EFI Options

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10-10-2009, 04:50 PM
rspears

EFI Options

I am looking at EFI for a 347 stroker and looking for intake ideas. The new Edelbrock ProXT looks pretty nice, but it is also new and unproven. Any ideas for an EFI induction system? Also, if I do go EFI it will be true multiport injection as opposed to batch fire (triggering groups of four injectors at a time, or worse all at once) or TBI. The aftermarket ECU systems have evolved a lot - FAST, BS3, and others. Looking at multiport, individual injector firing does anyone have experience/recommendations on a computer system? Right now the Big Stuff 3 seems to be the strongest, but I am in a learning mode.
10-10-2009, 05:46 PM
Dave Severson

BBK has a new intake out now too that's supposed to be a real performer.... Can't remember the name of it, think it was released about 6 months ago or so.... Don't know poop about the ECU stuff----a guy up in Watertown has a 347 with the FAST controls on it, runs really strong. I think Andy the chassis dyno guy set it up, could get you his number if you want?????
10-11-2009, 05:33 AM
rspears

Dave,
Sure, I will talk to Andy. PM me his number, and I will give him a call. I'm surprised that we don't have more aftermarket ECU guru's that have been down this path and know which product is user friendly and works well.
10-11-2009, 10:23 AM
jerry clayton

We have done a lot of dyno tune work on various EFI cars, especially supercharged ones--there are now 6 dyno shop operators in the area who call us for the jobs that are over there head---

The Big Stuff is the leader right now as Fast has fallen behind--

There are some systems out there that use a Ford computor and we do a chip install deal---with it you can have 3 different tunes at flip of switch--stock ford, and 2 custom--like for street, race gas etc

The possibilities are endless and the biggest re occurring problems are owner induced---vacume leaks, poor selection of e-bay componentry,etc---
10-11-2009, 12:08 PM
rspears

Quote:

Originally Posted by jerry clayton

The Big Stuff is the leader right now as Fast has fallen behind-----

Jerry,
Thanks for the reply, and your BS3 comment is what I am hearing locally, too. Have you had any opportunity to look at Edelbrock's new ProFlo XT controller? From what I have seen they are using some of the EFI Company technology, and the EFI guys seem to be doing good things on the high end - off-road (Baja type), off-shore big boats, etc. Their system seems pricey, but then it includes everything in one coordinated package - sensors, ECU, harness, injectors, throttle body & manifold.
10-11-2009, 12:22 PM
jerry clayton

I haven't seen there new stuff, but the earlier versions had limited adjustibility--you have to send the unit back for adjustments

one of the big issues we see is that the guys don't upgrade the fuel system to match hp potential of moter. A stock pump for 302 won't feed 600 hp

and vacume leaks
10-11-2009, 02:33 PM
w2zero

While I like the Ford efi, I hate their appearance. If I liked a misshapen lump of alloy covering my engine I would just buy a new car. It's no wonder that so many put GM's in their rods since their efi looks good too. So, I'm rolling my own intake. It is still long in process since I can't shake this pneumonia lately but here are some pics. http://s6.photobucket.com/albums/y237/w2zero/ Basically stock 86-93 GT40 lower intake and 70mm tb and maf sensor with my own alloy bits in between.

The lower flange is nearly done so I can plug in the tubes once they are polished then finish off the upper plate to an oval shape and mill a step in it to match the hole in the plenum. The plenum and transition from the tb are right at 302 cubic inches volume. Once they are tacked up I can corner my buddy for some tig time he owes me.

This should look right at home under the hood of my 64 Fairlane.
10-11-2009, 05:35 PM
rspears

w2zero that will be a nice intake setup. I agree on the stock Ford and many of the older aftermarket manifolds, but I kind of like the BBK and the new Edelbrock ProFlo XT that bring the throttle body out front. I am mainly looking for better efficiency and better tunability across the whole power band with EFI.

