thing is a bolt in cage running in the 8's??.I am asking about it and it cert with NHRA or IHRA???.I wouldn't think that would pass.
We all got to remember a time's factor of the wt of the car in a rollover.The first roll being the worse until the car slows down.
In all the yrs of racing very early on I have only been on my head once.Just like it is reported from many people,I remember the seconds before the car hit in the first roll and how quiet it seemed thinking this is going to hurt.Then two more rolls and I am told there where 7 before landing upright.It took 5yrs for that recall to come back to me.My head got banged up pretty good even wearing a approved helmet in the car's cage.So I do agree you could get killed by a cage without a helmet on the street.Also in open race cars there are arm restraints to keep them in the car and in a street car that wouldn't make sense.Here it seems his arm injuries are related to that factor.
All and all it's good to hear he is doing better and my concern would be how much of his arm's use is he going to get back.I am going to still pray for him for a full recovery and I hope for him that he doesn't remember much about it for awhile allowing him to heal first.
The Nevada Highway Patrol investigated consecutive-day fatality crashes that killed a 44-year-old Minnesota woman Sunday.
Tracy Fons, 44, of Eden Prairie, Minn., was a passenger Sunday in a 1932 Ford Roadster convertible driven by Thomas Taxon, 64, of Reno, when 83-year-old Bernice Rodgers, 83, turned in front of them to access a South Virginia Street casino parking lot.
Fons died at the scene. Rodgers, her husband and passenger, Harry Rodgers, 84, and Taxon were taken to Renown Regional Medical Center for treatment. Bernice Rodgers and Taxon were listed in fair condition Monday, said Trooper Chuck Allen, while the condition of Harry Rodgers was not known.
The crash occurred about 4:15 p.m. Sun., in front of the Tamarack Casino.
Allen said Bernice Rodgers was driving a 1998 Mercury Tracer north on Virginia Street when she turned left in front of Taxon, who had been heading south on Virginia Street. She was turning into the casino parking lot when Taxon tried to avoid the collision, and instead struck the right side of the Mercury.
Both Taxon and Fons were wearing lap belts in the antique roadster.
http://cmsimg.rgj.com/apps/pbcsi.dll...W=318&Border=0
Wow, that's horrible. They must have really smacked into the old ladies car to do that much damage and also to kill them both. So sorry to hear about this one too. I feel terribly for the victims and the families.
I'm taking mine out for a little drive today and I sure will have these tragedies on my mind as I am out there. As a side note, I sure hope all these recent incidents don't start some legislators thinking hot rods shouldn't be on the roads. We all know how they love to pass laws to justify their existence.
Don
I am thinking seriously about running at least a 6 point cage in my '46 ..... I'll see when I get the seats set up. Mat be more ....
To bad on the Nevada crash.
REGS
Yeah,Don..they dont need the ammunition,but,how many hotrods are involved in smashes,in comparison to regular cars??Quote:
Originally Posted by Itoldyouso
Do we have any follow-up info on this accident? There was another accident this week with exactly the same results. Something broke and the car suddenly turned right, hitting a tree. The driver was very lucky to have escaped with only a brokem leg. The pictures of that car are not clear enough to tell for certain but I suspect the batwing/ sppring perch hanger bolt broke.
I am really frustrated that we are unable to get to the source of these problems.
Here is a picture of the other car.
I agree with your comments on the parts breakage. The thing that really makes you wonder is on a Volks Rod application the front end has just a small fraction of the weight that a V8 powered rod has on the front end. Those front ends are built for V8's, just look at the number of leaves in that spring. Scary breakage.Quote:
Originally Posted by volksrod
You're right John. I just recieved another picture that helps to clarify a little bit but it poses more questions than answers. The owner of the car is supposed to call me by the end of the day. If he does, I will let you guys know what he says.
The older we get, the more sobering this information. When we're young, we think we're bulletproof, then we find out we're not. I've built a 454-powered "A" sedan, an 8.50/175 mph Super Comp car, a high-10's GTO, and my current lowboy. I have confidence in my work, but I'm always thinking about the all those bolts that I tightened and all the welds I made. Did I get them all right? When I take the coupe out of storage in three years (sigh!), every bolt and nut is going to get another going-over.
The worst that ever happened to me was a rear 4-bar bracket on the rear axle of the A-bone that folded up when I hit second gear. It tilted the pinion up quit a bit and skewed the rear axle out of line, but I got it stopped without incident. If that had been third gear and a lot more speed . . . well, I hate to think about it.
I wish the gentleman in the yellow roadster a complete recovery.
unfortunately we buy parts and don't know where they come from. So many venders today sell junk made in China and such and the people in those countries really don't care if we die.
