Thanks Whiplash. Glad you're enjoying it.
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Thanks Whiplash. Glad you're enjoying it.
I bought this engine as a "practically new" piece that had only been test run. Up until now I had never been able to verify any of that story. I was pleased to find that the lower end did actually look brand new. There was no staining or other signs to indicate that it had many hours of run time. The parts looked like they had just came out of the box. The cam showed no signs of wear. So far, I'm pleased.
http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x...psjslwodzl.jpg
While I'm tempted to just hook it up and run it, not having any real history on it makes me cautious. The story that came with this engine makes me suspicious of it's history. Also, the hot rodder in me just won't me let run it as is. You know, the little devil on your shoulder that keeps saying "Hot rod it!!!". The early LS engines had some faults that were corrected in later engines. This is a first year engine and I have a few upgrades planned.
It may sound crazy to some, but my plans are to tear it down and inspect everything. Hopefully I'll wind up with a pile of fairly new parts. Then I can reassemble it with the upgrades and be reasonably confident that it will hold together. So far these are my planned changes:
I picked up a set of older CNC ported heads for a good price. They will accept a higher lift than the stock heads and should really improve the breathing. I need to CC them to verify chamber volume.
The rod bolts on the early engines are known to be weak. I'll swap them out for ARP's and have the big ends checked for roundness. I talked to a reputable machine shop and they told me it could be done without pulling the pistons off the rods (they are press fit). He said they will sometimes have to hone them slightly with the ARP bolts.
The oil pump will most likely be changed to a Melling. The early pumps supposedly have cavitation issues and can lose suction at high RPM's.
The cam will get changed. Right now I'm looking at around 224@.050 with somewhere about .580 - .600 lift and 112* lobe separation. The heads will handle more than that, but that has been identified on several forums as a good daily driver type cam for an LS and manual trans. The cam will most likely be a Howard's, but I'm open to suggestions. You out there Tech?
The trunions on the rocker arms will be upgraded for the extra load the cam will put on them.
The cam swap will require the cam position sensor be moved to the timing cover with an LS2 cover and timing gear.
The valley cover will be swapped to an LS6 part. The PCV was moved from the valve covers to the valley cover on that engine to solve a small oil consumption issue.
The LS1 intake is being swapped out for an LS6 to better support what the heads can flow. I also picked up an 80mm BBK throttle body. It's just a little larger than stock, but is "supposed" to flow 30% more. That's according to BBK. I'll also be using a larger 5 wire mass air flow sensor and plumbing cold air to the intake.
I'm going to go to a full return type fuel system and the injectors will be resized.
I have found a tuner within 60 miles that has a good chassis dyno. His dyno can do road simulation tuning and not just full throttle pulls. That's important to me since I want to drive this car like a stocker on the highway. His reputation is good, so I'm willing to take a chance. That's the reason for the rod bolts and oil pump swap. Hopefully, to keep it together on the dyno. It'll probably get pulled on harder there than I ever will. FWIW - My tuner thinks this combo should put about 400 HP(maybe a little more) to the rollers. That should be fun in a 2500 lb car.
He is going to do an initial "safe" tune so that I can break the engine in before we thrash it. That's real important to me. Dyno's scare the crap out of me. I know they are necessary, but I personally know of more than one person that had mechanical carnage on a dyno. Beating on an new unbroken in engine never really sounded like a good idea to me. Looks like I better make sure the driveshaft is up to it.
I've already started collecting some of the parts for the upgrades. I like engine work and I'm looking forward to it. I still have a lot more work to do before I get there though. Guess I better get back to building.
just read thru your build, man you are completely redesigning your chassis/suspension, it looks very sturdy. Nice work. I did rings and bearings on my 5.3 last winter, I wasn't after anymore HP for my stude project, I'll just be happy when I hear it run OK. The LS engines are such a pain to put back together, nothing like a small block chevy or ford of old. Also they are super finicky about the block and head gasket surfaces or those metal gaskets won't seal.
Thanks V8. The chassis on this car couldn't handle the power of a very low power SBC. I had to make some improvements if I wanted to have more power.
