Wow, scrap steel prices are up!!!

I'll only take issue with one of the things you said Davey, we're not greedy with our use of petroleum. We produce right at 35% of the global economic output (hardly a "plummeting" economy). We only consume somewhere around 20% of the world's petroleum products (pretty damn good productivity in my book, and it means the others are really lagging). The notion we're greedy is an example of more manipulation by the political class.

Barb, I'm not really interested in picking on you, and I don't think you're stupid, but you are a typical echo chamber for oft publicized misconceptions (dare I say lies?). Let me help you with some of the false choices you put up there that you apparently didn't give a second thought to. If I'm effective, perhaps the next time someone tries to pawn one of them off on you you'll see them as being foolish. Choose between food and healthcare? Helloooooo..........if you don't eat you won't need health care. Sounds cruel, I know. But it's only logical. The only reason a silly question like that can fly at all is we're a land of such abundance that we don't worry about where our next meal comes from.

Yes, it's both the cost of petroleum, and the use of grains for ethanol, and there's more to it. It's also competition with the rest of the world that has the same nasty habit we do..........they like to eat. Grains are commodities, just like steel, iron ore, molybdenum, and crude oil. All those commodities are sold on a world market everyday. It's basically an auction, and the more anxious the bidders are the higher they push the price. (that's why your assumption that if we "kept" that tiny amount of domestic product the price would go down is completely wrong) So everyday now we're having to compete "for survival" against others who think they have as much right to live as we do (imagine that). Do we as a citizenry still have the guts to compete, or will we just decline further into our whining abyss and beg the politicians to throw us some crumbs (THAT'S how we would really lose the middle class!). To further add to the price increases is the lowering value of the US dollar. It's dropped some 20% in the last year or so. So in effect, had the dollar remained valued where it had been petroleum would be about 1/5 less today. Now, those politicians you apparently trust so much are working on a farm subsidy bill of something around $128billion...................at a time when farm commodity prices are at an all time high!!!! Yeah, now there's showing real common sense! Where's all the bitching from the populace on that? That seems like REAL gouging to me.

We're hardly in a soup kitchen environment. Fuel prices are painful to adjust to, but our core use of fuel for getting work done, heating our homes, and powering our devices is important enough that we can cope by adjusting other of our spending. Please don't trot out the other oft used guilt trip ploy of the poor family who can't even do that. For the very few of those people who really do exist we have many existing safety nets already in place. For the rest, maybe they need to decide if cable TV or an internet connect, another pair of Nike shoes, or any of the other "nice to have" items in our lives really are more important than getting to work. We haven't had to endure tough times as a nation in so long we've forgotten what it is to have to prioritize.....................we just want it all.............and if we're unable or unwilling to pay for it ourselves, lets demand "the government" do something about it!!!!

You're right Bob, greedy wasn't really the word I wanted.... Maybe I should have used stupid.... Anyway, the folks I'm referring to are the one's driving a 12 mpg SUV or 4 WD crew cab pickup for daily use and commuting...... I guess it's their right to drive what they choose....but it seems ironic that these same people complain the most about the cost of gasoline and diesel!!!!!!!

Our afternoon coffee place affords a good view of the commuters returning to town after work everyday.... It's almost hilarious to see all the Tahoe's, Excursions, and 4WD pickups with one person in them returning home after their daily 100 mile round trip commute to Sioux Falls where they work!!!!!

Maybe we're just spoiled.....I don't know.. But it seems to me that a bit of applied common sense could solve a lot of our problems....

As for our government..... How is it people can sit back and expect the government to solve all their problems?????? Our government created most of the problems, and it's a cinch they have no incentive to solve them....

The government is NOT going to come up with a solution to our current fuel price issue....Why should they??? They ride around in a government owned car with a government credit card....it doesn't effect them.... We buy their airline tickets, pay for their vacations, pay their health insurance, and pay their retirement...... and you REALLY think they're going to give all this up?????

The sooner that people quit blaming the government, the oil companies, or whoever and quit expecting some government agency to come up with a program that will solve all their problems and make the price of gas .50/gal and take some individual action on their own to solve their problems, the sooner the problems will end...

i love you guys :D

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Originally Posted by jyardgirl

i love you guys :D

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I agree :3dSMILE: Who needs a T.V. :LOL:
Ken

so true :LOL:

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Originally Posted by jyardgirl

i love you guys :D

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Grumpy old men need lovin' too.:D

BTW, your signature line fits my philosophy to a T. Continue to embrace and expand your belief in it.

i truly believe in it Bob. I just wish more would. He was a very wise man.