Looks more so an issue with the axle .... it was made by???? All the other pieces look & appear to be intact.
REGS
is that an aluminum axle?????
To me .... based on the area that it broke at it sure looks cast (steel). I might be wrong but I don't see aluminum being that "grainy".
REGS
It looked to be cast aluminum to me too, when i looked at it, the color even looks aluminum
I'm having dinner with him next Friday.
Ken
If this was an aluminum axle---where it is broke could have been caused by a fatique crack from a nick from a jack stand as that is probably exactly where a stand would be placed and also when you mount a beam axle with either split wishbones/4 bars to outside of frame rails vs a single point underneath like the car was designed(1930s) you subject it to a tremendous amount of twisting which would tend to break exactly where this one is broken===
If it is chromed, could hydrogen imbrittlement be a factor?
Don
The right spindle and kingpin are missing (as in completely gone) from the two photo's.
The broken axle could have been "the result" of the crash and possibly not "the cause" if the axle kingpin boss or the spindle broke.
Broken cast steel looks just like the photo when it's freshly broken, but rusts up in a day or two.
If you look at my thread,"One way to total a '32 Roadster" and look at the front axle of that car they are all pretty similar. This car belongs to a fellow club member so I know first hand there were no failures. When the car flipped it's first contact with the ground was the right front wheel and the axle snapped. I don't think this would be a bad product or inferior metal when you consider the weight of a steel '32 roadster several feet off the ground landing on that corner of the car. Just my 2 cents.
Ken
However---the visable evidence of the broken parts COULD of caused the car to flip---
This car appears to have high polished parts including aircraft qual clevises, etc--no room for any movement of parts as with rubber bushed bars--result-every steering or suspension movement puts a tremendous load on the total sum of the assy---failure will occur at the end of the longest unit, weakest point, or a stress risor type nick--
Is this an ALUMINUM axle??? has it ever been on jack stands???
Here's an up-date on the latest accident.
Lonnie, the guy that owns the beautiful Volksrod bug, called the "Firebug" has posted on the Volksrod forum. Here is what he had to say:
Gentlemen, my name is Lonnie Gilbertson, I built and own the Fire Bug. I appreciate and am humbled by the concerns expressed here. I am 65 years old and have been building cars all my life. (check me out at Lonnie's Place.com). I want to share the truth in hopes that I can prevent someone else bearing the grief that befell me. I took crap from my V8 buddies when I started to build my bug, however, I remembered the 1835 in my Dune Buggy I did in the 70's and knew the potential. Being an old Hot Rodder the early Ford straight axle kit by Speedway appealed to me, so I bought a 1975 standard Bug and was on my way. I will be happy to share the build with anyone that needs information. But for now I will skip to taking my 2332 cc 091 bus transaxxle Hot Rod Fire Bug to the Portland Roadster Show. At shows end to the amazement of several people I drove it home. I left the show floor all smiles by the time I got home I was all frowns. The car was un-drivable. To keep the car between the curbs was a major undertaking. In analyzing the problem, I discovered that sitting on the ground I had a normal 1/8" toe in, I could jack the car up at the perch bolts and it wold change to 1/2" toe out. At this point you might think bump steer, however, lifting at the perch bolds induces no suspension movement. The problem was axle flex. I could measure from the frame to the center of the king pin, jack it up to take the weifht off the tire and the king pin would move out 1/8" plus. This on a car that weighs little on the front compared to the V8 this setup should carry. With my experience it did not take long to figure out the steering set-up Speedway said to use would not work. I bought a cross steer rack and pinion and set it up in a traditional Hot Rod style. In an unconventional way I built my own steering arms and hooked everything at the top of the spindle. Thinking I might have created my own problem I bought Speedway dropped steering arms and moved the tie rod to the bottom of the spindle, like it would be stock. The net result was 1/4" tow change instead of 5/8" with the tie rod on top. I called Speedway and was told that I bought an early kit and all their early kits were junk, they have done a re-desigh to correct problems. I told them I had corrected the problems, however, I had trouble with axle flex, they told me to call the Manufacturer, it wasn't their problem. A call to the Manufacturer put me in touch with the owner he was very interested in helping me fix my problem. He suggested different alignment settings. Changing to his suggested settings the car semed to settle down. On Friday evening I test drove the car and had a friend do the same, although it was not perfect it seemed safe. Five O'clock Saturday morning I left my house by 5:10 am the Fire Bug was destroyed. A friend that was following said that it looked like the car dropped on the right front and left the road. From the drivers seat the Bug took a hard right, in trying to steer left nothing happened, I impacted a mail box, an oak tree, and a telephone pole. With cross steering the right front is the master and left the slave. If the right becomes disconnected you have no control of the left. It happened so fast I can't tell the order of events the only facts I know are:(1) it is a 5" drop cast iron axle,(2) The king pin boss on the right front is broken in half. (3) The axle is broken in half 2" inboard of the perch bolt. (4) The heavy damage to the right front wheel is on the inside as if it was turned hard right on impact. (5) I could not bring the car left once it took off right. (6) A friend that was following said it looked like the car dropped to the right before it left the road. I will never! Never! Ever run a cast axle again. On a personal note admit-tingly I am a Sunny Day Driver, however, I do not own Trailer Queens. I hope this helps someone. Thanks for letting me express myself. This is the first time I have ever posted anything to any site. I hope this will get read and not lost. Thank You,
Lonnie
If you would like to read the whole thread you can find it here...http://www.volksrods.com/forum/showthread.php?t=30628
Thank you Lonnie for your help, Walt
I'm with Pops on this one regarding the possibility of hydrogen embrittlement. Though Gilbertson did a reasonably thorough description, he failed to mention anything about the plating process, perhaps he's unaware of the potential problems.
