351w build

ok so I am really new to this but I have been reading and researching A LOT and I really want to start on this as soon as I get all my money together. Everyone I talk to about this tells me to have a goal or plan and I have a basic one. we will see what I find out So... I want to build a late 60's to mid 70's Ford with a carbeurated 351w. This is going to be a street car with very very occasional strip use. I want to be around 400-450 hp. (If possible for somewhat lower budget) and Im not sure what my budget is going to be as I am going to be doing this over time but I want this to be a lower budget build and not sacrifice quality with cheap parts. when I say lower budget i dont mean I want all cheap worthless parts, I mean I dont want the best of the best most expensive parts. What I am wondering is what kind of measurements and ratios also bore measurements do i need to meet to achieve this. also what kind of budget am I looking at to build the motor with these specs.

To do 4-450 Hp with a 351W is tough to make those numbers without a good pair of heads, camshaft, induction system. Then the cast crank and big main bearings can be a major drawback to rpm. More to consider, but that's the basics. BUT, put your plan and a set of budgetary numbers together and let see where it goes from there as just throwing parts at these engine (or any brand engine) wont see those Hp figures

And to add a bit more, your going to need to make sure the brakes and suspension are also setup to support that horsepower.

I'm doing the same thing with a 468. Good luck man

Hi Shawn, you’ve been given some good information so far, and I’d like to throw in my 2 cents.

First off I would strongly suggest you not get wrapped up around a Horsepower number like so many people do especially on a street engine. Horsepower is merely a number derived from the amount of torque an engine makes at a given rpm number and taken out of context is pretty much worthless and good for nothing more than bragging rights (hell most people guess ....optimistically...or lie about it anyway).

Personally I would concentrate on making the most torque in a useable RPM range and let the HP numbers worry about themselves. A good place to start is by looking at various engine builds that have actual dyno charts and comparing the changes that are made by different component combinations.

You also really need to consider HOW the engine is going to be used the majority of the time. Is this going to be a toy or are you looking at depending on it for daily transportation, or occasional long trips. If it’s going to be driven a lot, you probably want to take a long look at what compression ratio you want based on fuel that you have available and if you want (or can afford) an engine that has to be run on premium, mid grade or regular gas (just a hint, you can get by with a bit more compression using aluminum heads).

That being said, for a 351W with mostly stock internals you’re not really going to want to spin it much higher than about 6000 RPM max. After that point you are looking at a lot of upgrades ($$) to make it have a long life. It kind of goes back to looking at the Dyno chart thing an engine that makes 450 horse power at 7000 RPM doesn’t do you much good if it blows apart at 6500 RPM on the third run. For street/highway driving the RPM range you’re probably realistically wanting to operate at will be between 2200-3000 RPM.

Also something to keep in mind is how much work the engine is going to have to do and that is going to be dependent in large part on what vehicle you are going to be putting it in. I know at this point you haven’t really made that decision, but it should be kept in the back of your mind while your selecting parts. You mention 60’s-70s Fords, so here are some generalities that may help. The full size Fords of that era (Galaxies) are heavy usually very close to 4000 pounds and it takes a lot of torque to get them moving. The midsize cars (Fairlanes, Granadas etc) are a bit lighter usually in the 3200-3600 pound range. Mustangs can be all over the board depending on what year you’re looking at, Maverics and certain Mustangs you’re looking at 3000-3300 pounds. The sub-compacts like Mustang IIs, and Pintos can be put on a diet and gotten down to 2800-3000 pounds. Basically a 351 I would build for a Pinto would be a lot different than one I would build for a Galaxie.

I know that I’m saying seems to be all over the place, but they are all factors that need to be looked at in unison when picking out a combination for your motor. They can be all boiled down to a few questions however to narrow the parameters of the build.

Size (weight) of the vehicle it’s going in.

Is it a toy or daily transportation.

How important is fuel mileage and cost?

How it will be driven (street/highway/strip) if highway what is the max speed....if strip use how quick are you wanting to go.

Transmission type (manual or automatic, overdrive or not).

How much are you looking at spending.....an actual $ amount.

