Show Car or Driver?

Guys,

I am bringing this discussion up (and it may have been discussed many times before) because of a few events that I have witnessed in the last Month or so-

I went to the local "Autorama" (is it the 60's again?) about a Month ago, and when I go I am always looking for Cars of my Vintage to see how they did this or that. Anyway, my build is obviously a '35 Coupe (see my username?) and there was this beautiful '36 three window there-turns out it is owned by a guy in my little town who owns a Company that makes Ladders (ever hear of the Little Giant Ladder?). He has about 40-50 old Cars, has three full time mechanics and is quite eccentric. But-it did not have any Weatherstripping in the Car, so I would think wind noise would be horrific-Show Queen? Quite possibly.

Anyway, the craftsmanship on this car was amazing-handmade Stainless Grille, chrome or stainless everything.

Then, last Friday, I get a call from a guy who is also building a '36, and talked to Alumicraft about their Grilles-they gave him my number and he asked if he could see the Grille for quality-I said sure, but it sounds like he is building a $200K Show Queen-that got me thinking-what am I really building here? A Driver or something else?

Where is the line that determines Show Queen from really nice Driver? Do I hope to have a nice Car that I can take to outside Cruises/Show? Well, kind of-I think all of us look for recognition after all the Hours/Money/Sweat we put into them. Do you guys have any personal takes on what constitutes a Driver vs. Show Queen?

IMHO, show queens are generally high dollar cars that the owner and/or builder doesn't want to take the chance of the car getting damaged on the road or at some motel late at night. I don't have a problem with that except I think it takes all of the fun out of it.

The difference between a show car and a driver is an enclosed trailer. Drivers are not found on or in a trailer, unless they are broke. Show cars are not found on the road, unless a trailer is not allowed in an event they are attending. (I have seen a number of show cars parked on side of the road broken down because someone didn't put it together real good :LOL: :LOL: ).

You can have a $15k paint job, plenty of digital stuff and billet and still be a driver. I know several who do, even on trips of hundreds of miles.:eek: They arrive dirty, but with soap, water, a bunch of towels and some TLC, they clean up real nice. If you are afraid of a paint chip or if you can't afford to fix the chips, then trailer it (or leave it in the garage). If you are physically incapable of driving it to long distance shows, trailer it. But if you are not physically handicapped and you long for the true pleasure of driving and ownership, get in, turn the key, and head out on that hiway.:D :D :D

A car can become too nice to drive. I've seen it happen so many times where someone builds a car and when it is done they are afraid to take it out because it might get dirty or scratched. My Nephew falls into that category.......he has a '67 Shelby that was once his daily driver, but is now a very high point car. He trailers it in a matching trailer to a show, always wins his class, and takes it back to his garage where it sits covered until the next show. Last time I talked to him he said he hates the car now because it is too valuable to use! :rolleyes:

Guess it depends on what you want it to be. If the competition at a show is your turnon, then you have to make the decision to try to keep the car in show winning condition at all times, and not risk any damage to it. But I like to actually get in mine and drive to the store or just to get some fresh air, so I get stone chips and lots of bugs on my radiator. I have to admit I don't drive my '23 nearly as much as I did my '27 because the shiny black paint takes more upkeep. My '27 was in primer it's whole life and I used it literally daily.

Personally, I walk right by the high dollar trailer queens at a show and spend my time studying the ones that the owners actually use.

Don

Craig,
A show car doesn't have any road rash, the tires still have the molding tits, the brake rotors don't show much in the way of wear, the interior appears to have never been sat on and as Bob said, there is an enclosed trailer somewhere nearby.

