Need a New Computer

I'm looking at new computers and not sure that I want a lap top yet - but that isn't what I want to ask. Microsoft has come out with Vista but are still offering XP. My wife has Vista at work and the new version of Office 2007 (I think). It has been a horror story for her company. Reading a lot of posts on a computer web site, it seems that many are having the same problems - that Microsoft made changes just for the sake of making them and that many(most?) of the old appilcations will not work in Vista. I'm not sure that I'm seeing the correct story on the computer website. I do like XP and my Office '97, it's working well, but the PC is getting cranky and I think it's telling me it needs a new home.

So:

Vista - and why you like it and why I should
XP - and why the new PC should have it

Help

buy the system with Vista and load XP on it, you will have the restore disk for going to vista later after bugs are worked out of it, and most importantly the license covers vista AND XP. i run 2007 as one of the IT staff we are testing it out, I hate it, really I do. Things have been moved around too much and simple tasks have to be re-learned.

laptop versus desktop is an interesting question, lots of people want laptops and then when I talk to them about it they don't really have a need for it. any time somebody asks me for advice about what to get I spend time talking to them about 1. what they currently use computers for 2. what they realistically see themselves using it for in the future. most systems are overbuilt for what a real user needs.

Red

when i bought my new lap top the queen of mean scrubed my hard drive and reloaded xp on it , i have not had any problems with xp at all , a few of my fellow co-workers have vista on their computers and its a nightmare , the program is not user friendly at all , maybe one day it will be but for now im personally gonna use the xp..

I got Vista on my new laptop, don't get it. I'v had 2 counts of driver faliure because Vista likes to change them to make them better..

Cant change w/o getting new HD cause Acer decided to put the recovery stuff ON the hard drive, on a partition I cant remove w/o loosing all.

Looks like XP is still the winner tho I do like Dago's idea. I don't have a separate full XP OS disk, unfortunately, to go that way. I'm leaning towards the XP and dump most of the bloatware that manufacturers seem to want to install and load up the hard drive. Maybe, if my ship come in I can buy a good desk top and a low end lap top (wishful thinking) but like Denny, I have many pictures and they really fill up the lap top quick. Now, another Dell, an HP or possibly a Lenovo(which I believe is now Chinese owned)?? Dell service has hit the bottom and HP is sounding good - I wish I had the skills to build my own. Did a 386 once with some geek help long ago, but it was very mediocre in performance. Not a decision that needs to be made today but gotta get the research started and a plan going.**) :D

hey dave maybe this would work:D:D:D
http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e1...rtm/ct0018.jpg

I've just got a cheap old HP, and a cheap HP laptop for tuneups on the chipped stuff we play with. Both are about 5 years old and still work great.....

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Originally Posted by IC2

Looks like XP is still the winner tho I do like Dago's idea. I don't have a separate full XP OS disk, unfortunately, to go that way. I'm leaning towards the XP and dump most of the bloatware that manufacturers seem to want to install and load up the hard drive. Maybe, if my ship come in I can buy a good desk top and a low end lap top (wishful thinking) but like Denny, I have many pictures and they really fill up the lap top quick. Now, another Dell, an HP or possibly a Lenovo(which I believe is now Chinese owned)?? Dell service has hit the bottom and HP is sounding good - I wish I had the skills to build my own. Did a 386 once with some geek help long ago, but it was very mediocre in performance. Not a decision that needs to be made today but gotta get the research started and a plan going.**) :D

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Buy a barebones system w/ the motherboard and prosessor/ heatsink and fan installed. AMD dual core ( Athalon 64 X2 ) or Pentium dual core ( core duo or core 2 duo ) would be great, especially if there 2ghz per core or better.. this will give you the basics, the motherboard will be hooked up, all the pins for the lights will be plugged in, motherboard power ect... then all you do is add a hard drive, CD rom and memory, probably have it for $500 or so. Don't go For SATA HD's, there marginally faster but for the cost it's not worth it. IDE HD's are easier to hook up anyway, pin 1 ( red line on cable ) almost always points to power plug. set the jumper to cable select, make shure it is plugged in b4 the CD rom, set the CD rom to slave jumper.