I know what you mean about the LS engine assembly. I've been studying them as much as I can. They are certainly different than the older engines I'm used to. My engine is a very early one and can't use the MLS head gaskets. I'm limited to the graphite gaskets. There is a notch in the heads that prevents using the later gaskets.
I had my heads shaved by an old machinist who apparently was not up on the newer ls motors and decided they were not smooth enough for the mls so I used the graphite just to be safe. the guy could not get the cam bearings in right, he kept insisting they were right but when I looked with a mirror they were not lined up with the holes, ended up taking it to another shop to do it. I would recommend checking them to be sure.
A few comments-------don't resize LS fractured cap rods unless you have the OVERSIZED OD bearings-----
Issue of oil pump cavitation is internet hearsay
Many bolts in modern engines are torque to yield and need to be replaced after torqueing only ONE time
Many torque values are torque to an ft lb valve then certain number of degrees rotation after that
Thread lube/ sealer usage is an EXTREMELY important issue
Front/rear covers (crank seal) alignment needs special procedure to insure sealing-----
If using high lift cam with high spring pressures modify rockers with the better roller bearing/pivot shafts
What is the point of the new fasteners needing to be replaced after a single use?
Things like that feel like a manufacturing scam to me.
From an engineering viewpoint, it sounds as if the nominal torque value takes the fastener into its plastic region; Young's modulus. Just doesn't seem like a smart way to do businesses.
Between the expensive throw away bolts and expensive gaskets it doesn't make you want to tear into one of these things unless you have to.
Just remember the new technology invoved with aluminum engines-termal expansion is huge and you need to contain those combustion pressures/heat if your going to change heat to torque----------- and sealing up the new thinner oils does take more precise methods-------
As for the bolts---------if they weren't tightened into an area that did the job you would be blowing out the gaskets-----and without a very PRECISE method guys would be over stressing the block threads -remember its now aluminum, not cast iron---------The old rule of thumb about 1 1/2 times diameter for thread length engagement was left behind in the 90s-or 3 decades ago------or last century---------
Most of these bolts in question are torque to yield and are designed to stretch to add pre-load through the fastner. That being said, they can or do stretch and will break or be weak and not do their job.
Hotrod 46, the inside of that engine does look very nice.
Its really all about the threads in the aluminum blocks( or other components) for many years aircraft was where alum was used to save weight and components had helicoils installed from the intial build-----wasn't used as a repair as is commonly thought-------altho the use of heli coils as an excellent repair did develope over years.
Today the use of torque to yield and throw away after on use is a process to protect the bigger, more complicated , more expensive parts and throwing away used bolts is cheaper than repairing pulled out threads and the results of that-blown gaskets, leaks, etc, etc
After a little research on torque to yield bolts, it appears that my initial assessment was correct: the fastener is taken into the plastic region: it stretches past the point from which it will recover.
And they (bolt) should fail-saving the block!!!!!!!!
The first time I ran across TTY bolts was on a Ford Escort back in the 80's. I was warned by mechanics I knew not to reuse the bolts. I thought it was BS, but I bought new bolts from Ford on their recommendation. I was surprised that they were fairly cheap even at the dealer.
They had to be torqued to a some spec that I can't remember and then turned and additional 90* in two 45* increments. That second 45* really ramped up the pucker factor! I could feel the bolts stretching and it felt like they would strip out or break at any second. After that, I realized why they wouldn't survive another use.
I'll be replacing all the head bolts and the main cap bolts for sure. Actually, I think the short outside head bolts are reusable. The LS2 front cover and the new valley cover came from GM with new bolts.
Thanks for the comments on the LS Jerry. I'm an LS newb for sure. I'm learning that they have a few peculiarities from the old school engines I'm used to.
Wait till you do the harmonic balancer bolt, I had to use a 3 foot extension on the breaker bar. It's a big bolt that is crazy tight. I bought a book on ls motor rebuilding which was very useful.
As par for the course with me the last updates were awhile ago. The holidays always slow down progress in the shop and then we had a short spell of very cold weather for us.