If I have had a chance to talk to the owner of a 'show car', he seldom has a clue as to what it is or not more then the fact that it is a ___ ___ with a ___ ___ engine and has ___Hp and that he paid __ and ___ to build and paint it (fill in the blanks with your own imagination run wild). I've had this discussion with a couple of the 'big parts suppliers' and without exception, they feel that many of these 'show car' folks are doing their current 'in thing' and that they have already drifted from big houses, boats, trips to faraway places (not Eire:whacked: ) and this is just another stop on their way of life. I talked to some 'show car' folks at York 3-4 years ago, before they banned on grounds camping. Half to in excess of a million dollar campers pulling their show car trailers. I got offered an almost new Freightliner toy hauler for "only $285K.

Now with the above said, is it wrong? No, it isn't. While it isn't my way, it does serve one purpose in my mind - the quality of some of those cars makes me want to do a better job. Also, these cars have also fostered the development of pieces that were never considered for a street rod a few years ago. One down side - auctions like Barrett-Jackson, IMHO, have driven some prices beyond the scope of reality for some very mundane cars. Sorry but to me a '67 Plymouth Hemi 'cuda just is not worth a half million dollars nor is a flat head Lincoln powered Zephyr.

OK - the soap box has been folded and stored for another day:LOL:

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Originally Posted by IC2

Craig,
A show car doesn't have any road rash, the tires still have the molding tits, the brake rotors don't show much in the way of wear, the interior appears to have never been sat on and as Bob said, there is an enclosed trailer somewhere nearby.

OK - the soap box has been folded and stored for another day:LOL:

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Well then,

I guess I'm building a Driver then (guess I lost my "compass" there for a while :whacked: )-I think most of us here are Drivers, I'm trying to build it reasonably nice but I think I was trying to figure out the differences bewteen build qualities-I think I'll be careful with it the first Season or so, then drive it-a lot-

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Originally Posted by 35WINDOW

Guys,
Where is the line that determines Show Queen from really nice Driver? ... I think all of us look for recognition after all the Hours/Money/Sweat we put into them. ....what constitutes a Driver vs. Show Queen?

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This is an intersting discussion. How much of an investment is considered a high dollar "show queen" anyway. I hear some guys comment (brag) about how little their cars cost them to build and they are the first who are dissapointed when they don't get a trophy, then rag on the High Dollar Trailer Queens that do win. I have overheard several times how someone just "bought" the trophy.
After 40 years of car fever, I find it is not hard at all to get a lot of money tied up in any kind of car. $15,000 for the initial cost of a good glass body and even more for a good steel body, whether it be a 32 ford or a 69 Camaro. Even if you build your own chassis you will have $10-15,000 if you use NEW parts. (we are talking street rod here and not rat rod, right?) $10,000+ for engine and drivetrain, $10,000+ for interior. $20-30,000 for good body work and paint.
So far that adds up to between $60 -$80,000. AND, you can add a bunch more if you want chrome or billet. I mean, look at the cost of a set of big wheels and tires alone.
I, like most of you, did practically everything myself, except for the paint, and I still have $65,000 in receipts. That does not count my labor by the way. Before you go on about how I must have money in order to do that I want you to know that I don't. I am just the average, Club Hot Rod, working guy. The spending of that much was pure happenstance. I got into a situation that turned in to a build or bust, either spend the money and do it right or take a loss. I bet most of you know the feeling don't you? I have a friend that always wanted to build a one off sports car. He spent $60,000 on his "baby" that has sat half finished in a barn for the last several years. He got in so far and decided he couldn't afford to finish it. There are probably thousand of stories just like that out there.
At the cost of mine, I really don't consider it to be a high dollar show car. I do drive mine, but not without the occasional wince. I think it is just what it costs to build a "nice" car these days. I bet there are a whole bunch of guys on this forum with that much and more money spent (I was going to say invested?) on their cars. Will we ever get our money out of them? Probably not, but who knows. We don't necessarily build them for resale.
The point is that it is not realistic to compare the price of our toys. Nor start putting labels on the either. they are what they are.
John

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Originally Posted by IC2

One down side - auctions like Barrett-Jackson, IMHO, have driven some prices beyond the scope of reality for some very mundane cars. Sorry but to me a '67 Plymouth Hemi 'cuda just is not worth a half million dollars nor is a flat head Lincoln powered Zephyr.