Things getting to point the goverment going give you job , place to sleep and can soup to eat. Everyone else is in control of you life but you. What happen to land of the free. My 17 year old daughter will starting work. Quess what she going make enough money pay for gas to get to work and back. My wifes Italian food business going to hell after 40 years in faimly. By time pay for flour make bread and gas to deliver it. Your up side down. Not mention insurance. Things can't get any worse. When you hit rock bottom no place go but up.

I started making money at an early age, paper route, cutting grass {not the kind they smoke} I helped a neighbor build a house. Mixed the mortar for the blocks after mixing the concrete for the footers, and so on, worked at a gas station making 60 cents an hour. I went in the Army at 17 quit school my choice bad one, finished in the Army but it’s not the same, but I have to live with it. Got out of the Army started an apprenticeship as an Iron Worker. I worked in steel mills, powerhouses; I worked where they made tanks going to the Middle East. I had friends that did like a lot of the politicians did, go to college; get married have kids all to stay out of the draft. These are the people over the years that became the power people because they got their education. Today we have a volunteer Army a lot of young people go in for the benefits of a promise of money for school, and then they have fight to get it. As long as I was working I made pretty good money because of unions. In the 80’s it was “bust the unions” and that wasn’t good enough! Shut the plants down & build plants in other countries. Not all but a lot of the people that dodged the draft in a legal manner are the power people today running the Country. My brother in-law thought the unions were bad fighting for higher wages but when he sold a house and made 7% of what the house sold for that was the American way. We have a President that couldn’t do his duty but sends others to war; we have a person running for President that told more then he was suppose to. Who can say what they would do if being in the same situation but we all took an oath. A lot of people died for only giving what they were told to give. Are we forgetting that this Country had child labor, men fought and died in this Country to get fair wages for working in the mines? In 1950 if you were thought to be a communist, you could be executed. Today we are good friends with them. FAIR TRADE, being a Union Worker myself I see times going backwards. I also have been in plants where you couldn’t get a man to do a decent days work for a days pay. My whole thing boils down to there is no balance in anything today, balance and illusions are two words that I use a lot. My dad would talk about the WPA when I was a kid, $1.00 a day. {The way I see it today is everything is going up but wages.” WPA was not a hand out and their should not be hand outs today, if a person needs food and can work do like the signs say {will work for food} but we all know they do not want to work. Yesterday a law to have women making the same money as a man was rejected. My daughter went back to college and graduated after walking away 12 years ago, and to think when she was a little girl I told her she could do anything she wanted and be equal to anyone but now at 36 years old she hears that she does not have the right to make as much money as a man!!! If your making money today and meeting your expense’s your doing good but don’t forget the way companies are operating today anyone can end up in the soup line. I like soup but I like to stay warm also. I just did some wheeling and dealing for next years propane. Put the money in the tank now to save money in the future.

Richard

Its going to look like a third world country before it hits rock bottom,when the money fails is when the rioting will start,then when food gets in short supply is when we will see giant mobs or gangs that are no longer rioting against the government ,but now attacking you and me for food.I have seen hunger first hand and it will make people act plum crazy.

Bob, I know from seeing all of your posts over the time I have been on this forum that you are a very intelligent, well educated man, and you also have the respect of every person on this forum. But I think you are mistaken in your beliefs that things are not really all that bad in this country.

If a person is employed and making good money it may not appear to be any worse than it has been at any other time in history, but if you are either on a fixed income, unemployed, or one of the many who live paycheck to paycheck, it is an entirely different picture. Since I took early retirement my eyes have been opened quite a bit as to what too many people in this country face on a daily basis.

Gas prices are only a portion of the problem, although they affect more than what we put into our tanks. Food prices are skyrocketing because that same food has to get to us by truck. Truckers are being forced to be selective in the loads they haul because if they charge $ 1000 to do it and gas costs them $ 700 it leaves very little for them to eat and make their truck payments.

Home foreclosures are at record highs right now..........in the last two weeks alone 1200 homes went on the block here in Lee County. Those are 1200 families who are out on the street. Realtors are even chartering buses and taking people on them to view these homes........they call them the "foreclosure express." New car dealers can't give cars away, and the luxury market for things like motorhomes and boats is really taking a hit. Winnebago is cutting down to 4 days a week/32 hours per employee in an effort to stay afloat.