Jerry, agree the older Edelbrocks were quite limited having to send chips back & forth. This new one is much more flexible, if it performs as advertised. Continuing to look.
10-11-2009, 05:41 PM
Dave Severson

I did a bit of looking on that new Edelbrock, the XT Plus.. With the tuner, looks like the issues with the older set isn't a problem anymore. But, the new BBK just looks vicious!!!!!! Whatever that's worth....
10-12-2009, 10:32 AM
uppster

This fuel injection stuff almost seems like a dark science to me. I am going to go with a throttle body type for my LSX, but I am having a hard time getting some good info that I can understand. I hope this thread turns into something really good.
10-12-2009, 04:37 PM
w2zero

Exactly uppster, I know nothing and I can prove it! That's why I'll stick with plug and play for now. The fuel end of things won't change and the air coming in won't know the difference as the MAF sensor takes care of it. My choice of the Ford ecm is for convenience and if necessary, it can be flashed or cracked and reprogrammed plus it appeals to my basic hot rod belief in diy cheaply. I want it to be inexpensive, easy, and look sixties compatible. It keeps my tiny brain occupied for a while too.
10-12-2009, 07:43 PM
Ken Thurm

2 Attachment(s)

This is what I built for my new roadster, with the GM off road computer. The new GM computer is pretty easy to tune, easy wiring harness. I used a FAST system in my other roadster, I don't care for their's.
Ken
10-13-2009, 04:58 AM
rspears

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ken Thurm

This is what I built for my new roadster, with the GM off road computer. The new GM computer is pretty easy to tune, easy wiring harness. I used a FAST system in my other roadster, I don't care for their's.
Ken

So Ken,
Is the GM off road computer available standalone aftermarket, or do you send your vehicle ECU to an aftermarket shop to be modified? Is it fully programmable for firing order, or just selectable for the two GM firing orders?
10-13-2009, 08:40 AM
jerry clayton

Just remember firing orders are dependant on how they number the cylinders--and theres only a couple variations---but anyhow ---all you have to do is switch wires for spark plugs and injectors
10-13-2009, 09:32 AM
lotsatoys

For those who want "the look" but with OEM dependability, efi can be pretty flexable in ways a carb can not. I went through a Cadillac Northstar phase a couple years ago and wanted a Hilborn injector type look, so I built the system below using some Suzuki GSXR 600 TBs. The manifold on a Northstar is dry, so it was easier to build than some brands would be, but it still shows what can be done with EFI.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nhoAR3UfLRo

I don't really know much about FI either, but by using all the stock injectors, rails, sensors etc., the system doesn't really know it's not stock anymore. The system above is on a test engine in my shop, but there's also one in a Fiero that I drive/show on a regular basis, so yes, it does work just fine.

Lotsa
10-13-2009, 12:32 PM
Ken Thurm

It's a separate part, not for highway use and all that. I think they use the brain out of a STS and take out all the whistles and bells and leave the engine management system then tweak it. It comes with generic program to get you going then you can tune to your specific needs.
Ken
10-13-2009, 04:07 PM
rspears

I learned a few things today talking to Erik at the House of Boost, a tune/install shop in the KC area that generally works on outrageous HP engines, like an 1100 RWHP Mustang - crazy fast, but still streetable. These are my interpretations, and my limited understanding after an hour with the guys doing the installations.

It seems that 600HP is the real break point - below you can use what you want from TBI to direct port injection, and from batch fire to individual fired injectors. The real key to having to spend the extra money to fire injectors individually (more ECU) is that the big injectors that are needed to flow to the >600HP engines generally can't turn down far enough to give good control at idle - batch firing (groups of four, generally) pushes the engine too rich at idle so individual firing is the answer, or even going to multiple injectors per cylinder, and turning some off at idle.

For an engine in the <600HP range the ECU can control the A/F ratio across the load range in batch fire mode, or even using TBI. In fact, there are said to be some advantages to having the injectors farther away from the head, to gain the cooling effect of the fuel in the air which tends to increase the density of the charge. It really comes down to the "look" that is desired for the "lower" HP applications (I'm still having trouble with a 425HP engine being "lower" HP:LOL: One can go "trick" and eliminate the distributor, firing hidden coil packs from the ECU, and an "in your face" throttle body and air cleaner setup; or keep a traditional distributor/MSD box for timing, and let the ECU handle only the A/F ratio, hiding the TB under a traditional air cleaner, looking like a four barrel carb to the casual observer. The beauty of the better aftermarket ECU's is the A/F ratio map that lets you tune point by point, for all power conditions, viewable via serial port on a laptop. The ugly is the ECU cost:(

Not sure what I will end up with yet, but I feel I have a little better understanding of the basics, and that I don't "need" direct port, individually controlled injectors for a "little" 347:CRY::D
10-13-2009, 04:46 PM
lotsatoys