OK - the soap box has been folded and stored for another day:LOL:

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And it seems, at least in this area, that any well preserved or not so well preserved car or truck from the '50's, '60's or '70's is trying to be sold for $15,000+. **) :eek:

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Originally Posted by 41willys

Before you go on about how I must have money in order to do that I want you to know that I don't. I am just the average, Club Hot Rod, working guy.

John

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Me too-doesn't it make you wonder how many of us forego some "fun" in order to finance our builds? I'm going to be in the range of money that you are spending too (when done), and there are times I do make a decision-do I want that latest Gadget, or maybe that will buy that Flaming River Stainless column I want? I refuse to owe money on this-it will be 100% paid for when done-

Aren't you forgetting a third catagory......."Street & Show"?

I always built this kind of car....and I don't want to hear this "gold chainer" bullshit! I built my own, assembled the engine...rebuilt the trans, rear, brakes, etc.....put in the interior....rewired them....bought what I could afford....did the fabrication and bodywork...and painted them. I tried to make them nice inside and out...striking wheels, paintwork and graphics that I liked. Flat black on the bottom....but clean and neatly built. Maybe if an item underneath showed, like traction bars or headers, they were painted a brighter color. New weatherstripping....upholstery....nice paint on the interior hard parts....some dress-up items on the engine, and the engine compartment done neatly.

Once done, I drove them to car events, entered shows, and cruised 'em. If they got a sctratch or something got too worn....I fixed it. The big difference was that I did not expect to win shows. If I did, it was gravy. The really great part about shows was listening to the nice things people had to say about my toys. I didn't even worry about awards.

I don't think the mentality should be that a hot rod has to be the equivalent of either a "show car" or a "work truck". It can be something in between, if that is what makes you happy, and you are willing to work for it.

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Originally Posted by HOTRODPAINT

Aren't you forgetting a third catagory......."Street & Show"?

I always built this kind of car....and I don't want to hear this "gold chainer" bullshit! I built my own, assembled the engine...rebuilt the trans, rear, brakes, etc.....put in the interior....rewired them....bought what I could afford....did the fabrication and bodywork...and painted them. I tried to make them nice inside and out...striking wheels, paintwork and graphics that I liked. Flat black on the bottom....but clean and neatly built. Maybe if an item underneath showed, like traction bars or headers, they were painted a brighter color. New weatherstripping....upholstery....nice paint on the interior hard parts....some dress-up items on the engine, and the engine compartment done neatly.

Once done, I drove them to car events, entered shows, and cruised 'em. If they got a sctratch or something got too worn....I fixed it. The big difference was that I did not expect to win shows. If I did, it was gravy. The really great part about shows was listening to the nice things people had to say about my toys. I didn't even worry about awards.

I don't think the mentality should be that a hot rod has to be the equivalent of either a "show car" or a "work truck". It can be something in between, if that is what makes you happy, and you are willing to work for it.

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ditto!:D i for one would never own a car i couldnt actually drive , as i see it what would be the point in the first place , im sure trailer queens have there place as there are a lot out there that are just not built for cruising in ..

Well, there are people out there with lots of money so they (the mega expemsive non drivers) will always have their place. I still like to look at 'em. Meanwhile, who the hell cares? **) This is America, a place where you can freely express yourself, at least for now. :toocool: Meanwhile people who get wrapped around the axle on Rats or Trailers or Whatever truly keep me amused. :LOL: I say Get Over It. :)