I'd love to see the end grain of the break to see if there is any discoloration to indicate a fracture that was undetected before the failure, or if it were consistent in color indicating a sudden, catastrophic failure. Based on the discription from Gilbertson it sounds a lot like what could happen with hydrogen embrittlement, especially considering how few miles/time of use his discription implies.
Lonnie described a suspicious discoloration at the brake at the king pin boss.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Parmenter
Some shots of Dave's car apart.
Ken
It's good to see the front axle bend that far (about a 90 degree twist) without breaking. Any idea what brand axle was on the car?
Good to see the inner structure photos. They sure provided a good mounting point for the seat and belts, IMO. All of that four link suspension frame was nicely hidden in a normal "highboy looking" package.
Nice car.
John - I don't know, but will find out all the specifics next week end. Our club is meeting his club for a run starting next Thursday threw Sunday. I'll post then.
Ken
Just glad he's o.k. Ken.
Did he ever say what happen. Or did I just not read what happen
Ken-have they found out if he is going to regain full use of his arm yet??.
Glad to hear that "ALL" of these folks are doing well, and I hope they continue to get better. This can be scary stuff....
Had another thought, there is quite a bit of talk of the Axle being cast Aluminum ( now corrected by the owner) But I do have a question. Is there even a Cast Aluminum Axle being made and sold here? I did a search for a Aluminum I Beam axle and found nothing. So does such a critter even exist?
Roland
Yes, there is this one offered by Superbell:
PET1100DFO
Polished Alum-I-Beam
Oval-Drilled I-Beam Axle
$1,195.00
Super Bell Axle Co.
Fully Polished, Drilled, Forged Alum-I-Beam Axle
Completely Computer designed and strength tested, the new Forged Alum-I-Beam axle combines Super Bell's traditional I-beam 'narrow upsweep' with the original 1932 truck (wider style) belly and features a raised "Super Bell" shield on only one side of the beam.
Measuring 46" king pin to king pin centers, the Alum-I-beam is designed for use under the '28-'34 Ford using the '37-'48 Ford spindles. Forged from 7175-T74 aircraft aluminum and "Made in the USA", Super Bell's Alum-I-beam is lighter (9.5 lbs.), stronger (tested in the real world), and better than ever. Originally offered in highlighted or fully polished with a round drilled hole option (1" lightening holes), it's now available with oval drilled hole option too!
Don
That's a very good grade of Aluminum with high fracture toughness as long as you do not get it hot for extended times. This is something often overlooked. Room temperature yield is in the mid 75 ksi range but if you get it to say 350 F for 30-60 mins this drops to low 60 ksi. If you get it over 400 F for even a short time it loses its strength big time, under 20 ksi. You do not want to get a torch anywhere around this stuff and if it is connected close by, say, a bearing that goes out you could severely compromise its strength in that location.
Kitz
I thought someone else would jump in but if the question is really about a "Cast Aluminum Axle" the answer is "No". All aluminum products for load bearing use are forged, which aligns the molecules for strength, as opposed to castings which have a random molecular structure and are thus weak and brittle. Casting is for intricate detail features on decorative items like lawn furniture; or for items that will not see load other than low pressures like intakes, valve covers, etc. Don's listing on the Super Bell axle clearly states "Forged".Quote:
Originally Posted by Hombre259
Haven't seen an update from Walt, and saw these on another forum, so thought I'd put it up. I've only had minor training in reading this sort of break and it would be better with a microscope, but it does look like there is one decent sized occlusion toward the right side of the first photo and a corresponding location on the other side of the break. I'm still leaning toward hydrogen embrittlement. http://s294.photobucket.com/albums/mm108/marklh/Quote:
Originally Posted by volksrod