Healthcare insurance is another National disgrace. Here we are, supposedly the richest country in the world, and a huge percentage of our people have little or no heath insurance..........me included.

I always ask the person waiting on me at some business "so how is business?" I have not had ONE person in the past year tell me it is good.......they all say the same thing, that it stinks. Just yesterday I asked that question of the girl cutting my hair, and she told me her Husband has been laid off since November from the construction industry and can't find a job to save him. I understand that all too well. I have been fortunate enough that I have rarely had to look for a job, people were always calling me with offers. But that situation has dried up and everyone is saying the same thing, that they are laying off.

I know to some people this comes across as being somewhat "Chicken Little-ish", but the facts speak for themselves. This country is in trouble and why more people aren't alarmed is beyond me. I just hope whoever gets into office in November can do something to turn it around.

Don

Don-As a manufacture and use the most sought after commodities we are in trouble. We have never been affected by the economics before because of our niche market. But we are now. If people are not concerned they will be. This is an election year and historically economics flourish. My 2 cents.
Ken

Ken, as a manufacturer, maybe you can give us some insight into what you see happening right now. I know every area is different and possibly California isn't hit as hard as some other areas, but Florida is really suffering right now.

What pressures are being put on you by all of this? How about the labor situation?


Don

Here is my simplistic opinion of why this economic mess exists. We produce very little in this country any longer, we choose to buy it elsewhere. Consequently, the workers who are out of work have no money to buy things like cars, homes, boats, motorhomes, etc. When people earn money they love to spend it, but when money tightens up their first priority is survival.

But we can't blame the companies 100 percent for seeking ways to increase profits, we Americans have fallen into the Walmart sydrome..........we want CHEAP prices. Manufacturers have been forced to find creative ways to stay afloat, and one of the ways is to go overseas.

But we can't blame the manufacturers or even Walmart...........we Americans did it to ourselves. Our quest for cheap prices has left the local Mom and Pop store down the street in a situation where they can't compete. If you can't buy a trainload of a particular product you can't get a good enough price to compete.

I'm as guilty as everyone else. I would rather buy a floor jack from Harbor Freight and put up with it's leaking than to spend a lot more and get a good quality one Made In America. I drive by the local stores to get to a WalMart or Best Buy, or similar discount house.

McCain said the other day that we haven't trained our people to keep pace with modern technology, but even that isn't a 100 percent cure. High tech jobs are going overseas too.............when was the last time you called your computer company for help and didn't get someone in India?

Don

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Originally Posted by shawnlee28

Its going to look like a third world country before it hits rock bottom,when the money fails is when the rioting will start,then when food gets in short supply is when we will see giant mobs or gangs that are no longer rioting against the government ,but now attacking you and me for food.I have seen hunger first hand and it will make people act plum crazy.

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well they can line up i will feed them lead

Ken, you and I have different recollections of election year economies and their representation in the media.

2004 The Democrat line (and thus the media echo chanber) was "jobless recovery"

2000 The tech bubble had burst, NASDAQ had lost almost 50% from it's previous year high. Hi tech companies were failing left and right.

1996 Thanks to the massive expansion and market adoption of digital technologies we actually were in a relatively good economy, though unemployment was slightly higher than it is today.

1992 Remember the "it's the economy stupid" line? And the claim that it was "the worst economy in 50 years"? Okay, that was a lie..............but consider the source.

1988 Another year where the economy was pretty decent, though the housing market was nearing another peak and would be contracting almost as much then as it has now.

1984 We were almost over the remnants of the '70s. Inflation was low, crude/gasoline prices were dropping, more money was freeing up thanks to favorable tax policies that allowed investors (not government) to put it to work, much of it to be used as seed money for that new fangled personal computer geek stuff that might catch on for Universities, big businesses, and a few nerds.

1980 Ah yes, the Misery Index. A method of measuring the effects of what was a REAL piss poor economic model of high inflation, stagnant growth, price controls, wage controls, and several other stupid, economy crippling government measures that people keep bringing up from time even though history is full of examples of how they fail every time they're tried.