Kitz

I know what it is like to start with a nice car and then go over board to the point it is always on the trailer and it goes back in the garage to a cover. That is what I did with my Vette. The last 3 years I had it I put a total of 142 miles on it.
It got to be a job going to shows and running for points. I had fun at first but after you win what you wanted then it is no longer fun. Then you get to a point where you need to keep making changes from year to year to get the public and the judges to keep scoring you.
With my '32 it is a nice car I have about $40 in it plus my labor and it also helps tha the job I have I meet many people and score a ton of freebies or I would have more. But I knew I was driving this when I can. Last year drove to Syracuse in the pooring rain 300 miles each way. It was a LONG ride but it was a fun ride just the same. Now it is not an every day driver but I did put on 3000 miles in 1.5 years and still able to win at regional shows and even have done well at the large shows.
Just takes time and effort to clean it up.
Here are pictures of my Vette and the '32 when I got to syracuse.....dirty and nasty but cleaned up well enough to get chosen
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...d/DSC02706.jpg
http://iceburgh66.tripod.com/sig6.jpg
http://iceburgh66.tripod.com/IMG_0031.jpg

It is possible to have a driver that can win a car show. Do your best and put it in that in door car show as soon as you finish it, after that drive it and enjoy it. I will say that it is a lot more fun driving it to a car show like GoodGuys or area car shows than it is trailering it every place you go. Itoldyouso's nephew is proof of that.

I built my truck as a driver from day one. I finished it three years ago and I have put over 10,000 miles on it driving it on weekends, work once in a while, Goodguys events and local car shows. Sure it has a radiator full of bugs and been caught in many rain storms but soap & water, wax and lots of elbow grease always keep it looking great.

In short take it to a serious car show when it is freshly finished and enjoy being a part of that then have tons of fun driving it. You won't regret it.

After all, it is a car not a steinway piano.

I learned a long time ago that it's always best to build what you want and use it the way you want. Other people's opinion matters little unless they are stepping up to write the big check to buy it!!!!!

I prefer tailering most of the time, but that's more because I get a lot more enjoyment out of the build process then I do the driving.... Once it's done, it's just another car and I'm probably bored with it and ready to sell it and move on to the next project.... Friend of mine has been running and updating the same '40 Ford coupe since '75.... We of course constantly argue about who is the most insane...... Just do what suits you, and don't worry about what others think.

I like to drive the old cars not the newer ones; I let the wife drive them. Some people use trailers for different reasons. Each one does what ever is best for them.

When you see 4 or 5 street rods heading for the NSRA or Goodguys event running with traffic, people giving the thumbs up, small kids straining to get a glimpse of the old hot rods with big motors and nice paint; that’s what I like about driving. Pull into a rest stop and have a dozen old cars lined side by side. Taking pit stops getting a bite to eat and then hitting the highway to the event. I drove a Street Rod cross-country 1000 miles one way and it was a pleasure. I put new interior in the car drove it home then sold it. I didn't put a scratch on it that I was aware of. The drive is a big part of the enjoyment of owning the old cars but my old car's never cost as much or more then my house.

I can see Dave's point. If I built a car to sell I wouldn’t want to take a chance on having something happen to it.

I ask the same question some time ago show/driver on this forum:

Solution:
Show the car the first yr. or two and enjoy the experience(trophies if you get one).
Enjoy the car by driving where you please.
Out of town trips to show the car are costly,but it's your money.
Build it the way you want to $$$$ wise.
Don't add up the build invoices (ok after you are dead).
If it's a performance engine drive it to get that rush.

I am glad I chose to drive it.

I guess I've had them all- from trailered show car to the current Deuce I choose to drive.
The 40 Ford was a blown alky tube frame monster. In 5 years- I put a whopping 500 miles on it. Drive it? Where? It was 1500 hp! It won every show it was entered in. Fastest car in & out of the trailer.:LOL:

The Prostreet 55. Many people know the car. It's been featured in many mags inc CHP, SC, Chevy Rumble. It won Super Chevy 4 years in a row.
Started out as a driver (that's what I promised the wife) and went insane from there. Over a 8 year period- the car was rebuilt 3 times from the frame up! All to keep the look fresh. Stooooopid!