Oh, I was looking on Ebay yesterday, there is a laptop refurbishing company that gives 30 day warrantys on laptops. I was looking at an IBM 600 they had listed, because I have 1 ( beater, non working screen, needs to be plugged into monitor but I use it as a backup ). it was gaurenteed except the battery wasn't ( 20$ new on ebay ) the laptop was somthing like $50 buy it now. theres a lot of laptops on ebay in the $10-150 range, some need stuff like hard drives and cd roms, but some are working.

All my computers (5 including the one at work) have XP Pro and Office 2000 to Office 2003 on them. I have both Vista and Office 2007 in my desk drawer and that is where they will stay until they get some bug fixes out on the market. Way too many problems considering how much they have been marketed.

The problem with most new systems, you don't get a choice of operating software. Vista is what nearly all companies are installing. Some might install XP / XP pro, or Linus, but not many. You may be able to get a seller to install XP Pro, instead of Vista, but you would have to buy from a company such as Dell or Gateway or a specialty computer builder, to get that option. Most big box computer stores won't give you the option.

You could also get a new computer with out any operating system installed, and then install one of your own choice. Some companies will do that as well. Check out systems at Tigerdirect.com, I believe they have systems without operating systems installed or will give you a choice of systems. I like Red's idea, but have never tried it myself. Just make sure you got all of the restore disks. Some companies load the restore software on to a partition on the harddrive. Great place to have it in a disk crash.:LOL: :eek:

As others have stated, my advice is to stay away from both Vista and Office 2007, until the bugs are killed. Besides from what I have seen Vista will likely be repaced with another system in the very near future.:eek:

Keep it simple and however you do it install XP. You can't install it over Vista. You have to wipe the HD clean. Reformat it. XP Home has been bullet proof for me over several years with a handfull of freeze ups attributed to a zillion things open at once multi-tasking.

But you MUST run clean up utilities no matter what OS your run. Clean the browser cache or your machine will drag ass. Run Disc cleanup and defrag weekly. I use a couple freeware utilities that can do a bit more also.

DO NOT discount the value of having a 2nd HD on your PC. I have for many years. You can easily back things up or out lesser used programs there to keep C drive lean and mean. It is dead simple on a new machine to put the old HD in as drive D slave and simply drag files to new locations instead of endless copying to move them. Also you can install a different OS on the other drive if you have any issues with certain programs not running on a later OS. At boot up you can usually key into the boot menu and choose the which HD you want to boot with. Wanna run Vista and Windows 98? Knock yourself out.

Lots of good ideas here - but I sure can tell the young guys that grew up with computers from the frosted top seasoned folk.

I really think I could build a decent home brew unit myself - at least the desk top. Lap tops?? Not so sure but am going to look into both before I jump in for the big bucks pre made. Never thought about EvilBay for a dead lap top and I even have a listing there now!!:D

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Originally Posted by DennyW

Dave, it's really not hard to build one. Look at me. 1999 was the first time I turned one on, and the blue screen made me cuss. :LOL:

I built my son's dual core gaming computer for 530.00. The like ones all done were 13-1500.00. You just have to decide what you want it to do first. Some boards are not expandable. There you have to be careful. The low priced ones new, are usually that way. I have built mine also. Not as bold as my son's, because I do not game like him. I have 450.00 in mine. That's new case, new board, pen 4 processor, 3 hard drives. (I just got a 500 gig western digital, new, for 106.50) for the added pictures. I run the case air tight. I use 2 120 x 1" fans on the side, with filters. 2 80 fans on the back for exhaust. No dust, and runs really cool. :)

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I guess I'd best start figuring out if this is the way to go - and quite frankly, think it is. BUT, I still have to make my wife happy as well so she can do her HR thing occasionally at home. The separate monster hard drive for pictures intrigues me as well as it is eating my current one, even with putting many on CDs.

I'll spec out a set of components and run by you via PM for a sanity check - any problem with that?

The motherboards you need to watch out for are the MATX boards, they fit in full size cases and work, but they come with 3 or less PCI card slots. it's what I have, and it works, but when I build my next 1, I'll be using a Full ATX board.

mine's 5 years old now, and I have upgraded once a year.