Tire size and gearing will also factor in at a certain point (as will convertor stall if an automatic) but that usually is looked at after useage, engine parameters and vehicle type are set.

ok mike, thanks man that post actually made a lot of sense, being inexperienced I tend to get over excited and dream a lot. I told you I was new lol. If HP shouldnt be looked at we will try your outlook on this as you seem to know your stuff so i would like the car to be somewhat of a toy, but in the summer I would like to daily drive it maybe 30 days or less a season. also I would like to take it to the drag strip maybe 2 or 3 times but times arent a big concern, also when I daily drive it I would be on the highway some so I would want some kind of top speed, as long as the car is fast. for this build fuel milage and fuel cost wouldnt be a concerne and I wouldnt mind having to use premium gasoline either. I would also like a manual transmission, probably a 4 speed Im thinkin but If you think otherwise Im listening to opinions, as far as a spending budget I dont have a particuliar budget but I dont want to spend 10k on the engine. I would be building this kinda slowly so it would be a little money here and a little there so I know it would add up but thats fine as long as its not all at once, also Im not sure if I should bore it out to be bigger but that is also another question too. as far as compression, Im not sure where I should be I dont know much about compression measurements compared to power or torque. so I know this isnt exactly all the info looking for but were getting a little further

I jus don't know what measurements, ratios, size, or compression I need to achieve this. Anyone have some ideas?

Why not find a late model Mustang or Camaro and start there? Already comes with a V8 in a lot of cases, transmissions are optional.. Play with that and use it as a learning experience. A lot of "speed parts" are available for them and they can do well at the track or street driving. Then as time goes by you can keep your eyes open for something that "trips your trigger" plus you can always cannabilize the mustang/camaro when the time comes...

Food for thought!?!?

That's not a bad idea but ireally don't like newer model cars they just don't do what classic cars do fo me. Plus I want to build a motor so I really don't want to build a motor and put it into anything otherthen a classic. I know wat I want to do and I have my mind made up. I don't mean to sound rude... I'm sorry I mean no disrespect or dis. You know what you are talking about and I know you are tying to help me. Thank you for your input I listen to every opinion and I respect every single post I read

I know I can do it I just have to figure out how to determine what sizes are needed and what measurements/ratios I need for what I want

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Originally Posted by adrenaline

That's not a bad idea but ireally don't like newer model cars they just don't do what classic cars do fo me. Plus I want to build a motor so I really don't want to build a motor and put it into anything otherthen a classic. I know wat I want to do and I have my mind made up. I don't mean to sound rude... I'm sorry I mean no disrespect or dis. You know what you are talking about and I know you are tying to help me. Thank you for your input I listen to every opinion and I respect every single post I read

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No worries! It's just an idea! What usually happens tho' is your trying to build your ride while it has to do daily duty and somewhere in between your butt is getting chafed 'cause of the double duty. Been there, done that and bought the tee shirt! It's not impossible to be sure 'cause some people do pull it off!

It's just making the project harder so you have to be aware of a possible headache is all I'm saying!

If you don't have the car yet, what's the big rush putting an engine together??? I don't like to have fresh engines sitting around for a couple years before they ever get ran, too easy for things to go wrong in the engine IMO.

Well I'm wanting to start fresh from a bare block and rebuild new. I have 2 daily drivers so this won't be used other then as a toy and not until it is finished. I have time and I have some extra money so I just want to be ale to start but all that's holding me up is trying to learn about determining what I need to accomplish what I want. That's all I'm just not familiar with figuring out the measurements/ ratios needed I don't want to start buying parts that won't fit or that won't do what I want

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Originally Posted by Dave Severson

If you don't have the car yet, what's the big rush putting an engine together??? I don't like to have fresh engines sitting around for a couple years before they ever get ran, too easy for things to go wrong in the engine IMO.