What pushed this country from a not too bad recession to a full on depression in 1929 was bad monetary policy by the federal reserve and the Smoot Hawley tariff (a protectionist measure against supposed "harmful" imports). Forward to today; It's now admitted by most that the federal reserve left the market rate at 1% for too long, encouraging risky loans in support of congressional threats against the lending indusrtry for not being "helpful" enough in allowing the "disadvantaged" (read bad credit risks) an opportunity to buy a home. Now, either of the Dem candidates is talking down trade and wanting to do some modern version of protectionism. Maybe you doom and gloomers will be right, especially since most of you are in favor of either of those two. History repeats itself................especially for those that refuse to learn from it

Maybe a glimmer of good news today. A federal reserve member let slip that they may be done cutting rates and will re-focus on inflation control. What happened as a result? The value of the dollar climbed 10%, crude oil dropped over $3, gold dropped below $900 (perhaps the best sign of all, since it was over $1000 a couple weeks ago), and the major stock exchanges were up. Speaking of which, what's one of the strongest sectors? Transportations. Thats mostly railroads and trucking. Both of which are forward looking indicators because before people buy stuff, it has to be shipped to where they are.

A note to our younger members here. Doom and gloom views are the meat of election year politics. You have to live in fear for the politicians to hold/gain power. Voices you might otherwise trust, and often for good reason, in matters automotive may not be as reliable in matters of economics. Your best chance to learn how to win is from the winners.

Bob-Yes we do, I guess it depends on what side of the fish bowl you are on.

Don-To really answer you I must tell you a story on what and how things happen to put us in this situation.
My company has be knock off several times, when you have a unique product that is heavily patented you must defend it every time or your pattens are worthless. In 1995 Harley Davidson saw our trailers showing up in there show rooms across the U.S. So someone there thought it would be a good idea to us and buy direct and them distribute them. After a couple of meetings with them I found out they had made a deal with another trailer manufacture to knock us off (that company is near you, Don). So that's what they did, but to get around my pattens they built a flaw into there design and they had a 100% recall and got out of the trailer business.
Then we had a few under capitalized company's go at us, with out any success. About 3 years ago there was a capitalized company buy one of our trailers and send it to China where he was already importing products, and knocked us off.
To fight a Patton infringement case with good attorneys cost about $1,400,000.
We won this case, if you can call this winning, and got it stopped.
But now the damage was done. I'm not sure exactly how many trailers they sold, but they represented them as a Kendon product. They even provided a copy of our user manual they down loaded on the INTERNET. There are a lot of those trailers out there that have had catastrophic failures and we get blamed for it and threatened with law suits until we get the Vin number and prove it wasn't built by us. Don't let me miss lead you we have had warranty issues but we really try our best to take care of any problems.
Let me get back to your question, because of all this, it's just a matter of time that someone else that is capitalized takes another swing at us.
That leaves us with really only one solution to stop this problem. We have to be able to sell our products at the same price that would come at us from an overseas product. Then we will be safe because of our reputation in the industry, I believe people will buy a known product over an unknown if the price is similar.
So when it comes down to feeding my family, I will do what I have to do. So here we are buying aluminum from Argentina, Tires from Taiwan, steel from China. I won't use an overseas manufacture for our suspension or assembly of our trailers. Everything is assembled here for quality reasons. But this may have to change to. We are looking at satellite stations across the U.S. to save on freight cost, labor, and insurance.
So instead of working for my company and doing what I do best, new products, 80% of my time is traveling to God knows where and trying to figure out what our next move is to try and improve.
Bob- Do I have a Doom and Gloom attitude? I try not to, I think these problems will be fixed in time. I think we have the greatest country in the world, but the way we do business will never be the same.
Ken

Thanks for that perspective Ken. It used to be so simple, a guy would come up with an idea and start building something to put bread on his table, then as it became popular he would hire a few more people to crank out even more of them. With a little luck and a lot of hard work he could eventually provide not only a good living for himself, but employ others who could also earn a living and flourish. Now we have so many outside forces working against us that it makes it almost impossible to do business any more. If it isn't some competitor trying to get us it is the Government putting tons of restrictions in our way.

Sure makes it interesting. :rolleyes:

Don

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Originally Posted by Ken Thurm

Bob- Do I have a Doom and Gloom attitude? I try not to, I think these problems will be fixed in time. I think we have the greatest country in the world, but the way we do business will never be the same.
Ken

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Ken, based on that fine tutorial on the realities a small manufacturing business faces you've clearly shown that when challenges were thrown your way you rolled your sleeves up a little farther and fought back. You didn't hunker down, cry "woe are we" and plead for the government to compensate you (although they could have a legitimate supporting roll in international patent enforcement based on the constitution). In a phrase; you make things happen.

We all get the chance to face challenges from time to time, as individuals, as families, as a nation. It's how we deal with them that is the distinction. Some people have a tendency to live as if history didn't exist until yesterday, so perhaps that's why they see whatever it is in front of them at the moment as "the worst____________it's ever been". Just as in the past, any slowdown will be righted by the doers in our midst, if they aren't thwarted by government.