AMD sempron 2500+ ( 1.75 ghz )
512mb ram
128 MB AGP graphics card ( Nvidia 440 MX )
30gb Maxtor
160gb Western Digital
Lite On DVD RW DL w/ lightscribe 20x speed

I think I might have around $600 in it now after upgrades


I built almost the same computer for sombody else a few months ago, all he had was the case and cd rw remaining from another computer. I think we had $130 in parts

I use www.tigerdirect.com for parts myself but www.newegg.com is good to

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Originally Posted by Matt167

The motherboards you need to watch out for are the MATX boards, they fit in full size cases and work, but they come with 3 or less PCI card slots. it's what I have, and it works, but when I build my next 1, I'll be using a Full ATX board.

mine's 5 years old now, and I have upgraded once a year.

AMD sempron 2500+ ( 1.75 ghz )
512mb ram
128 MB AGP graphics card ( Nvidia 440 MX )
30gb Maxtor
160gb Western Digital
Lite On DVD RW DL w/ lightscribe 20x speed

I think I might have around $600 in it now after upgrades


I built almost the same computer for sombody else a few months ago, all he had was the case and cd rw remaining from another computer. I think we had $130 in parts

I use www.tigerdirect.com for parts myself but www.newegg.com is good to

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I generally use newegg for various things and have had pretty good luck - but did have to find out with a new CD/DVD writer that if you order OEM instead of accessory, you get the part - no instructions:eek:

I'll do my homework

I don't know if this helps, but when I got ready to buy a new computer, I was looking at the price leaders at the time, Dell and Gateway. I asked my chat groups to tell me if either caused problems. I got all positive feedback on Dell, but Gateway owners responded reporting troubles. I bought a Dell, and am using XP with zero problems in about 4 years.

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Originally Posted by IC2

I generally use newegg for various things and have had pretty good luck - but did have to find out with a new CD/DVD writer that if you order OEM instead of accessory, you get the part - no instructions:eek:

I'll do my homework

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yup. OEM always means brown box part only, no drivers

if you buy an OEM prosessor, you get prosessor only, no fan/ heatsink also no warranty.

My lite on dvd rw was retail, I got software, instructions and warranty for $40 +
shipping from Tiger direct.

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Originally Posted by DennyW

Check out zip zoom fly. And look for a motherboard cpu combo at different places. The ASUS board is nice. You can safely overclock 30%, and stay stable.

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I don't know about now but ASUS was having problems w/ there boards failing like last year cause the silicon composition was incorrect, big problem w/ dells cause they use ASUS boards. I prefer genuine Intel boards, or AMD liscensed boards if you want AMD

Also, make shure you get a board that has a Nvidia N force chipset or a Pentium chipset, don't get a VIA chipset, there crap

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Originally Posted by Matt167

yup. OEM always means brown box part only, no drivers

if you buy an OEM prosessor, you get prosessor only, no fan/ heatsink also no warranty.

My lite on dvd rw was retail, I got software, instructions and warranty for $40 +
shipping from Tiger direct.

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I opened the case, took out the dead drive, screwed in the new one and it works - but my luck isn't always that good. And opening a Dell case, it's often a challange just to find the latch and that was the hardest part of the entire job. The LG I bought was rated better then the comparable Lite-on and somewhat cheaper tho I did use a Lite-on as a replacement on my last PC and it was great. The only forum complaint was that the LG was noisy and slow. Compared to the POS I took out, it's dead quiet and faster then greased lightning. But then I'm somewhat deaf in my right ear, the same side the computer sits (thanks, Uncle Sam)

Last summer I found Microcenter had a couple of their brand "Micro Electronics" in the back room that still had XP Pro on them. Out front it was all Vista. You just have to ask the right sales person. I bought one and it's great.

laptops you won't be able to build from scratch, unless you have some connections, it is hard to find all of the components and so much is designed specifically for the manufacturer that is going to resell them.

Besides, warranty, yes when building a computer you get individual product warranty, but what this means is that if something breaks you have to send it to that manufacturer and wait for the return. the warranties also vary on length. you buy a system from somebody like Dell and can get the warranty on everything for whatever time period (up to what, 5 or 6 years) that you like.

My home computer I built as well, it's middle of the road on graphics because I don't play games, I think I have about 4gb of Ram, an older AMD processor (2gb?) and 2 300gb drives for capacity. (and of course the 150 dollar case with a window and neon lights I can turn on if I were in the mood) BUT if it goes down for a few days I can handle it. the computers at work are all Dell, something goes bad I call and have parts the next day. on a laptop I would only go with a new one, and dell for instance (I think there is at least one other manufacturer that does this) offers a "complete care" warranty as well. this covers even accidental damage to the laptop. that is the only way to fly. I have had two systems people spilled drinks in, plus a few right now that need repair because our laptop cart fell off the back of our box truck. by the way, testament to the dell product (latitude series laptops) 24 laptops in the cart, lift gate about 4' off the ground, cart stands another 4' above that. whole thing went off the back, only cosmetic damage!!!!