I don't know Ford systems, but for GM it's really hard to beat a GM computer IMHO. OEMs have spent millions on developement, so why not take advantage of that? advantages are: lower cost and able to learn your setup, whereas most aftermarket systems only know what you teach them from day one. some OEM systems have been hacked wile many have not, so of course you'd look for a well know OBD1 system. I tried to post a you-tube link here a day or two ago to show what can be done with mostly stock components and some fabrication time, but the moderators apparently haven't "approved" my post yet. :rolleyes: . bottom line is not to over-think it. EFI isn't as hard as we tend to make it.

lotsa
10-13-2009, 05:08 PM
w2zero

The 600hp break point is right at the max a stock Ford smallblock will handle without splitting down the middle. I'll never be shooting for that unless I buy an aftermarket HD block. I build to please me and not a dyno with a run to Bremerton for an afternoon of T&T seeing if the car is running better. Thirty miles over, thirty back, four bucks for bridge toll and a 12mpg average including racing. Cheap and the most fun you can have with your pants up.
10-13-2009, 05:52 PM
rspears

Quote:

Originally Posted by lotsatoys

I don't know Ford systems, but for GM it's really hard to beat a GM computer IMHO. OEMs have spent millions on developement, so why not take advantage of that? advantages are: lower cost and able to learn your setup, whereas most aftermarket systems only know what you teach them from day one. some OEM systems have been hacked wile many have not, so of course you'd look for a well know OBD1 system. I tried to post a you-tube link here a day or two ago to show what can be done with mostly stock components and some fabrication time, but the moderators apparently haven't "approved" my post yet. :rolleyes: . bottom line is not to over-think it. EFI isn't as hard as we tend to make it.

lotsa

From what I have seen so far I cannot disagree, and that is why I asked Ken if his GM computer could accept an assigned firing order. The problem with Ford is the break to modular motors in '95/'96 which means you are looking at a 15 year old computer. Another thing I have against the OEM units is the lack of a serial or USB port, so you must rely on finding someone with a OBD1 or 2 to help get to the source of any problems. I cannot argue with your logic on the learning mode, and the millions spent on R&D, nor the "don't over think it" advice. It is not rocket science.
10-14-2009, 05:14 PM
w2zero

Nor is it brain surgery. Crack the 15 yo Ford ecm and clean the epoxy off the contacts and it is ready for the interface with the computer. Not that you would need it for 425 hp. An Obd 1 or 2 reader isn't expensive as a tool in the shop. Probably a lot less than some of the computers in question.

Only problem with EFI and some cam selections is idle quality and that can be solved with a hotrodder work around add on to the IAC servo base. If I decide on more power then I need to recalibrate the MAF sensor and plug in bigger injectors with an adjustable fuel pressure regulator. Next bump would include a bigger fuel pump, higher rated press reg, bigger injectors and new plumbing for the fuel lines as the stockers won't handle the pressure.

Were I rodding a mod motor, I might consider that ecm although they will put out incredible hp with a stand alone dis and a sheet metal intake with a 750+ carb.
10-14-2009, 05:48 PM
lotsatoys

end of page one. my you tube link "appeared" finally.

lotsa
10-14-2009, 06:04 PM
w2zero

Nice vid. Like it a lot.
10-14-2009, 07:03 PM
Mike52

Quote:

Originally Posted by lotsatoys

end of page one. my you tube link "appeared" finally.

lotsa

Your You Tube link was there yesterday, I watched it, very nice work by the way!!

Mike
10-15-2009, 10:45 AM
rspears

Quote:

Originally Posted by w2zero

Nor is it brain surgery. Crack the 15 yo Ford ecm and clean the epoxy off the contacts and it is ready for the interface with the computer. Not that you would need it for 425 hp. An Obd 1 or 2 reader isn't expensive as a tool in the shop. Probably a lot less than some of the computers in question....

w2zero,
I'm interested in your comment about interface to a computer being so easy. Is the contact wiring that is required documented on the Ford forums somewhere?
10-15-2009, 01:00 PM
lotsatoys

I'm interested in that information also. I mean shucks, us GM guys just plug into the diagnostic port that comes with the car. it must be a Ford thing ;)

lotsa
10-15-2009, 04:41 PM
w2zero

I'll have to do some digging in my favorites. That will be fun with the utter lack of organization there.
10-15-2009, 04:56 PM
w2zero

Well that was less than fruitful. I did find this on google though. It wasn't available back when I was looking before. http://v8tvshow.com/content/view/104/28/

What I was referring to before was a bunch of engineering students that had come up with a site that had freeware to do the trick. Could they be behind this Tweaker program? Damned if I know but then it has been about ten years since I was digging into this.