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When I am getting close to finishing I will buy a car. I am always looking, I just havnt found the right one yet I know of 3 or 4 I want for sure I jut havnt found the ONE of those. Its between. A 67 mustang coupe or fastback I like both. A 70- 71 torino. a late 60s fairlane. One of those and possibly a 63-65 galaxie

I think I would go with a good stroker kit for the 351W. I've had a couple of the 408 ci strokers and they run very strong!!!! Hard to beat what you get in a stroker engine package if you go buying the parts individually. Last one I got was from Competition Products, all good stuff an made in the US even!!!!

Here's a link to a similar kit;

http://www.competitionproducts.com/H...fo/RAPB408FID/

Oh, yeah, had Tricflow heads on it, too

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Originally Posted by Dave Severson

I think I would go with a good stroker kit for the 351W. I've had a couple of the 408 ci strokers and they run very strong!!!! Hard to beat what you get in a stroker engine package if you go buying the parts individually. Last one I got was from Competition Products, all good stuff an made in the US even!!!!

Here's a link to a similar kit;

HRC, Pro Series Race Assembly, Ford SB (408), 4.030" Bore-Competition Products

Oh, yeah, had Tricflow heads on it, too

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My brother has a 72 mustang and he pulled out the 289 and is in the process of building a 408 for it. So would I have to bore it .040? I think that's it right? What I am wondering is for my build what measurements should I have inside. Meaning like angle of plugs. Intake runners combustion chamber, exhaust valve, valve springs, max lift. My brother told me what sizes he is putting on his but I don't know what is best for me. I don't necesserally need exact measurements just ranges for different possibilities. He is building to put a supercharger and I am not so his build is going to be a lot different then mine.

Well, that kit is a .030 overbore on the 351 block with flat top pistons. The heads had 2.02" intakes 1.60" exhaust and if memory serves me correctly 64CC chambers and 180 runner size.

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Originally Posted by Dave Severson

Well, that kit is a .030 overbore on the 351 block with flat top pistons. The heads had 2.02" intakes 1.60" exhaust and if memory serves me correctly 64CC chambers and 180 runner size.

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Ok so how do you figure out which size of each of those you want for different purposes of th car. I mean, I know you can go with different sizes for different things I just don't know what the ranges are to figure them out. I don't necessarily want t be told every little thing to buy and what size id like to try to figure out some of the things myself but I would also like some help on how to determine what size of what is best for me. And by the way. I really appreciate all of the help you are giving me. I know it probably gets annoying newbies askin a lot of dumb questions all of the time

Bore and Stroke are determined by what size engine you want to run. Chamber size is one of the critical numbers in determining the Compression Ratio. Valve size and runner size I just go with what I know worked good for the street. Had it been an all out race engine then I would have used a 2.06" intake and a 200 or 210 runner. Experience and listening to the guys and companies that build racing engine is where a lot of this information comes from.

Thanks man I really appreciate everything. So do you hae a project you are working on right now

Yeah, way too many projects going at once!!!!! (As usual):LOL::LOL::LOL:

That information helps quite a bit Shawn, the one thing that is missing though is the vehicle weight.....as I mentioned I would definitely build a 351W in a Pinto a lot differently than one for a Galaxie (and it happens I have built 351s for both LOL)

To start at the basics the first priority will be building the bottom end (short block) of the engine. Regardless of what you do the bottom end is the critical end as far as the engine staying together.

The first step will be actually picking the block you will be using. Personally I think I would look for an 85-95 block as it’s already set up for roller lifters. If you use an earlier block, roller lifter can be retrofitted or a flat tappet cam used. There is nothing wrong with a flat tappet engine, however with the current oils a roller cam would likely last a bit longer and it does free up some power over the flat tappet cams. The block should be completely cleaned and checked by the machine shop. If necessary the deck surface should be milled flat and the main journals line honed. Over boring the engine is done primarily to ensure a good cylinder and for a street motor should only be done to the minimum oversize necessary. Any displacement or power gains even at .060 oversize will be minimal, and large overbores (over .060) run the risk of overheating or cracking cylinders.

For a primarily street motor that will turn no more than 6000 RPM without power adders (supercharging/ NOS etc) the stock crank and rods will do fine. If necessary the crank should be turned the minimum undersize necessary to clean up the journals. The rods should be resized. Balancing is pretty much an optional operation that can also free up some horsepower, but is not really necessary unless a lot of parts have been mixed and matched (rods from one engine, crank from another, and new pistons).