The biggest obstacle that will never be fixed is the media, that in my opinion is the two headed serpent.
Ken

First I’m at the end of my journey so to speak, so this dose not apply to me, I’ve done my time.

Question to anyone that has an answer.

What are the people that’s in their late 30’s early 40’s going to do when they have lost their job, house, car, and some their spouse, because of the financial lost?

A lot of those people had an education and had jobs other then being factory workers. Unless I’m mistaking it was the people working in plants, and factory’s that made this Country great correct me if I’m wrong. China is growing by leaps and bounds by people making products even the $1.00 items they are taking over the work force. At one time we had the most productive workers in the World but not anymore. If you have a secure safe job, you will be fine but how can thousands of people start a business or fit in again.

It’s easy to say roll your sleeve’s up but roll them up to what? I’m sure there are a lot of people that would like to know.

Richard

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Originally Posted by Ken Thurm

The biggest obstacle that will never be fixed is the media, that in my opinion is the two headed serpent.
Ken

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Just as you addressed attacks on your design patent, citizens who feel/recognize media bias will seek alternatives. We live in a wondrous time where those who are willing to put forth the effort can learn anything via the internet. Surely, we need to learn how to sort the wheat from the chaffe as there's an abundance of both, but it's there for the absorbing. Two things loom on the horizon that endanger this open market of ideas, both are proposed federal legislation that are couched with titles that are so very Orwellian; The Fairness Doctrine, and Net Neutrality. While both purport to inject balance (the definition of which is the rub), on close scrutiny both block access and would foster a monopoly of opinion.

Well, this is my last post on this tread.
Bob- I do believe there is more opportunity today than ever before. We just have to break the old mold.

I want to thank every one who has posted on this thread. No attacks, just information and questions.
This is why I keep coming back and sharing my thoughts.
Thank you all of you for a great place to hang out.
Ken

Richard, your post was about the most clear writing I have ever seen regarding the current state of affairs. You nailed it exactly. I have always said that what built this country and pulled our butts out of two world wars was our ability to make stuff. We no longer "make stuff" in this country, we buy it from other countries who now have those factories and people.

Living in Florida is a perfect example of this. Florida is built on the service industry, we don't make anything that amounts to much here, very little manufacturing. We take care of people when they come to see Mickey Mouse or go to the beach. I always worked for manufacturers up North and when I lost my job in Florida (I was working for a Northern company, but living here) I couldn't find a comparable job to save me. I was being offered jobs at $ 10 an hour, and if I didn't take it the 6 guys interviewing with me would have.

The solution may not be simple but it is very obvious.........put people to work here and they will have money to put back into circulation, which will in turn create other jobs. Anyone who doesn't see that things are terrible right now must have blinders on, or be so well-healed that it doesn't affect them.

Don

Just to set the record straight,no gloom and doom here......I am just staying informed on what the enemy is doing..:LOL:
I am with the people who believe we were NOT put on this earth to toil in the dirt and sun all day like slaves ,I am almost positive this is not mankinds purpose on this planet.

Just on a side note ,the "organizers" are quite happy with the state of things at this current time.The slaves make food and goods for themselves and keep The "organizers" pockets lined with money...things could not get much better from thier view.As a added bonus there is now enuff slaves that many can get sickly and quit ..etc..and there is still plenty of slaves available to toil in the sun for the "organizers".
Where it was once illegal for the "organizers" to have a factory full of non american workers,now with the global markett ,they just move the factory there instead,because the american slave has demanded too much from the "organizers"......

Take this tale into consideration.........
Think of it as a giant snipe hunt......shure the new guy is excited to maybe get a chance at a snipe.......:LOL: .Meanwhile he is very unaware that the rest of us are sitting there watching and laughing.Well the "organizers" have sent the american people on a giant snipe hunt for the last 100 years and have been sitting there laughing at us all,meanwhile we think our cause is just or our mission is correct ...when the reality is we are operating from flawed info and have been chasing our tails ,while the "organizers" have drained the people and the country dry.

Just to strike the point home,you are aware that we only get 25 percent of the money we make......??????Almost 40 percent right off the top in a illegal taxation of wages ,then you pay sales tax ,etc tax,etc tax ,etc tax.Which leaves you with a 25 percent ratio of actuall money to spend,soo I guess we are only 75 percent slaves ,not full blown slaves yet. My bad......