My shop is really just a drafty metal shed with no insulation and when it gets below about 30*, my little heater just doesn't get the job done. Luckily now I can retreat to the small machine shop I added on the back. At least it's insulated and easy to keep warm. This year I rigged up a thermostatically controlled plug and used that to power my diesel fired heater. It does a pretty good job keeping it at "shirtsleeve" temp. Before this I had to start and stop the heater manually, so the temp varied a lot in the tiny little room. It cut my fuel usage in half, too. I finally got to use some of the "junk" I've been collecting. It took longer to find all the parts than to actually build this, though.:D And my wife says I'll never use all this junk.:rolleyes::p
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Ok, so let's get on to some updates.
Even though I had the front brake mounts to carve out, I decided to make some wheel spacers. I finally decided on a set of wheels, but had to get away from the traditional styles that I favored. I wanted something in a Torque Thrust pattern, but no off the shelf wheels fit the way I wanted. I could have gone with custom built wheels, but they would have cost over $500 apiece delivered. That didn't fit my budget right now. I wanted wheels with a large negative offset for a deep dish look, but had to go with a more positive offset and use spacers to get the wheels positioned where I wanted them.
I not a big fan of wheel spacers. Thinner ones in the front are probably not too bad, but simple slip-ons on a driving wheel leaves the studs without a lot of support. There are those that are held on by the original studs and have studs of their own. Probably better, but still a lot of stress on the aluminum spacer body.
I decided to take a slightly different approach and combine the two types. Since my axles have a dual bolt pattern, used the extra bolt circle for additional clamping force. The main studs are still 3" long and the spacers sip over them, but they are supported by close fitting holes in the spacers. Five additional 1/2" grade 8 counter sunk bolts go through the spacer, brake rotor and axle flange and clamp everything together independent of the studs. Hopefully, this dual setup will be stronger than the other styles separately.
I carved the spacers out of 6061 T6. I used the axles as a mandrel in the lathe. I had to pull them anyhow to install the studs. Which brings me to my next item.
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I needed some 3" studs and wanted to use ARP due to their reputation. I found the studs I needed which were the same as a Mustang. I was shocked to find out that they were $150 for 10! :eek:
Now $15 a stud sounds a little high to me so I went looking for a cheaper alternative. It turns out that ARP makes some studs for a Chrysler application that are 3" long and only $50 for 10! Same basic stud with a larger knurled section. Seems like a big price difference considering that the machine time difference couldn't be more than a few seconds on a CNC lathe and that's assuming they started with the same raw blank for both. If the Mustang stud started with a smaller blank (which is likely), then the Chrysler stud took more machine time.
Kind of left a bad taste in my mouth, so I decided to use the Chrysler studs, but that meant making a few mods to the axle flanges. I had to drill out the stud holes for the bigger knurl and relieve the rear of the flange to clear the larger stud head.
In all honesty, if I hadn't been able to do the work myself, it wouldn't have been worth it. I most likely had way more than a $100 worth of machine time in the work, but at least I didn't have to pay the extra c-note for the studs! Small victory. **):rolleyes:
I have learned a lesson though. The next time I order axles, I'll get them with screw-in studs. Cheaper to buy and easier to change.
Choosing a wheel style and size has been a real problem for me on this car. As a matter of fact, it's one of the things that started down the path of this rebuild.
I originally wanted something with a deep dish in a traditional muscle car style like a Torque Thrust or something similar. What I wound up with turned out to be entirely different.
I was surprised to see that a set of American Racing Torque Thrusts I tried out were made in China(cast right in the wheel). It's a real shame. I understand the economics, but it's still a shame. Considering the hit and miss nature of things made there, I worry a lot about quality control (or lack of) on a critical part like wheels. They fit OK, but didn't really hit the looks mark for me. They were the original 60's style TT's in 17", but were only available with a shallow front. Not what I wanted.
I wanted to run 17" wheels because that's about the smallest diameter that has a good selection of high performance street tires available. There are some in 16", but not as many as in the larger sizes. The tire companies just don't seem to be putting a lot of R and D into the older sizes. However, I ran into an issue with the 17's. I tried 2 different sets of them and only the AR wheels would just barely clear the big front brakes. Since there isn't a local place with a selection of wheels, I was having to order them. I was able to return what I didn't use, but return shipping was getting expensive. I decided to go up to 18's to make sure I had plenty of brake clearance. The downside of this decision is that I don't really like the traditional style wheels in sizes over 17".