Pistons choice will be dependent on a few factors. First is piston type; Cast, Hypereutectic, and forged. Cast pistons are basically OE style and lowest cost. The Hypereutectic are a bit more pricy but are a stronger piston, however they are also more brittle, and more prone to damage from detonation. Forged is the most expensive and strongest piston, and suitable for power adders like NOS and super/turbo charging. In most street applications with a relatively stock motor and 6000 RPM limit the cast pistons will do fine. JMO but if I felt the need for a stronger piston, personally I’d skip right over the hypers and go to a forged unit. After choosing the type of piston, the next step will be to choose the part number that will provide the desired compression ratio for the heads being used.....basically you need to make the piston/head selection decision at the same time.

Now the heads, cam and intake which must all work together........ and this is where reading dyno charts comes into play.

In general terms the more compression the more power the engine is capable of making.....the limiting factor for compression will be the quality of fuel available. Generally speaking the static compression ratio for an iron head motor with premium pump gas will be limited 9-9.5:1and 10-10.5:1 for aluminum heads. But static compression is only a part of what has to be looked at.....the other part is the dynamic compression ratio. This gets into a long involved discussion involving cam profiles, bleeding off cylinder pressure, volumetric efficiency etc so rather than type it all out here I would strongly suggest you type “dynamic compression ratio” into a search engine and do some reading. It’s your pistons and cylinder heads that will determine the static compression ratio of your engine.

When looking at heads you will also need to look at valve and port size, and depending on your application bigger is not always better. Larger valves and ports will allow more air/fuel mixture into the cylinders, but if the air fuel mixture is moving too slowly the fuel will fall out of suspension, and makes the engine “lazy” at lower RPM. Basically this is where you need to know what RPM you’re targeting your engine for. An engine designed to be efficient at 5500 RPM is not necessarily a lot of fun in a car driven 99% of the time at 2400 RPM.

So now we are really down to HAVING to look at the car (weight) and how it is going to be driven to really start making part selections. As I mentioned earlier I would definitely look at a different combination for a 4000 pound car than I would for a 3000 pound car. To do that I’ll make some assumptions.....the car will be driven primarily on the street and see occasional highway use at 75 MPH. Max RPM will be 5800 RPM. I want to be able to cruise on the highway between 2200 and no more than 3000 RPM (the cruise RPM will be determined by tire size and gear ratio....it is also where an overdrive transmission really helps).

Now on a 4000 pound car I would be looking to make as much torque as possible at the lower RPM range just to get the heavy toad moving. As a general rule of thumb I can get the torque in the lower RPM range, but I’m going to sacrifice power in the upper RPM range. That being the case I’ll be reading dyno charts for a combination that will produce as much torque as possible right off idle. This usually means 1200 RPM and up.......when you start looking at parts combinations with the torque being produced at this lower RPM, they generally run out of steam by 3500-4000 RPM.

In the case of a 3000 pound car, it will not take as much power to get the mass moving, so I can afford to lose a bit of bottom end torque and move the power band higher in the RPM range, basically instead of running out of steam at 4000 RPM it will pull strong to say 5500 RPM (think on ramps and the drag strip).

Of course you also get more flexibility with an overdrive transmission...but that’s a discussion for another time.

As you can see you really need to set the parameters that the engine will operate in before you start making parts selections to get the combination where it needs to be. Once you have that information then it’s simply using the dyno charts to see how different components interact with each other to get the combination where it needs to be in the RPM range.

As always, well said MikeP!

Mike - good information

(I do have to ask - are you a secretary by any chance? It would take me a week to type that :whacked: )

".....are you a secretary by any chance? It would take me a week to type that....."

:LOL::LOL:

No but I did a lot of report writing/typing back in my military days.

Not as fast as I used to be though, or this reply would have been done yesterday.

.