Red

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Originally Posted by Dago Red

laptops you won't be able to build from scratch, unless you have some connections, it is hard to find all of the components and so much is designed specifically for the manufacturer that is going to resell them.

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you can build a laptop. IBM's are easy as all the parts you can get new off the internet.

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Originally Posted by IC2

I opened the case, took out the dead drive, screwed in the new one and it works - but my luck isn't always that good. And opening a Dell case, it's often a challange just to find the latch and that was the hardest part of the entire job. The LG I bought was rated better then the comparable Lite-on and somewhat cheaper tho I did use a Lite-on as a replacement on my last PC and it was great. The only forum complaint was that the LG was noisy and slow. Compared to the POS I took out, it's dead quiet and faster then greased lightning. But then I'm somewhat deaf in my right ear, the same side the computer sits (thanks, Uncle Sam)

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Yea, I kno what you mean.. I made the mistake of buying a OEM vid card, came w/ no drivers... driver was 20 mb and I had dialup at the time.

OEM memory is worth it, anything else, not so much

I started building my own in 1985 with off the shelf hardware. At that time you could build for a lot less than you could buy. In many ways you still can if you do enough research and have reliable deep discount places to shop. Last year I was going to build a new pc, and I wanted a core 2 duo system with ram expansion capability up to 8 gb and a large 320 - 500 gb hd plus two dvd burners. After pricing the parts I found that I could buy a ready built system for less than it was going to cost me. (I paid $599, couldn't build for that price). Not as much self satisfaction, but it got me to where I wanted to be, cheap. :3dSMILE: This isn't always the case, but like I said if you do the research, it can happen.

The most important thing is the motherboard, and that is where all of research time should be spent. There are so many variables it's almost mind boggling. And needless to say, it is very difficult to find a motherboard at a reasonable price with all the bells and whistles that your heart desires. One good thing about building versus buying is that you won't end up with a proprietary system where many of the additional or replacement parts have to purchased from the OEM. I hate those bastards.:LOL:

In any case, good systems can be had for under $500 or you can spend $3500 if that is what you desire. As for a laptop, I would never consider building one. The best rugged ones are Panasonic, but they are pricey. Toshiba's are the most reliable, but Dell is a close follower. With Dell you can pick and choose your components, which is a good thing.

The most reliable systems, desktop or laptops, are Apples, but they are not big sellers in the business world.

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Originally Posted by DennyW

Hey, don't say that to loud Matt. My asus is 4 years old, and still kicking. :LOL: 2.4 clocked to a 3.6. :)

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Yours was made b4 the problem started, this was only 1 or 2 years ago. my dad
who works for a IT company, and is Dell certefied. was having to replace a lot of the boards on recall when they burned up. but I later found out it was linked to Retail ASUS also..

I tried to clock my socket A sempron 2500 to 2ghz from 1.75 and it became unstable. I can clock it to 1.8 w/o problems but 500mhz is unnoticable so I leave it factory.

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Originally Posted by DennyW

The board I am using on mine is a P5P800.

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If you wanted to, you could probably go to ASUS website and check to see if it has a recall on it, might have to Email them but, they got a list on what they had to recall I'm sure.

but if it's been running for 4 years, it's not gonna quit anytime soon. the bad boards burnt up within months.

My board is a Soyo K7M333 it was like $49 at the time I bought it

I just found this deal for $149 searching for myself ( my desktops starting to tire )

http://www.tigerdirect.com/applicati...6047&body=MAIN

AMD 64 X2 3800 ( 2ghz dual core ) socket 939 ( VERY upgradable )

$60- $80 for a decent size hard drive

$50 or so for a good amount of ram

$20-$60 for a cd/ dvd rom.