The wheels I finally picked out are Drift R's by ROH. They are made in Australia. Considering the hoops our fellow rodders down under have to jump through to get their cars through inspection, I feel better about them than something made in China.
They are also "hub centric" and required a small shoulder on the spacer to locate them properly. These are the first set of hub centric wheels I've ever used on a project.
By juggling the offsets and spacer thickness, I was surprised that I was able to fit 18x9's in the front and 18x10's in the rear. They should allow for plenty of rubber all the way around. Right now it looks like I can fit 255's in the front and at least 275's in the back.
I already know that I'm going to have to add some small wheel tubs in the rear, but I was going to have to do that with anything much over 245 anyhow. The bigger wheels allowed for more control arm clearance up front, making the wide front wheels possible. I may have to limit rack travel slightly in front, but I'll have to wait for the tires to make sure.
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For better or worse, these are the wheels.
Thanks for the update and pics. As always, unique solutions with an attention to the details! Way cool.
Thanks 34. I'm glad you're finding something interesting.
After getting the wheels in place, I saw that I had a little problem with the rear shock mounts. I had originally put the lower shock mounts up high so that I didn't have any interference with the Watts link.
That much worked out fine, but due to the wide wheels, there wasn't enough clearance for the coil spring at the top. I swapped out the lower mounts side to side (pass on driver). This lowered the shock mounts, but the shock now interfered with the Watts link mount on the driver side. Due to the link mount being low on the pass. side, it worked fine. There was nothing to do but fab a new link mount for the driver side with clearance for the shock. I was able to reuse the plate that the link mount was welded to.
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Here's a before shot of the driver's side mount.
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The new link mount had to have a relief in it to clear the shock.
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I used a ball peen hammer and formed the curve in the flange across the jaws of my vise.
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You can see the difference between the old part and the new one.
http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x...psgbrc8105.jpg
There shouldn't be any issues now. I tilted the axle to full bump in both directions and everything clears with room to spare.
http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x...ps4lviseix.jpg
No issues with the passenger side.
The upper shock mounts had to be changed, too, since I wanted to pull them in a little closer to the frame. I had to ditch the original adjustable mounts. I didn't feel there was enough clearance with the wheel and shock with the old upper mounts. I fabbed new ones out of a piece of trimmed and reshaped 2x4 tubing. They're just tacked on for now. I'll weld them on later when I pull the body and have more room.
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This is a shot of the tubing being trimmed into shape. I use this technique a lot for different brackets. I'm using a bandsaw, but it could be done with a torch, too.
http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x...pstijir0kd.jpg
After I shaped it, I split the tubing and rewelded it to the right width for the shocks. Actually, the shocks I'll be using will have bearings, so I'll have to add some spacers.
34, my wife and I plan to travel a lot in this car and she says she wants to see New England (we've made it as far as DC on the MC). I hope one day we get close enough and I can look you up. It would be nice to meet some of the people you get to "talk" to on the net, especially those that share your interests.
I'd be thrilled to have you drop in. I hope you can make it a reality!!!
You have so many details built into this ride..... I'd love to see'em up close.
Very nice machine work, I always appreciate the talent of how you can just build something and it works.
53Chevy, thanks. I wish everything I did worked out, but many times it doesn't. I have generated several pieces of high precision scrap on this project.:CRY:
I made my living doing machine and fab work for almost 20 years most of it without any kind of drawings. Many times someone would come in an ask if we could build something with little more than a general description of what it was supposed to do and the details were left up to the builder. Crazy, but that's how things worked in the oil patch back then.
For safety, we way overbuilt stuff. It's something that has been hard for me to get away from. I would have loved to do fab work for a race team, but after I added several pounds of iron to the car, they would most likely have fired me!:LOL:
While I was back on the rear suspension, I went ahead and rebuilt the Watts link brace. I had to remove it when I was fitting the exhaust due to interference. The original brace was made of 1 1/4" square tubing. I looked at modifying the original frame, but decided to just start over. Snaking the tubing around the exhaust was going to be difficult and would have looked odd when done, so I thought I would explore other options.