Thanks a lot mike. I appreciate how you broke it down for me. I know car wise its inbetween 5 cars I'm just not sure what car I want. I'm thinkin probably a 65 to 69 mustang. I have other choices but that one is on the top of my list. I've always loved stangs. Those are pretty light compared to some of he other body styles of cars I'm looking at. If I take a 351 block to a 408 will that fit without cutting nd welding? I know some of those came with a straight 6 so I'm just hoping I can find one with a 289. I'm thinkin my engine should fit in the v8 body style but I'm not sure of the 6. Oh well I will keep looking. And once again. Thank you

Building the engine to a 408 stroker will not physically alter the the external dimensions of the engine. The 6 Cylinder engine compartments are the same physical size as the V8, just a motor mount change, but you will want ot look at suspension, brake and cooling system upgrades along with a possible rear end upgrade.

The 351 based engine should slip right in, but you will definately want to install a set of full legnth headers to get the maximum benefit from what ever engine combination you end up using.

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Originally Posted by adrenaline

I know car wise its inbetween 5 cars I'm just not sure what car I want. I'm thinkin probably a 65 to 69 mustang. . I've always loved stangs. Those are pretty light compared to some of the other body styles of cars I'm looking at. I know some of those came with a straight 6 so I'm just hoping I can find one with a 289. I'm thinkin my engine should fit in the v8 body style but I'm not sure of the 6. Oh well I will keep looking.

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If you find a pre 67 Mustang with a 6 cylinder, it'll have a lighter suspension and will need to be updated to a 8 cylinder setup. Not a big deal, it all bolts in. The 289 was last used in 67 also. In 68 Ford began the use of the 302, If you do find a 289 in a 68 it'll be somewhat of a rarity. They are out there but rare. In 67 Ford went to a larger Mustang to be able to use the 390 FE, so that makes getting a 351 in easier.
Hope it helps some.

Ok so I've been pricing out a lot of things for the 408 build and either I am looking at too big of a price or the 408 just isn't for me yet. I don't have a particular budget but te 408 parts I was looking at loked like around 7k for the whole motor. So what I am wondering does anyone hae some ideas for a cheaper set up without sacrificing quality or is that petty much what a 408 is going to cost me in parts? If so does any one hve some other route ideas for me? Still want to do a v8. I would rather do the 408 if I can fnd a cheaper setup

Watch sites like Racing Junk, Craigslist, Epay... sometimes you can find someone bailing out of a project and get a deal...

OH, there's an old saying, Speed costs money. How fast can you go?

So could someone maybe point me towards a good 408 stroker kit. crank pistons balancing for a decent price.my cylinders are probably going to be .040 over. im looking for quality still but one of the guys on here told me about one from comp but it was 2700. it was a very quality kit but im looking for something a little cheaper. maybe less then 1400. also I am probably going to use edel performer rpm heads so I would like the crank and pistons kit to go well with those heads. also a good cam to go with that. I know its a lot to ask for but I know there is a way to build this for under 4500.

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Originally Posted by adrenaline

That's all I'm just not familiar with figuring out the measurements/ ratios needed I don't want to start buying parts that won't fit or that won't do what I want

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Here's where you want to start.....click on 41 used from $4.99....
Amazon.com: Auto Math Handbook HP (0075478010202): John Lawlor: Books

While you are waiting for Tech's recommendation to arrive, here's an on-line site that will give you some basics: Wallace Racing - Automotive Calculators

Richard - thanks - I've been looking for that one but just couldn't Google the right name - I'm ordering a copy for myself

thanks techinspector I just ordered that book from amazon waiting for it in the mail. I really appreciate all the feedback and tips. thank you also IC2

You can install any small block Ford in a Mustang even if it came with a six , the engine bay is designed for the largest engine available for its year . But I would go to a 302 roller and get the RPM's from it for speed . I have a 351 and am looking at torque number with it going into a 37 Ford Coupe , will need more torque to get it rolling .

I am not building race cars though just some good old fashioned Iron .

I may drive up to Pat to assembly a bullitt proof putter for the 37 .

.. Did this 351W engine ever get built? I have a 351W around 425HP that I built fairly cheaply, around $1,000...

.. Of course, my first question in this thread would have been WHY a 351W... not that there is anything wrong with them...