$ 30-$50 for a PCIE vid card if you want high end graphics

What do ya think the cost would be to update my Atari 400 or the Commadore 64....
Quick funny story, needed to download a medium size file of pix/graphics. My Dell is 2001, put in a floppy, dam file was too big for the last two discs I had, went to my local Long's drugs for a pkg. Kid at the counter looks up and says,"We have not carried those for a couple of years, how about trying a zip drive". Holy shit did I fell stupid. I just ordered and got a new Dell, have not powered it up yet, not sure where it's going etc. I use my system mainly for pictures and video editing, this computer was maxed and stalling with video. Other than overload,she's run fine....

I'm a Mac guy. My Intel iMac does everything that our family needs. I also have XP Pro running on it, just in case I have to visit the Evil Empire.

tom

I just want to participate so I get updates on what you folks find/learn. I have a four year old Toshiba Satellite laptop which was the fastest CPU I could find then at 3.01 GHz as a monoprocessor. I use it for the Internet, WORD for writing the book and number-crunching quantum Chemistry calculations. I have run into overheating on long runs but I have a RubberMaid lap unit that I cut holes in under the PC and that helps cooling. I am worrying over a replacement unit and I am disappointed that the duo core CPUs are slower than my mono-3.01 GHz although I do see that running calculations does conflict with Internet action. I think I will look into a local company here in Virginia that makes souped up game PCs and get something fast for calculations; I don't care about super game graphics as long as I can draw still pictures. I use the laptop like a desktop but sitting in my living room recliner with the TV on in the background. The only advantage of the laptop is when I have to travel so I can take my calculations and results somewhere. I dropped a previous laptop on a gravel driveway and lost some data from the hard drive but it still ran. That means maybe the laptops are a bit sturdier in some ways. My wife has a PC which was one of the last available monoprocessor Pentiums but with VISTA. In our effort to put our main program on a CD in the book we found our program (Visual Basic V5 + WATCOM f77 code) would run on Windows 98, Windows Millennium, Windows XP Home and Windows XP Pro but choked on WINDOWS Vista (at first). Then we found that VISTA is downward compatible to a large extent if you go to the trouble to release a LOT of permissions, so that we now can run our same program(s) on VISTA as well, but it is more complicated to use VISTA. My preliminary interpretation is that VISTA has too many security restrictions and that makes it more complicated. I am interested to learn what you folks find/recommend and inparticular I am interested in the top speed in floating point arithmetic. For the nostalgia buffs with Commodore 64s we gave ours away long ago but I do have (somewhere) a Sinclair with the extra 16K memory, wow!

Don Shillady
Retired Scioentist/teen rodder

I know alot of people who have dealt with tigerdirect and they were not satisifed. When I built mine 2 years ago i went with newegg. They have great prices with excellent service. I have not had any problems at all. even with 2 teens surfing. I agree with everyone else about the vista problems. I like the new vista look and sounds so i put that in while still running xp media. I use my pc for general and also play streaming movies bounced to my tv with no lags. as for the asus I must have gotten a bad one. went out on me in a week. I use a gigabyte board with dual ram and surround sound. I installed a ATI radeon card for hdtv. Now my old 32" tv does not need a hdtv box as it comes through my pc.

DON there is a company near you in richmond called velocity micro that can build to your specs. They are a little pricy but they stand behind their work.

jyardgirl,

Yes that is the name "Velocity Micro". As I progress possibley toward early Alzheimers it is interesting that I can still think/do equations but names come slow!