Because this car is so compact (and crowded) underneath, I made as many parts bolt in as possible to make future servicing a lot easier.
I made the new brace from a piece of 1/4" 6061 aluminum plate I had. I don't have any pictures of the cutting. I didn't think a mill covered in aluminum shavings would be very interesting. The frame end mounts are steel and they will serve double duty as a place to mount the rear sway bar. Both halves of the brace are same. At least it adds a little symmetry to this thing, since the Watts link forces most of the parts to be asymmetrical.
http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x...psbdzemqw0.jpg
Very nice work on those pieces!
I thought it might be time for another series of updates. I've been working pretty hard on the car and just don't seem to have time to get the updates done. Most of these posts will be of work that's been completed for quite a while. Sorry.
Next up is the rear sway bar. Like a lot of other suspension areas on this car, I wanted as much adjustment here as I could get for tuning. My original plan had been to mount the bar under the rearend on the Watts link brace. Once again, I was foiled by the asymmetrical arms on the Watts. I was forced to put it in the only place that there was room and that was near the top of the brace.
I looked at adapting or modifying sway bars from other cars, but didn't come up with anything that looked promising. I did pick up a couple from swap meets and the salvage yard, but wasn't satisfied with them.
I researched making my own. I found a lot of info in the books I had and on the net with all the calculations, but most sources recommended heat treated steel. Some commercial bars were listed as being 4130, but whether they are heat treated or not is anyone's guess.
Making a bar wouldn't be too difficult, but getting it properly heat treated would be. I have access to a small heat treat oven, but it is tiny. No way I could rig something up that would give consistent results on something as long as a sway bar.
To have a good shot at properly heat treated spring steel bar, I used a mini sprint car torsion bar. They are available in different diameters and the arms attach with splines. The splines come in standard OD's so that one set of arms can be interchanged with several bars. Not the cheapest option, but workable for a good quality sway bar. This isn't my idea and has been done by a lot of other people. A similar setup is used for NASCAR sway bars. The NASCAR parts are purpose built for sway bars, though.
Like the new upper shock mounts, I reshaped a piece of tubing for most of the sway bar bearings. I bored some DOM tubing out to accept the Delrin bushings. I could have made the bushings too, but at around $2.00 apiece, it didn't seem worth the time. I didn't see the need for a split pillow block type bearing like I see a lot of people using. They are a lot of trouble to make and since the arms come off these bars, the bar can just be slid out the end.
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Along with the bar I bought some splined aluminum arms made for them, but they were just too bulky to fit on the rear. I shortened them and cut some bolt-on arms out of steel. I still have a small interference issue, but that will be solved when the body comes off. There's just no room to work with the body on. The arms have several adjusting holes in them. By moving the links, the arm can be shortened or lengthened. This changes the effective rate of the sway bar. When the rearend comes out next time, I'll add some adjusting plates with similar holes to the axle tubes for the lower end of the links to attach to.
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This shot is actually of the front bar, but it is essentially the same as the rear, just longer. I forgot to take a picture of the rear bar before bolting it in.
http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x...psaxb3co8q.jpg
You can see how thick the aluminum arms are. They just wouldn’t clear the frame and passenger side exhaust at the same time. The thinner steel arms will, but I will still need to put a small notch in the frame, since I’m not about to reroute the exhaust after all the work that went into it.
You can just see the bar at the top of the Watts brace.
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Thanks for the update(s), I'll have to take some time and study your pics. Always good ideas in there.
Thanks. I've got several more to post. I'll get more up ASAP. I've still got to shrink some of the pictures, but most of the writing is done.
It must be nice to make something and know it's good. Like the last set of wheel spacers I bought, checked Ebay of course, and no I'm not going to buy $30 spacers for a 30k truck. Went to Summit, coughed up $90 for a set and surprise surprise, Made in China.
Yep, I know what you mean. I'm very thankful that I have been able to gather the tools I need to build this stuff. There's no way I could pay someone to do it for me.