The 32 is what? I have no clue. It's all pro built- a 1st for me! I built the other cars. It has 15,000 miles, I drive it but I can show the car w/ mirrors if I feel like detailing the bottom. Other times I enter the car & never put the judge tag on the window. Depends on the mood. Then I drive it home.
I have no idea how one would classify it- for me, I'd say it's a blast to drive!
Do they have a trophy for that class?:p

My car is currently over at SoCal for some insurance work. I got talking to Ryan today- the shop manager & he told me they build cars to drive.
So Ryan- looking at my car, what would you charge to build a steel Brookville or RodBods turn key car like mine?

Price? 180-200k & that's a driver!
Their show stuff is 600k to a cool mil.

I like Jay Leno's philosophy............"I build them to be a 100 point car, then drive them until they are a 70 pointer." :LOL: :LOL:

Don

One of these days I'm going to be sitting here with little to do and then take out my receipts and add up how much I've spent for a 'driver' but with all good/new pieces. My guess is that when done, it will be in the $60K+ range for a '31 Brookville bodied, TCI w/IFS framed, SB Ford powered Model A roadster. Nothing spectacular, but everything except the powder coating on the frame and upholstery will have been done by me. My wife gets on my case occasionally about getting it done - and it will be soon. There have been several years of enjoyment building it - deciding how I want it to look, searching out that special part, installing it the way I want it. This has been my enjoyment. And before I retired, my stress outlet to forget about that guy that was PO'd because his power plant wasn't running yet!!

I really feel for those guys with the fat checkbook who commission a car with one of the big builders. For the most part, he doesn't get his hands dirty. He is IMO, really missing out on a lot of personal pleasure in creating something - but.....different strokes..... My previous post say what I have found at various shows about those individuals and what it does for the industry/pasttime.

In the summer months, my roadster pickup becomes my daily driver. The first two years I drove it, I attended a lot of local car shows, and took a lot of trophies. This is a car that I literally built from "scratch", and I have about $30,000 invested in it. Last year, which was my third year for the car, I didn't take many trophies, and rightly so. Keep the trophies for the new cars that people are just finishing and let them win a trophy on their "first time out".---Its a tremendous ego booster!!! I still take good care of my RPU, and I still shoo kids away from the painted running boards, and I still worry a lot when I have to leave it in a hotel/motel parking lot overnight. (Yeah, thats mine, parked under the brightest parking lot light, right beside the foyer entrance!!!). I have started taking a few major trips with mine in the summer, and I enjoy that. It is the most highly recognized hotrod in my city of 125,000 because I drive it every day, all over town. Many people have mentioned to me that they know there are other hotrods around the city (a lot of them in fact), but you only see them on cruise night, never out thru the rest of the week like mine. I would not want a show car that was too nice to drive. I sure as Hell don't want a 'Rat-rod" either!! I think that a car can be show worthy and a daily driver, if you want to take the time to be constantly touching up paint and waxing and cleaning, and polishing. I find that after 3 years, I just want it to look "good enough", leave the trophies for the new guys.---Brian.

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Timberline wrote: It is possible to have a driver that can win a car show.

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That's very true. George Poteet has several high dollar show cars that he drives on various long distance rod runs periodically. There's a guy who lives down the road from me who has a professional built 37 Chevy with a lot custom body fabs. Several years ago the car was on the cover and written up by just about every Streetrod/hotrod and custom car mag in America. He drives it everyplace and it is as beautiful today as it was when built.:3dSMILE:

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IC2 wrote: My guess is that when done, it will be in the $60K+ range for a '31 Brookville bodied...

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:eek: :eek: :eek:

As much as I would love to build a 31 or 32 roadster, I think I might have to follow in Don's (Itoldyouso) footsteps to get my retirement roadster.:D :cool:

a whole bunch of these !


http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x...d/img509-1.jpg

get you about 20 bucks worth of plastic!:D

http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x...d/IM000879.jpg
the wife hates this stuff , i got small stashes of them all over the house..