Don Shillady
Retired Scientist/teen rodder

Denny, there is no limit to the need for speed in Quantum Chemistry computing. Before I retired I participated in some highly competitive internal politics (policy wars) always to try to get the fastest computers while an administration of non-scientists did not understand how much research depends on state-of-the-art computers. When we finally got a 32 CPU parallel system I was told I would never be able to use all the CPU-cycles of the new wonder machine but a month later they were complaining that I was hogging the computer! Actually my present laptop is faster than some mainframes I worked on back in the 80s so the answer to your question is that my next PC should exceed the 3.01GHz benchmarks in floating point arithmetic. The old LINPAK benchmarks still seem a good way to measure computational performance but for PCs there are Whetstones and Drystones and a lot of other benchmarks that depend on graphics speed but not raw number crunching. I am hoping that a game PC may be good since the graphics has to use a lot of sin(theta) and cos(theta) evaluations somewhere in calculating perspective views. Since game PCs often need to use such complicated trigonometry functions there is a good chance they will be optimized for other intensive computations. In my programs the key bottleneck is exp(x) which is used a billion billion times. Another problem is that there is a nasty problem in electronic calculations called the "two-electron-interaction" file in which one must calculate the Coulombic two-body repulsion of every electron with every other elecron and the list quickly requires huge memory resources. In my program I just dimension an array as the largest size the memory will allow and let the automatic overlay swap pieces of this large file to and from disk so I need a large cache memory and a fast disk seek time. The modern approach is to use racks of 256 or more Xeon PCs in parallel but then you need parallel software. For my use I have been pleased that my laptop can do stuff I had to use a mainframe for in the 80's so I am just looking for a fast PC with a large cache memory. I suppose a quad processor has some aspects of parallelism but the bottom line is to run benchmarks. Floating-point benchmarks are like dyno runs for an engine. You can theorize about what computer speed or engine H.P. there should be but the real test is to run a test program or a dyno run. The folks here are very knowledgable so I am listening but I would spec a PC on floating-point benchmarks and cache memory size. Maybe 64 bit PCs are the next wave? Unfortunately my programs use the WATCOM fortran-77 compiler which only treats 32 bit code. I think the 64 bit machines will run 32 bit code but eventually I would need a 64 bit compiler. I may visit Victory Micro and take my programs on a CD for an actual test on my special code. Maybe we could switch this thread a bit to a discussion of engine simulation software? What is the best LOW PRICE engine software?

Don Shillady
Retired Scientist/teen rodder

And to think I started this thread because I feel I need a new PC for internet browsing, saving and fixing a few pictures and maybe a spread sheet or several and have it operate all day without a 'Runtime error 605' or something similar.

Dave, just go buy yourself one of the new Intel based core 2 duo's or the new quad core at the best possible price. It will undoubtably come with all of the niceties that you want including burners, biggie fixed disks, network stuff and plenty of usb ports. Today you can get cheap what would cost you your retirement savings just ten years ago.:eek: :LOL: :LOL:

If you don't need a monitor, get a system without one cheaper. Or if you need one, get one of the new 22 or 24 inch wide screens. I just upgraded my desktop at home with a new 22 ws for about $200. Helps these old eyes from getting worse.:LOL:

You don't really need a super PC to get email and surf the net. You might if you are into doing working with the SETI institute on the side.:LOL:

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Originally Posted by mopar34

Dave, just go buy yourself one of the new Intel based core 2 duo's or the new quad core at the best possible price. It will undoubtably come with all of the niceties that you want including burners, biggie fixed disks, network stuff and plenty of usb ports. Today you can get cheap what would cost you your retirement savings just ten years ago.:eek: :LOL: :LOL:

:LOL:

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Bob,
There is probably a 90% chance that is what I'll do for my new PC. But, I still want to try to spec out a homebuilt and compare. If it ends up too much of my pension bucks for a middle of the road version, then back to the store bought:HMMM: :D

Now for Don...... That's a whole new world of PCs that I have no need:eek: .

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Originally Posted by DennyW

Yeah, the kind Don is talking about, is about a 2500.00 unit. :LOL: .

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The mailperson (being politically correct) just delivered my new Amazon purchased book "Building the Perfect PC". NOW, I'm in trouble

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Originally Posted by IC2

And to think I started this thread because I feel I need a new PC for internet browsing, saving and fixing a few pictures and maybe a spread sheet or several and have it operate all day without a 'Runtime error 605' or something similar.

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Now you know why I chose a Mac.
:D

tom

Just for the record, I checked out Velocity Micro which is indeed near my home in Southside Richmond. They only offer two laptops but interestingly the lower priced C90 with a base price of $1495 can be upgraded with a faster CPU for another $165 and that looks interesting to me. They also offer a super graphics laptop for about $2500 but that does not interest me. Their desktop PCs are generally higher priced but offer top end performance. I had a home-brew PC that started out as an XT and was upgraded through three CPUs on the same motherboard eventually with an overclocked AMD chip set that was compatible with the mother board. Overclocking can lead to overheating and reduced life so it eventually just fried! I ran one hard drive so long that I had to insert a cardboard wedge under one side to get it to turn on a different bearing surface! That kind of stuff is fun but when I got to the book I had to have reliability so I went with a Toshiba Satellite which I am still using.

http://www.velocitymicro.com/

Don Shillady
Retired Scientist/teen rodder